Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Thanks Judy. I'm putting something together, still in progress. Will you share the article / report with us when it's ready? Thanks! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:46:41 -0700, you wrote: Let's see and what would that sport be? what would it be called? I hate to think. I must add, in my personal opinion, equestrian sport has no place at the Olympics at all, as the riders are relying on another being for their sport, rather than their own athletic prowess. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
I must add, in my personal opinion, equestrian sport has no place at the Olympics at all, as the riders are relying on another being for their sport, rather than their own athletic prowess. I've thought about that too. I think I disagree (surprised?) a little bit about the riders depending on the prowess of another being, since most of these riders work for years with an individual horse before getting to that level of competition. It's not just the horse's prowess, nor is it just the rider's prowess. They are a team. Regardless though, you're right to some extent anyway. Olympic ratings aren't JUST based on the human-athlete's performances. I have seriously come to question the justification for ANY international competition. Maybe it's not such a big deal in Europe, where the countries are physically attached (well, except the UK) and geographically small. But to move horses from continent to continent? That's horribly stressful, horribly expensive...and is it really worth the time and stress, and the risk of exposure to regional diseases, to the horses, as well as the expense? I really don't think it is. I think most people seriously underestimate how stressful it is to move a horse 500-1000 miles, or even 50 miles in some contexts. To get enough Icelandic horses to pick breeding stock from, I had to move a good many horses 500-3500 miles. There simply weren't any closer. I watched them like hawks after the hauling, and most did ok, but ALL showed some signs of being really tired, at least a little worried, and somewhat stressed. Some were notably tired and stressed. I gave them all time off after the move, to relax in a pasture with no demands. They didn't have to go through a formal, government-defined quarantine, or jet lag, and they weren't expected to be at top performance within days or weeks, while carrying riders who are no doubt feeling the stress of competition. I'm sure that horses that do this regularly become SOMEWHAT used to it, but do they ever totally get used to it? I doubt it, and the statistics for ulcers in performance horses would tend to back my feelings up. Seriously, I worry as much about the emotional/mental stress these horses go through, as I do the physical stress. I just don't think it's worth it. Local/regional competition is plenty stressful on horses and riders, so I just don't think it's worth it to, for instance, move a horse from North America (New Zealand, Australia, Japan...) to Europe for international competition. To top it off, I think I read that cost to transport each US horse to the Netherlands for the World Championships was something like $20,000-25,000, per horse! Just for transport, for one competition. Not only is international competition horribly stressful to the horses, but it's certainly an elitist endeavor that isn't open to everyone...It's a lot of stress, risk, and expense just to satisfy the egos of a very small number of humans. So...why exactly do we need the FEIF? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
On 9/17/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's see and what would that sport be? what would it be called? Shall I defer to Janice to come up with a name? Janice needs to help us out here. Well, with a breed with such small numbers, doing nothing that requires skill or finesse - just a lot of speed and lot of tack? and with sirens on the sideline, lining the rail, singing that Bette Midler song, did I ever tell you you are my herooe, you are the wind inside my tights. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Thanks for the articles, Judy. Interesting that it's just about impossible to find any articles on the use of a shanked, broken, Tom Thumb type bit (like the Icelandic bit) in combination with a flash noseband. Probably because no authors can imagine anyone stupid enough to do it! Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Interesting that it's just about impossible to find any articles on the use of a shanked, broken, Tom Thumb type bit (like the Icelandic bit) in combination with a flash noseband. Probably because no authors can imagine anyone stupid enough to do it! I really think that's it, Mic. I've never seen it before. I haven't exactly been thrilled with the direction competitive dressage has gone over the last years, but they don't allow any shanked bit with a dropped noseband, nor do they allow shanks as long as the ones on Icelandic bits. And they don't allow any broken-mouthed curb bits. I think the Icelandic bit with a dropped noseband would be a triple no-no in dressage. Most of the time I've seen western folks use the Tom Thumb snaffle-curb type bits, they use them without any nosebands. And...don't I remember that broken-mouthed curbs aren't allowed in many western show classes at all - maybe not in any? Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
The jawbands of the English and flash nosebands should rest high up on the solid nasal bone where the horse is less sensitive to pressure. A wide jawband can exert little pain on this hard inflexible skull bone and does not impede breathing, since it runs above the nostril area. That brings up something else I've noticed, Judy, that I don't think anyone has mentioned...has anyone else noticed that the dropped nosebands seen at the Icelandic shows have gotten narrower too? A narrower noseband will have more bite to it and that's just salt in the wound. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Yes, as far as I can remember broken mouth bits with shanks with ot without a curb are not allowed in any traditional competitive situation. We always made harsh mental judgements on the rare occassion we actually saw soemone using one. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Yes, as far as I can remember broken mouth bits with shanks with ot without a curb are not allowed in any traditional competitive situation. Mic, I think that's your approach...you'll have to look for places that the Icelandic-approved-sins are prohibited in other disciplines. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:25:31 -0400, you wrote: Mic, I think that's your approach...you'll have to look for places that the Icelandic-approved-sins are prohibited in other disciplines. I rather think so too, particularly as FEIF wishes to be a member of FEI, with Icelandic horse sport eventually being an Olympic discipline. Trouble is, most other disciplines don't even bother to ban the use of bits similar to the Icelandic bit in conjunction with a flash noseband - I'm sure they don't believe anyone would use such a thing. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Interesting that it's just about impossible to find any articles on the use of a shanked, broken, Tom Thumb type bit (like the Icelandic bit) in combination with a flash noseband. Probably because no authors can imagine anyone stupid enough to do it! Here's some interesting information from Louis Taylor's book, entitled Bits: ...many of the bits of ancient Assyria, Egypt... were designed to pinch the lower jaw. The mouthpiece was jointed. The sidepieces were extremely long and held at right angles to the mouth by triple cheekpieces. When the reins were pulled, the lower arms of the sidepieces pinched the lower jaw. Some such bits survived into the Roman Era. The Egyptians and other earlier peoples used dropped nosebands and studded nosebands in conjunction with the jaw-pinching bits. The Greeks and Romans frequently used the single cheek strap divided just above the bit; and often no noseband at all. Sounds like an ancient and barbaric practice. And: Early horsemen, however, did not learn the finesse of using the noseband most effectively, if we can judge from such meager sources as the Tassili frescoes, and Egyptian art of earlier discovery. They were prone to carry the band down on the nose so far that it cut off the wind, and they frequently lined it with studs or spikes. From another chapter called Severe Bitting for the Polo Pony: A very low noseband is apt to cut off wind, as the Greeks probably decided when they abandoned the dropped noseband of their predecessors any noseband below the bit is bound, in my estimation, to have some effect on breathing. As the old jaquima users knew, the place for anything across the horse's nose is above the soft part of the cartilage. I suppose that the polo player trying to put a stop on a race horse is perfectly willing to sacrifice a little bit of the horse's breath for the sake of an advantage on the bit. He references things like this as horse controllers. Using *more* (i.e. long-shanked, broken-mouthed bit, with a noseband), is an excuse for not using good horsemanship. It is only a control of the horse, and does not communicate *to* the horse, nor, most importantly, does it allow for any communication *from* the horse! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Some of them seemed to have leather thongs for a bit. I read as far as leather thongs and thought this was going to still be about Nancy's farrier... Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 9/16/2007 6:32 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
did you see on discovery channel that special on the terra cotta chinese soldiers they found in a crypt? hundreds of them, many of them mounted on horses. the horses had on different sorts of tack. Some of them seemed to have leather thongs for a bit. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Don't give him any ideas. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
On 9/17/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some of them seemed to have leather thongs for a bit. I read as far as leather thongs and thought this was going to still be about Nancy's farrier... if my farrier ever showed up in a leather thong my horses would stampede. forgive me for this slightly bad language story. but I got a real hoot out of it when my farrier came. he lives near me and in our area you have to really keep on top of it or you'll get infested and overgrown with prickly pears. (wild cactus so bad if a horse gets one in his leg you need a knife to get it out, when i was a kid a spine went all the way through the sole of my shoe and halfway through my whole foot). Anyway, I asked if he still had prickly pear real bad at his place and he said oh yeah, just awful bad! me and the wife started nicknaming em the little bastards and just as he said this I swear to god stonewall just threw his head up high and jerked his foot away. and I blurted he thought you were calling his name since we call him that so much hahahaha. that was a good one. we laughed and laughed about it, sorry. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
I rather think so too, particularly as FEIF wishes to be a member of FEI, with Icelandic horse sport eventually being an Olympic discipline. Let's see and what would that sport be? what would it be called? Shall I defer to Janice to come up with a name? The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good WOMEN to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke 1729-1797 Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
What can we do to help? Do you need more information about the mechanics? Have you got a concise article on the mechanics of the curb bit when used in conjunction with a drop or flash noseband? That would be really handy. Mic, What do you have so far? Were you able to get anything from the links that were sent in? Here's a little more, on nosebands: http://iceryder.net/noseband.html Gerhard Kapitzke on Nosebands: http://iceryder.net/nosebands.html And I also have more from him, that you might want to use, if you need it. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Thanks Judy. I'm putting something together, still in progress. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
From Kapitzke: The Blow Area of the Nostrils: When a horse is breathing heavily, the blow area of the nostrils is easily observed. When a horse is breathing quietly, you can feel it with your fingers. Dropped nosebands are usually not suitable for ponies and horses with small mouths (Arabians, for example) because the jawband necessarily rests too low for them and during periods of heavy breathing, will put too much pressure on the blow area of their nostrils. Noseband Position: The low position of the dropped noseband puts pressure on the sensitive flexible end of the nasal bone and the blow area of the nostrils that extends with heavy breathing. The jawbands of the English and flash nosebands should rest high up on the solid nasal bone where the horse is less sensitive to pressure. A wide jawband can exert little pain on this hard inflexible skull bone and does not impede breathing, since it runs above the nostril area. Nostril and breathing areas can vary in size from horse to horse and are not related to the size of the horse's mouth. Consequently, it is important to feel with your fingers where the soft nostril area runs into the bone and where you can place the noseband so it does not cause excessive pain or restrict breathing. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Info on the Tom Thumb: The Trouble with Tom Thumb by Mark Rashid As a trainer and clinician I am always being asked a variety of horse-related questions. I think the single most common one asked, however, is what kind of bit should I use on my horse? In my situation, if I need to do any training on the horse whatsoever, I use a simple full-cheek snaffle bit. If the horse is well-trained and responsive, he stops, backs, and neck reins all on a light cue, then I use a curb or grazing bit. These are the only types of bits that I use on a regular basis, and are the only ones that I feel comfortable recommending. There is one bit that I never recommend, however, and in fact do my best to try to talk people out of using, particularly if they are experiencing problems with their horses - problems such as unresponsiveness while stopping, backing, or turning, or even more severe problems like head tossing, shaking their heads, or rearing. The bit that I am talking about, and which is often the source of such problems, is the Tom Thumb snaffle. TRANSITION BIT The Tom Thumb snaffle was originally designed as a transition bit that was to be used in Western training. When a green horse was far enough along that perhaps a training snaffle was no longer necessary, but not far enough along to be moved into a curb bit, the Tom Thumb would be used. This would be great, if in fact, it made the transition simple and easy. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The truth of the matter is that, due to its design, it could possibly be considered one of the worst bits that somebody could use at a highly critical time in a young horse's training. The Tom Thumb is commonly termed a snaffle bit because its mouthpiece is broken, or hinged, which is a trademark common to the true snaffle bits. That is where the similarities end. On a true snaffle bit, the reins are attached to a relatively small, swiveling ring which could be considered a working part of the mouthpiece itself. When the rein is pulled as you would do when asking the horse to turn, the ring that the rein is attached to moves completely away from the horse's mouth. The mouthpiece itself slides in the same direction, which causes the ring on the opposite side of the horse's mouth to apply pressure on that side. Because the horse is taught to go away from pressure, it then makes sense that if you are pulling to the left, and the pressure from the bit is on the right side of his mouth, he will naturally turn his head to the left. This is the simple principle that is commonly referred to as direct reining, or plow reining. It is also a principle that is almost impossible to perform properly with the Tom Thumb, due to its design. SHANKS PROHIBIT DIRECT REINING Unlike a true snaffle bit, the Tom Thumb has shanks similar to the ones found on a solid curb bit. It is to the bottom of these shanks that the reins are attached. The headstall is attached to the top of the shank, as is some type of curb strap which fits around the bottom of the horse's jaw, in the chin area. These shanks swivel and are attached to the bit's mouthpiece. It is that one flaw in the bit's design that renders it almost totally useless when it comes to any kind of training which involves direct reining. Again, using direct reining in a snaffle bit, the horse is taught to move away from pressure. To turn to the right, the pressure is on the left side of the horse's mouth. To turn to the left, the pressure is on the right. There should be no other pressure being applied by the bit that could cause the horse to become confused. Unfortunately, confusion is precisely what happens to a horse when the Tom Thumb is used. Because of its shanks, any attempt at direct reining results in pressure on several different areas around the horse's mouth. For instance, if you are asking the horse to turn to the left, you will be pulling on the left rein, with the idea that the pressure from the bit will be on the right side of the horse's mouth, thereby turning the horse left. However, because the rein is attached to the bottom of a swiveling shank, pulling on the rein results in the shank turning and tipping into the left side of the horse's face. When the shank tips, it also shifts the mouthpiece, which, in turn, puts pressure on the right side of the horse's mouth by pulling the right side of the bit into it. You now have pressure on both sides of the horse's mouth, as well as a shifting of the mouthpiece inside the mouth. If this wasn't bad enough, tipping the shank also results in the tightening up of the curb strap that is under the horse's chin. Suddenly, the simple act of asking the horse to turn to the left is no longer a simple act. The bit is applying so much pressure in so many places, that the horse has no clue as to what you were asking for in the first place. He then tries to tell you that he doesn't understand what you want
