[IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He's also a great horse in most ways. I can't say that enough. EITILL IS A GREAT HORSE. But, he's NOT the only horse I've seen who's been clicker trained who has issues similar to what he has. As I said yesterday, even I didn't see his OBSESSION with the clicker until I put him in a new situation when I tried to teach him to sidepass, and that was many months after he came here. How could you tell he had an obsession with the clicker when you were attempting to teach him to sidepass? Up until then, all I saw was a little quirkiness. He was fine until I tried to teach him something new. You know, all horses learn differently at different paces, this is so odd because I have clicker trained my horses and they are still perfectly capable of learning with other methods not involving a clicker. I find that I have to be a better teacher when it comes to certain individuals, the mules are much more difficult, I have to get better (still), is it within the realm of possibility that this particular horse requires a better trainer? He was perfectly mannerly, standing around at the clinic last fall...UNTIL he got bored and started snatching people's hats, picking up chairs, biting a hunk out of my helmet when he handed it to me without me asking... I was hosting the clinic, but I couldn't let my horse get within reach of any of the participants after about 30-45 minutes. He stayed in his own space, quietly, until he got bored, then he went click-hunting. How long have you had this horse? You said this is ten years down the road. Horses are constantly learning what to do and not do, from us their handlers. I do not believe training is forever and is not modified by the person right in front of the horse. I don't think it's fair at all to blame current problems on something so remote. I was listening to an old horsemanship guy and he said When things go wrong with our horses, we blame the horse, we blame our mother-in laws, but really there is nobody to blame, but ourselves I don't even know why there has to be blame, we just need to adjust to the situtation and become a better horseperson. Blame is useless. I think as horsepeople we need to take an inventory of ourselves, not all of those around us, that will help us to get better. What happened after the first time he snatched a hat or picked up a chair? Just because Icelandics are small and normally well behaved, they are not dogs. When I was young I learned the basics of being around horses, one I remember is never stand behind a horse, right? you stay out of kicking range. I don't think we should treat these horses like dogs, ignoring the basic rules we have about all horses, and then go blaming the horse, and blaming long gone former owners because they can't be allowed to mingle with the guests. There is no way I would let my mules at this stage, or my filly, mingle with an arena full of people, so why would I let my Icelandics, even though they *probably* wouldn't do anything? What is wrong with tying a horse to a rail and having him wait there if you are not handling him at the moment? Whether you were handling him or not, I think it's quite a stretch to say that he went click-hunting. Dari has a tendency to be quite a character too, he used to grab my umbrella if I was carrying it in the rain and try to snatch it and would pull it down while the other regular horse would run in terror from it, nothing to do with clicker training. You had mentioned that one problem you had with clicker training was that Trausti backed up for hours? after being clicker trained to back up. After we taught Dari to turn on the forehand (definitely not with clicker training) he started to turn on the forehand every time we came to a halt, of course thinking he would please me. It was corrected in a fairly short period of time and I made it clear to him that there was a clear signal for turning on the forehand and that when we halt I am not asking for that, I also made sure I was not giving him mixed signals. Icelandics can be playful, they can be characters, they are very intelligent, they can have a sense of humor, they want to please us, and may try to hard sometimes. They can be all of these things, and that is why I love them. Maybe Eitill isn't the right horse for you, I would LOVE to have a horse like that. I seem to a few of them already. A lot of potential owners down the road won't like ANY playfulness, ANY invasions of space...What if your clicker baby ends up in one of those homes? That would be too bad, maybe not a good match. I think this whole thing is too bad, Parelli encourages play with horses, of course respectfully, and clicker training can do the same thing. The clicker is a simple little tool that marks a behavior, that is all it is, it doesn't create a behavior, it doesn't think
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
How long have you had this horse? You said this is ten years down the road. I've had him about 1.5 years and he's 13. But, enough has been said on this. Renee is hurt. I've given plenty of details on this - the answers to all your questions are in the archives. If you want to go back and read what I've said, fine, but I'm tired of the subject. I meant everything I've said about clicker training, but enough is enough. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date: 3/14/2007 3:38 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
You had mentioned that one problem you had with clicker training was that Trausti backed up for hours? after being clicker trained to back up. After we taught Dari to turn on the forehand (definitely not with clicker training) he started to turn on the forehand every time we came to a halt, of course thinking he would please me. I've had the same experience with teaching a side pass, once they get it... for a couple of minutes they think that every time I put my leg on them they should side pass. I don't go on side passing/backing, or whatever, for hours because I have a mind set that the horse is ruined by some distant training method I'm doing it right, and by god he'll do it my way. I just briefly redirect the horses energy and go back to sidepass, multiple times, eventually the horse realizes that every time I put my leg on doesn't suddenly mean side pass. It doesn't take letting/making them sidepass for hours because they think that's what you want if you want to help them understand the difference. IMO this is a pretty common confusion previously C/T or not. I think you betray your horses' trust by allowing/making them go on for hours. If what you're doing doesn't get the results you're looking for you don't keep at it for hours, isn't that a pretty basic covenant of considering the horse in training? I'm sorry that Trausti and Eitill had to endure hours of backing/sidepassing due to miscommunication and a rider too stubborn to accept what they were using wasn't working and try something else, return to successful point, and go forward with a new plan. Basic horsemanship stuff. IMO, making a horse back for hours (if a horse backed for hours to his mind you WERE asking for a back) due to miscommunication, and a mind set that I'm asking correctly and by god this horse will comply with my request, borders on abuse, maybe that is too light, it is abuse. Cheryl ToltallyICE at Sand Creek Icelandic Horse Farm Icelandic Horses and Icelandic Sheepdogs email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.toltallyice.com Idaho
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
If what you're doing doesn't get the results you're looking for you don't keep at it for hours, isn't that a pretty basic covenant of considering the horse in training? I never said it was consecutive hours. Hours total. I doubt many people break training up into smaller chunks than I do. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date: 3/14/2007 3:38 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
I'm sorry that Trausti and Eitill had to endure hours of backing/sidepassing due to miscommunication and a rider too stubborn to accept what they were using wasn't working and try something else, return to successful point, and go forward with a new plan. Basic horsemanship stuff. Cheryl, how is Raudstjarni From ToltallyIce doing? Did you train him yourself? Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date: 3/14/2007 3:38 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
IMO, making a horse back for hours (if a horse backed for hours to his mind you WERE asking for a back) due to miscommunication, and a mind set that I'm asking correctly and by god this horse will comply with my request, borders on abuse, maybe that is too light, it is abuse. Oh Cheryl. Same old, same old... You didn't read what I said. I ignored. He backed. I asked him to go forward. He backed. I ignored. Yep, maybe he WAS abusing me, and passive old me just took it. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date: 3/14/2007 3:38 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
Cheryl, how is Raudstjarni From ToltallyIce doing? Did you train him yourself? You're a hoot Karen! Cheryl ToltallyICE at Sand Creek Icelandic Horse Farm Icelandic Horses and Icelandic Sheepdogs email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.toltallyice.com Idaho
[IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO, making a horse back for hours (if a horse backed for hours You didn't read what I said. I ignored. He backed. I asked him to go forward. He backed. I ignored. Yep, maybe he WAS abusing me, and passive old me just took it. Hi Karen, One of the principles of good horsemanship is that if what you're doing isn't working, then you so something different. Since you're so good at breaking things down, I'd love to hear how you broke this process down into steps. Thanks, Mary
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
Well put Kim. Cherie
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training -- Eitill IS a great horse...but...
How DO we train, all of us? How do you start a colt? Maybe we could briefly outline our early steps with a youngster. My youngest ever to arrive at my place was nasi, and I just let him be a baby. He was four months old. But I took him out and had him stand for grooming, took him for walks like a dog. had his feet done regulalrly. kissed him and smooched him. Smacked him good for biting, would stand firm and act menacing when he would gallop from the other end of the pasture right for me like he wanted to see if he could scare me. made him stand at the cross ties for a couple of hours while I tried to cut his winter coat with scissors until I would wear out three pairs of scissors and my hands would be a mass of open oozing blisters. Wet him down and made sure the electric fence was on so that the next time he decided to run through the electric fence into the next paddock where there was a giant domineering walking horse gelding and his three mare harem waiting to kill him he would get zapped good. never worked. he got zapped at least twenty times a day and still broke thru wire fences. Like he had immunity from them, like electric wire meant nothing to him. I took him for rides in the trailer and would leave him parked outside walmart so he could get used to traffic sounds and car doors slamming while i shopped. took him to subway and starbucks. Walked him over flapping sheets of tin and plywood. Waded into the creek with him. walked him along busy roads, up to bulldozers running and fires burning. Up and down sand piles, into black sucky mudpits. Then year two. more of the same, but ponied him once. let him wear a saddle around in the yard. Now he is almost three and bwaaaha haa his torment shall begin in earnest! I am gonna pony him on a trail ride with Teev soon! Janice yipie tie yie yo
