Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
I guess I'd like to ask Nancy what she sees in these videos. Well - there's a question I have been pondering myself. And my answer really doesn't have much to do with the photos. Tosca seems to have about the range of gaits that Hunter has, which works really well for what I do. We purchased two mares. Tosca, who tends to be a bit lazy, was purchased for Stephanie to use as a therapy horse. She would mainly be led at the walk with a shifting load on her back. Tosca took one look at Stepanie and recognized her job - on the ground. Yrsa was an impulse purchase. I took one look at her sweet little face, wanted Tosca to travel with a friend, just wanted her to bring her home. She seems more energetic, gaits at liberty and melts my heart. I don't care what she is good (or not good at). What concerns me is that Tosca can be a little grumpy - bucked when we put Stephanie up on her. She uses her ears very expressively. She really sat down on the cross ties when a cat jumped out in front of her and then threw herself sideways into a bucket which rolled over and clattered around. Her reaction was not at all out of line, but it is out of line for Stephanie.. So ... what I'm thinking is that we might switch or at least let both mares try out the therapy horse role. Tosca is 13.3 and very sturdy. She could easily carry me. The laziness might go away with fitness or a saddle that fits her better. Yrsa is smaller, sweeter, calmer, but doesn't have a bond with Stephanie. I'm open to suggestions. What I was hoping for was a quiet lead line horse for a disabled rider and a nice trail horse for a crazed endurance rider. That's a joke, but I know it's the perception some have of endurance. I was actually thinking slow limited distance, that's 25 miles over a six hour period. I also like a horse that is well enough trained to do some arena work when the trails are too wet to use. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
i wish you had a horse like my jas... he will pony ride ridiculous unbalanced children all day very happily. if one slipped way to the side he would simply stop. I let a downs syndrome girl ride him one day in the arena, she kept laughing and slapping his withers and would suddenly with no warning throw herself forward and clasp her arms tight around his neck and just laugh and choke him and I would just look at him with total wonder cause he had such a soft glow in his eyes. He had known from when he was being tacked up, when she was brushing him and suddenly stopped and started kissing him all over his belly, he whirled around and looked at her like what the... and suddenly relaxed, licked and chewed, like oh, she's a baby of some kind and from then on he tolerated all her strange sudden moves. My fox would be good at this too. My Tivar, altho he likes children and likes them to pet him, does not like strangers on his back at all. Nasi or stonewall, forget it, they are babies themselves. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
What concerns me is that Tosca can be a little grumpy - bucked when we put Stephanie up on her. Hi Nancy... I haven't been following all the posts lately (having been run over by Christmas, extra ER shifts and building a new house - egads) but How long have these two mares been under saddle? What was their previous experience/jobs? What I have been doing with my Drifa is Parelli - and our group does 'play days' - we play all the games, but over, under, through all kinds of obstacles. We try and make the obstacles as easy to as difficult/scary as we can so that the horse can start out at very easy and gradually, as they gain confidence and skills, they are challenged more. So - at first they follow (rider on the ground), at a comfortable distance, someone pulling a bag of rattling cans, gradually learning to get closer and closer. A more advanced horse is ridden up to the bag of moving, rattling cans, bareback and bridleless; and at some point the horses start to pull the bag behind them. We have a pole with wide strips of plastic hanging down. At first we just play the games close to it - maybe some circling, yoyo (backing towards and away from it), sideways up to it; then advance and retreat through it, then the games through it, then with a rider There are lots of websites (and Judy has links to some) that show different obstacles to make and play with, so you don't have to come up with these on your own. It's amazing what can be done with PVC pipe and glue ;-) The key is to gradually play with new experiences without ever overwhelming the horse, or losing it's trust and confidence and to support the horse through all these new experiences so he learns to trust his human. And teaching the horse to be soft and 'follow a feel' - so, for instance, when the horse spooks and feels the halter tightening, he will have learned to 'give' to that feel, not fight it. The learning process can be helped along with a clicker (although I do not use one because my left arm/hand is funky). There is a Clicker expo in LA in January or February (google Karen Pryor clicker training). For the horse who will be the disabled rider's mount ... practice doing all of the things that a disabled rider would do - but with a physicaly more able person, and in very, very tiny increments - so that when the horse does the right thing (hold still when a human stumbles up against her, for instance) the horse gets a reward (or several - a treat, a release, a scratch) For this you would start with a person stumbling at a safe distance, reward the horse for holding still, and gradually work the person up to the horse as the horse figured out the game and the appropriate response. And you would do this for as many wierd things as you could come up with. After awhile, the horses figure out the deal and start generalizing and things go a lot faster. At first it is usually a lot of repetition. Maybe you have done all this? But if Tosca was grumpy when Steph was on her - bucking - are you sure that Tosca wasn't just unused to the feel of an uncoordinated rider? and frightened/nervous about it? She may have been getting a lot of conflicting signals all at once and was overwhelmed and confused. Being spooked hard by a running cat is a rookie mistake and she can learn a new response. anyhow - I hope this makes sense. Penny
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
Maybe you have done all this? But if Tosca was grumpy when Steph was on her - bucking - are you sure that Tosca wasn't just unused to the feel of an uncoordinated rider? and frightened/nervous about it? She may have been getting a lot of conflicting signals all at once and was overwhelmed and confused.
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
Maybe you have done all this? But if Tosca was grumpy when Steph was on her - bucking - are you sure that Tosca wasn't just unused to the feel of an uncoordinated rider? and frightened/nervous about it? She may have been getting a lot of conflicting signals all at once and was overwhelmed and confused. Thanks Penny. Very good advice indeed. We have not done all of that, but have done some of the things you suggested and have plans for implementing some of the others. The bucking came about because I put Stephanie on bareback with a vaulting surcingle. Her hip flexors are so tight that she can't spread her legs around the barrel of a horse so she slid way back over Tosca's loin. We popped Stephanie off - she had a side-walker at each knee and put each of the side-walkers up instead. Tosca bucked each time one of them slid back beyond her comfort level, but with the better riders on her, I could correct her and continue on. We will need to find an appropriate saddle for Steph. Tosca will be five in May and had had about 18 rides over about nine months, so she's very green. Yrsa is not started. She will be four next May. She has been led all over and ground driven and I have sat on her. She's been bathed. hauled, clipped, saddled and blanketed. All non-events. I'll start her just like I started Tosca when she turns four. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
Nancy, it sounds like Tosca needs some approach and retreat, have the rider move back, then forward before she reacts, watching for relaxation before moving the rider back further... Funny story, Dan and I went looking for a mule for Tatum to ride, about 9 years ago... it was winter, we went up North, took the trailer with... I had found Molly the mule on the internet... anyway...we go there and Molly was a little smaller then I wanted, but very sturdy.. Dan rode her around bareback, she was perfect... but, when he went to slide off her rear, she flipped around so fast he landed in a heap, right below where he was sitting.. it was really FUNNY for all of us, but him... We bought her anyway... well... since I knew that was a problem, I told the kids they needed to wait before they rode double until she got to know us better... Tatum asked why, I told her...well, she spent so much time on her back... playing with that area, first with her hands, then with her toes, then with her bottom, that it did not take long before Molly was carrying 3 kids around all the time... so, don't give up hope, Respectful, approach and retreat can really help her get over feeling like a Mountain Lion has grabbed her by the Loins... Debbie in SE MN -- The Soul of a Horse ~ Together we can send this book to the top of the Best Sellers list... thesoulofahorse.com/Pre-Order-Reviews.htm
RE: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
i wish you had a horse like my jas... he will pony ride ridiculous unbalanced children all day very happily. I think Jaspar is a lot like my Big Mac was - a very gentle, old-soul kind of horse. But, even Jaspar and Mac weren't born with a world of experience - while their good natures and patience might have been born in them, they still had to gain some life experience along the way to become what they are/were. Nancy, is this a decision you have to make now? Or is this something you can proceed with as you're going, and make decisions as the girls present their answers to you? I obviously haven't seen either Tosca or Yrsa, but they both sound lovely - just young. I tend to agree with Penny's assessments of Tosca's reactions to date - how did she say it - rookie mistakes? If she's only on her 18th ride now, it seems to me that she's doing great - whether she's suitable for Stephanie is another issue that I obviously can't discuss without seeing them together... I hear people debate if a particular horse (or even a particular breed) is suitable for being a kid's horse, and that often strikes me as the wrong question. While some horses (Mac, Jaspar, and several Icelandic's I've known) seem born to be gentle with special-needs beings, those horses still need several things to be really suitable for tiny kids or for handicapped adults or children. The first thing is obviously having been born with the right temperament for the job, but they also need 2) maturity, 3) training, and 4) experience. Number 2 will come - youth is, unfortunately, curable, as I'm sure most of us have realized. I think you can take care of numbers 3 and 4. So, I'd think what is left is the first two - do you think they (either or both) have the right in-born temperament, and will they also have the maturity in time to be useful for Stephanie's teen years? I have no idea - from what you've said, I certainly wouldn't give up on either of them, but I'm sure you can see it more clearly than we can. How does Stephanie feel about waiting? Is she losing patience? Can she get involved with the groundwork of either horse now, while waiting for their riding skills to come along? I guess I don't see how we can provide any answers for you, but I'm sure the list is willing to help you formulate some questions you need to address. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1198 - Release Date: 12/26/2007 5:26 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
Nancy, is this a decision you have to make now? No, it is not and the plan is to just continue with the training of both mares, enjoying the process and the ponies and seeing where we end up. The actual fact is that we have the extremely phlegmatic Twist who is as close to bomb proof as a horse will ever get and is looking for a job. And Stephanie is so consumed with her school work and crafting that I suspect she likes the fact of owning Tosca and riding some horse from time to time, but she is never begging Please, please, may I go out and ride? She is a very smart girl who hass learned to accept how physically challenging life is for her and how long it takes her to accomplish tasks that you and I do without thinking. This group is a world of help and support to us and I am very grateful for the depth of experience and kind advice. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
No, it is not and the plan is to just continue with the training of both mares, enjoying the process and the ponies and seeing where we end up. The actual fact is that we have the extremely phlegmatic Twist who is as close to bomb proof as a horse will ever get and is looking for a job. You know, Nancy, sometimes when I don't what to do about one of my horses...well, if I can't find the right answer, usually if I wait, the answer will find me. Case in point would be Tivar. I'm not really sure why I wanted to take him on as a project when he was giving Ann problems two years ago. Then, bam, just weeks after he came here to live, Janice found out that Svertla and Stali were starving in FL, and she and I went in together (her doing the hard part) to get them out of that awful home...then Stali died so tragically, and Tivar responded SO well to the ulcer treatment, and to our restarting him under saddle in a no-pressure environment. That wasn't the answer I expected, but it the right answer for Tivar I think. He's obviously happy as a clam with Janice, sharing her adventures, blossoming at her farm. The timing on that situation was just too odd - I think it was supposed to be. Years ago, I bought my beloved Sundance to be a dependable horse that Emily's little friends could ride - and then I fell in love with him, and he became my personal buddy, my first true equine soul-mate. Things don't always go as we expect - sometimes they go better than we expect. I have all faith that your answers will find you. Bless you for not rushing into a decision, but taking things as they come. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1198 - Release Date: 12/26/2007 5:26 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
yes, lots to consider. I dont even think Jaspar would be a good little kids horse. he would be a great lead line pony ride horse, but any time I have let someone ride him who was real inexperienced and took a real passenger non-riding role, he just immediately went oh, I'm free and walked over and started grazing and when they would pull and kick and scold he'd plod a few steps and start eating again. He can spot a pushover a mile away :) He can also spot a horse expert a mile away I have a friend who is real real authoritative with horses, no non sense, wont put up with anything, she is the master, her horse is her minion and slave, that type. She wanted to ride jaspar one time so I said yes. She got on him and he pretended he didnt know what it meant when she clucked for him to go. I dont know how he pegged her for an a-hole even before she picked up the reins but man, he amazed me in his sudden balking behavior. When she got strict and lashed the reins on his shoulder and kicked and said come on, lets go, he immediately started walking backwards, like he was pretending he thought that was what she wanted all the time, backed into some dense bushes and just kept backing until her whole back and shoulders were just crammed in the bushes. I was just amazed. I looked at him and said Jas! and he just stared ahead chewing his cud like i think this is the kind of horse she deserves. Janice Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Tosca - short question/long answer
yes, lots to consider. I dont even think Jaspar would be a good little kids horse. he would be a great lead line pony ride horse, but any time I have let someone ride him who was real inexperienced and took a real passenger non-riding role, he just immediately went oh, I'm free and walked over and started grazing and when they would pull and kick and scold he'd plod a few steps and start eating again. He can spot a pushover a mile away :) Here's the other side of that story, one about our Mac, who reminded me of your Jaspar. We paid to lease Mac for a month before we bought him, and that was a very cold December. Still I was determined to ride him every opportunity I could before I wrote the check. Every night we'd go down to the barn to see him, and it would be in the teens - very cold for NC in December. The guy who owned him would be at the barn taking care of his other horses. The boarding barn was an old chicken house, at least 200 feet long, and we'd ride up and down the barn aisle. At one end of the barn, there was a stack of hay. About every second trip down, Mac, knowing he had total novices aboard, would refuse to make the turn, and would stroll out into the hay stack and have a snack. Finally, the owner looked up and said, would you like some advice. Yes, sure, please, how do we stop this? Cary was aboard at the moment, and he told him to get down, and he motioned for Emily (eight at the time) to come over. He looked at her and said, I want you to ride Mac up and down the barn aisle, and don't you let him go to the hay stack. Ok? She just nodded, climbed up on big old Mac...and he never, ever - not once - went to the haystack with her. The owner had seen her riding in her lessons, and I guess he knew she was a positive thinker - a totally confident rider. That was just mortifying to Cary and me, to be out-ridden by our eight-year old kid. Moral of the story - you must define kid before you decide if any given horse is a suitable kid's horse. At eight, Emily could outride a lot of adults, including yours truly. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1198 - Release Date: 12/26/2007 5:26 PM
