Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
mine is supposed to be rigged so it will work for icelandics,. but i guess teev is not an icelandic he is a hippo maybe ? \Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
I don't know how the Free-N-Easy saddle works. Is it designed to overlap the should like the American Flex? Yes, supposedly it can overlap the shoulder. We HAD to overlap to get it to fit, and it DID seem to work for something like 6-9 months. Hard to say an exact time, because it came on gradually, but it looked perfect for at least a few months. I know that Robyn Hood has mentioned that is common - that a horse may initially feel better in a new saddle, because it gives relief to his old pain spots. However, it seems sometimes to take weeks to months for the new problem areas to arise. I don't remember how many saddles we tried that looked perfect for an initial period, only to show problems within six months. Sometimes I think it takes that long for previously atrophied muscles to regrow, and find their new limit. I see it in young, still maturing horses a lot, but you can see it in mature horses too. Remember that Flex Panels don't have much - some NONE - adjustability in the width of the front gullet. The Free N Easy had about an inch of adjustability, but that means that some horses will be on the cusp between widths. I don't think the OrthoFlex's have any width adjustment at all - can't remember about the AmericanFlex. A horse will change in width with fitness, maturity, age, etc., and having flex in other dimensions can't help that. That was a helpless feeling when we realized the FnE saddle was the problem. Cary had found the perfect horse, and we'd already tried and rejected a bunch of saddle. I had no idea what to look at next - that's when we tried the Fhoenix saddle, whose pictures I sent yesterday. I never expected the Sensation to be a long-term solution for them, but it's still working, and they've ridden longer rides in it than in any other saddle. I'd heard too many warnings that treeless saddles shouldn't be used for large riders. I guess Skjoni never read those warnings. He never literally complained about the saddle though. Sina and a few others are much more direct in expressing their discomfort. She will get antsy when I'm about to do up the girth, then she doesn't want to do anything but pace...or she'll stand still and refuse to move at all. She's the easy kind to deal with, because she lets me know. Some Icelandic's are so stoic that they are very hard to read. I think about Loftur, who let us ride him when we first got him, but when the vet checked him a month or two later, he said he'd never seen so much stored up pain in a horse - he was hurting everywhere. (No wonder that Loftur was bolting with his prior owners.) Skjoni is more like Loftur, but just not as extreme. I thought about Loftur when I watched the saddle-fitting videos on Stan Hirson's blog. That last horse in his video had a good bit of muscle atrophy from the saddle, and apparently just been taking and taking, but he wasn't a happy horse at all. He apparently had continued to do his work though. It seems like a contradiction, but the very traits that make Icelandic's seem easy also make them difficult in many ways. On first blush, most people would have considered Sina difficult in her vocal objections to the first saddles I used, in hindsight, I'm glad she was so easy to read, that she had the confidence to speak up for herself. Because of that, she has a very healthy back at age 11. Besides, I'm glad she trusts me enough to know she doesn't have to put up and shut up. She knows she has a right to an opinion. I have NO idea how vocal or stoic your horse is, but I don't think it hurts to talk about the wide range of reactions to poorly fitting saddles that I've seen in this breed. That saddle DOES look too long for your horse to me, but I'm not there to feel around. Just remember that you don't want ANY weight born on his loins. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, and again, I can't be sure this saddle won't work for your horse. But, gosh, when you buy a $2000-4000 saddle and realize it isn't working, that's a sick feeling - been there, done that! And we have to be practical - most of us don't have huge trust funds to draw from. These saddles have limited appeal, so the chances of you taking a loss if you have to sell it are pretty real. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
I know that Robyn Hood has mentioned that is common - that a horse may initially feel better in a new saddle I have a western saddle that fits us both. *I* would prefer to ride English, hence the new saddle. Probably a mistake...I should follow the if it ain't broke don't fix it adage... Remember that Flex Panels don't have much - some NONE - adjustability in the width of the front gullet. The Free N Easy had about an inch of This system must be different. I could ride the dining room table in this thing. The panels and the tree, though connected, are independent of one another. The tree is for the rider support and the panels are for the horse. Check out the web page if you haven't yet - there are a lot of interesting pictures and also history of the flex panel system. -Kristen in MI
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
--- Kristen Mikula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This system must be different. I could ride the dining room table in this thing. I saw that in one video which really made me consider this saddle. The tree is for the rider support and the panels are for the horse. Yes, while the Sensation works well for a lot of Icelandics, there are still instances where the horse and rider need a tree for support. Lolligagging around the pasture a few times a week are one thing, but for longer rides, a horse really needs a tree to help distribute the weight of the rider. I know I will catch hell for this since this group is such a treeless loving group, but a lot of the treeless fanatics don't ride for that great length of time except for maybe a few times a year. Serious ride times sometimes require the support of a tree, especially if trotting and posting. Check out the web page if you haven't yet - there are a lot of interesting pictures and also history of the flex panel system. I learned a lot from this web site and found it quite interesting. I did a lot of researching before I decided on the Specialized. I joined the Flex Panel yahoo group, and researched their archives in addition to the archives of RideCamp (the endurance riding list). I found about a 50% long term success rate for the flex panel saddles, and that is the main reason I decided on the Specialized. I hope you are in that 50%!!! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
The panels and the tree, though connected, are independent of one another. The tree is for the rider support and the panels are for the horse. the panels have to be in a good place tho, for horse comfort. Like my flex saddle on my wide wide icey, it seemed to fit fine but the panels were up on top of him almost instead of lower down sorta toward the sides like they are supposed to be. I could really tell it perched tho and you should be able to also, also watch for a sorta hard to explain hesitance when you ride. A sorta walking on eggs thing they do if the panels flex and it bothers them. sometimes it just p___s me off that the most comfortable saddles are often bad for the horse! Like a Tucker, my gosh I loved riding in that thing! And it almsot ruined my jaspars back. Then my orthoflex stitchdown, something about it just makes me sit correctly, so balanced, I ride so well in it, and it just plain wont work on my icelandics. My sensation hybrid works on some but not others. and it is very comfortable. but some horses have to have spinal clearance. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
This system must be different. I could ride the dining room table in this thing. Maybe this one is wide enough then, and that would be good. Width can still be an issue with flex-panels - I got a little annoyed with the various manufacturer ads when we were first looking at them, because I didn't think they were forthcoming about the lack of flex in the width dimension. I've seen some REAL problems with some of the Orthoflexes being not wide enough - I think they come in various widths, but each widths appear to be fixed...or they were when we last looked at them. The FnE's don't have any flex in the width, but at least they can be adjusted width-wise within limits. It's just that once they are adjusted they don't have any give, and Skjoni's got too tight, even to the outermost limit. Someone - Renee Smith? - has an OrthoFlex I think that was specially made for an Icelandic to be extra wide and extra short, but I think it was a special order. Maybe if it was Renee, she'll speak up. (I know I saw one somewhere, and I think it might have been hers.) The panels and the tree, though connected, are independent of one another. The tree is for the rider support and the panels are for the horse. That sounds like the way Cary's FnE was made. However, the riders weight was distributed all the way to the back edge of panels, so, even if the panels are flexible, you still wouldn't want any weight on the horse's loins. I believe that's the purpose of the panels - to give a larger weight distribution area. The back edge of the FnE sat all the way to the very back of Skjoni's last rib, but it barely missed being on the unsupported part of his back, but it did overlap his shoulder by maybe an inch. We really couldn't bring it any further forward without causing other issues. In other words, it worked within his available saddle area, but there wasn't a bit of spare room to tinker with. Check out the web page if you haven't yet - there are a lot of interesting pictures and also history of the flex panel system. I checked it out when we first were looking, and I checked it out (and the Reactor Panels, and many other brands) when we were first looking and then again when the FnE showed the problems. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
sometimes it just p___s me off that the most comfortable saddles are often bad for the horse! Like a Tucker, my gosh I loved riding in that thing! And it almsot ruined my jaspars back. Then my orthoflex stitchdown, something about it just makes me sit correctly, so balanced, I ride so well in it, and it just plain wont work on my icelandics. My sensation hybrid works on some but not others. and it is very comfortable. but some horses have to have spinal clearance. Janice, your horses for which the Hybrid doesn't work - they are TWH, right? I think that's the reason that there are so many treeless fans on this list - particularly Sensation fans. I used treed saddles for 15 years with barely a problem, at least no big ones...but then I got Icelandic's. As Liz Graves said, and as Carol Brett said, and as my local saddle-fitter said, and I certainly agree, for many Icelandic's, treeless is going to be the only option. There's often just not enough length to their saddle backs for a tree to fit. Interestingly enough, Liz, Carol Brett, and my local saddler could have each sold me a treed saddle, and each could have profited from it, but none of them did. Carol is founder of Balance Saddles International, and my local saddler sold Wintecs and Stubbens (among others) when she did the last saddle fitting here, and Liz is Dave Genadek's significant other... but all were honest and told me that treeless saddles are a viable option for us, and for Sina, probably my ONLY option. I have to admire dealers/clinicians who put ethics above personal profit, and these are three people I commend for doing just that. It's not a matter of being a treeless fanatic - it's just being realistic about finding something that really works for our horses, and doesn't cause them pain. I commend anyone who does that, no matter what kind of saddle they find that works for their horse. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
So far I like it and Deacon seems to like it as well. He has been fairly loud about his complaints to saddles in the past (i.e. won't stand still for saddling or mounting) so I am definitely watching him for signs. Deacon is wide, but fairly long in the back for an Icelandic. Kristen, please be very careful that this saddle isn't too long for him. When we were looking for a saddle for Cary to use on Skjoni, we passed on the American Flex models because they are so long compared to other brands. I think the website says that the panels are 24 on them, and even if they are flexible, that's a lot of length for an Icelandic back. Cary used a flex-panel on Skjoni for a while. It was a Free N Easy. If I remember correctly its panels were more like 20, maybe 21 long. Whatever it was, there was a LOT of difference between the two brands. Skjoni isn't a little Icelandic either. He's a good honest 13.3 3/4H and his back isn't as short as some, but I can't imagine how even he could have used anything longer than that Free N Easy. I don't know if you remember, but Skjoni seemed fine in that FnE for about 6-8 months, then he became hard to catch, pacey...the same old tale-tell signs of saddle issues. As soon as we replaced the saddle, those issues went away. I sold the saddle on ebay, but I took one of the biggest losses I've ever taken on a saddle. It was an expensive lesson. Obviously, I can't tell as much from a picture as I could in person, but I'd be wary that the saddle is too long for him, judging from both the picture, and from our many past saddle purchase mistakes. Judy, do you still have those back length measurements from Dave Genadek that you posted a few days ago? Maybe that would help Kristen? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
--- Kristen Mikula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I finally ordered an Evolutionary (formerly American Flex) saddle. I was on the fence between the Specialized saddle and this one, but decided to try it anyway because I have a 30 day trial. I poured over their website for hours and hours before I made up my mind and settled on the Specialized. Do you have acces to a Port Lewis Impression Pad? Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
I dont know about that brand saddle but if you are set on getting a flex panel orthoflex makes new shorter more flexible panels that are 20-21 inches and they can grind off the rear of the saddle itself and put the leather back over it and that makes it where there is an allowable area for even more flex. I had that done for mine and I ride it on two of my horses and they seem fine with it. It did not work at all on my icelandic tho. It just perched way up in the air like one of those seats you ride a camel with cause he is so wide. and even being shorter and custom modified to be even shorter, I put it on my young icelandic to pony him in it and it was too long for him. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] I have a new saddle! - Evolutionary Saddle
looks a bit long to me but maybe it's the angle. Bia
