RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
My Gaited Morgan can do that too, Tail flagging, ( I thought this horse was gingered, but in all fairness, I could be wrong, It could be natural, it was my first thought when I saw it ) My thought, too, but after looking at the video many times, it finally hit me that it looked more natural in the driving phase. A good number of horses flag their tails when they are happy or excited, particularly stallions. I wouldn't be surprised if someone did something to this horse. But, to keep it in perspective, our little Tifa, born here just last year, is a tail flagger, and she's just a baby. Eitill too, and it's just his thing. And Arabs do it more than not - Thunder certainly does it. So, I have three horses here that are regular tail-flaggers, even at liberty. I agree, it can be a bad sign, but it's only a clue to watch for, not conclusive proof. Sometimes it just means "I'm happy" or "I'm excited". I noticed that many of the babies in the videos on that website were tail flaggers too. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 8/25/07, Robyn Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Go to a SHOW barn sometime and look around, > > IF you can get into a show barn. Many of the worse ones won't let > outside folks in, b/c they don't want people to see the abuse and > soring that takes place. > > Robyn S Yes, that is true... I got in cause I was an Ex Arab show person, apparently they thought I was ok with those practices, I was SO MAD... -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
> Go to a SHOW barn sometime and look around, IF you can get into a show barn. Many of the worse ones won't let outside folks in, b/c they don't want people to see the abuse and soring that takes place. Robyn S
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Also, those Bell boots are to protect his front feet, cause he reaches so far under himself with the hind legs, he can hit his front Heel bulbs with a hind hoof, and CUT them up... Unless they are weighted they are not changing his gait... No, that's not really true. Just the very nature of something on the "ankles" gives the horse an urge to step out of foreign entrapment, or above it. I was told that by the people at the barn when I bought Mac and starting the process of bringing his feet down. A few of them warned me that I was crazy, because it had taken so long to get his feet grown out and adjusted just so, so that his gait was manipulated just as they wanted. What they plainly told me was that if I didn't have the stomach to leave his feet long with the stacks, that I could always use plain bell boots. They told me they wouldn't do the job "as well" but that they could help. It's not just the weight that affects gait. In fact, sometimes I don't really think the weight has as much impact as changing the angles, or adding something foreign around the pasterns. Did you know that the stacks themselves have very little weight to them? I picked them up when they took Mac's off, and was surprised that they are relatively light. They easily could have added heavier shoes than he was wearing, but different trainers have different formulas for manipulating. We only boarded him at that barn for about six weeks, until our fence was complete and we could bring Mac and Thunder home. I learned more than I wanted to in that time though. The long toes will cause him to breakover later... Long toes are very common in TWH. But, most of the Saddlebreds I've seen don't really have especially long toes. Instead, you see the entire hoof growing long. I'm sure different trainers have different variations or tricks, but longer toes tend to be the recommendation for making a pacey horse "square up." You can even find that in print many places as a recommendation for pacey Icelandic's. Since trot has always been an acceptable gait in Saddlebreds, I don't think you see many pacey Saddlebreds, whereas pacey horses have been rampant in TWH and Icelandic's. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Also, those Bell boots are to protect his front feet, cause he reaches so far under himself with the hind legs, he can hit his front Heel bulbs with a hind hoof, and CUT them up... Unless they are weighted they are not changing his gait... The long toes will cause him to breakover later... also when in frame he will pick them up higher because of the longer toes, Look at his Frame and see how when free he is more level, but when ridden, he is Higher in the front end, that is because he is Collected, being driven into the bit, and Lifted with the hands held high... This man is a Terrible rider... the owner, he maybe rides for pictures and shows, the horse is ridden and conditioned by a trainer... -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 8/25/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >From: "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >His tail. I suspect it was broken and put in a 'tail set' to keep it > >upright. > > OMG!!! People do that?!!! > > V Yes, they do... Saddlebreds and Morgans are for show, Arabs are not, but many people Ginger them, It is against the rules... Some show people do things that are simply appalling, to win... Competitions can be good, but so many times people cheat, or cross the line, to win, especially when MONEY is involved... Go to a SHOW barn sometime and look around, or better yet, offer to help get ready for pictures or a show and you will see all kinds of stuff you wish you had not. -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
I Like this horse too, I grew up with Arabs, So watching this kind of action is familar to my eye I never used Machanical aids to get a horse to have more action... I just know it was done... The Arabs were suppose to be Natural... They had/have rules for length of toe Getting the horse to use his neck the way they have it bent at the pole is also a way to get the horse HIGHER in the front end... LIFTED, light using his hocks.. I like this horse, Just not the rider, nor the training methods they probebly do to short cut the training This horse has lots of Suspension, Dances off the ground, My Gaited Morgan can do that too, Tail flagging, ( I thought this horse was gingered, but in all fairness, I could be wrong, It could be natural, it was my first thought when I saw it ) He looks like he would be fun to ride -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
>From: "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >His tail. I suspect it was broken and put in a 'tail set' to keep it >upright. OMG!!! People do that?!!! V _ Get Cultured With Arts & Culture Festivals On Live Maps http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca&v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!2010&encType=1&style=h&FORM=SERNEP
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 25/08/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What is it that you can't stomach? > V His tail. I suspect it was broken and put in a 'tail set' to keep it upright. I might be wrong, I don't know enough about those things. Then the rider is absolutely just awful, and he's yarding on those reins... The whole thing just gives me the creeps... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
>From: "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >It struck me when I saw the subject line, I wonder if the owners of >this stallion realize that we have been looking at their site and have >basically labelled the discussion 'freak show'?? Well, the horse does look freaky the way it moves -- la daddy long legs spider.. V _ Former Police Officer Paul Gillespies TAKE BACK THE INTERNET tips and tricks, watch the video now http://safety.sympatico.msn.ca/ IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
>From: "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >He might not have weights on in the video when he's >moving without a rider (I'd look again, but I can't stomach it What is it that you can't stomach? V _ Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
>From: "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >The final consideration (that I can immediately think of anyway) is that >this horse is a stallion. Thank you Karen for taking the time to explain. I thought a lot of his action was because he is a stallion. I did notice the bell boots but not the length of hoof. Would his feet hurt? I noticed when he touched the ground his feet didn't stay down long--like a cat on a hot tin roof. V _ Windows Live Hotmail. Even hotter than before. Get a better look now. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA148
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
> So people in the US would actually pay $1500 to BREED from that? >> For who? The horse or the rider? Don't blame the horse for the idiot on >> his back.. Oh Wanda, you are too funny! Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.4/969 - Release Date: 8/23/2007 4:04 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Hi Debbie, >>>and this guy is one of the worst I have seen... I would certainly agree with that. I think you are also right about the motivation, Money, - the cheering, clapping show that somehow that is what the audience wants and if the trainers and breeders want to make money and stay in business they need clients and most people go to those who can get them ribbons right or wrong it is the reality in any business. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Hi Karen, >>>I think the problem with so many Saddleseat riders is that they try to post from a chair seat. That simply makes you fall out of balance. Chair seat to the max. He looked a little like a did trying to post on the camel I rode in Australia. They sit you so far back it really is like sitting in a chair. You are so right though, there is no need to sit so far back with your feet in front of you no matter what breed or discipline you are riding. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Yes, I saw it, way back, they do that a lot if you go to a show, they are trying to get all the weight off the front end of the horse, off the shoulder, to free it up... they just go about it really wrong... and this guy is one of the worst I have seen... Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 8/24/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I find it very frustrating in all the breeds.. Which is one major > reason I did not become an Arabian Horse Trainer when I was a kid... > > But park-type horses really don't do anything that really NEEDS suspension. > It's for show only. It can be useful though, if you want to jump or > practice dressage. It all depends on what you want to do with your horse - > no horse can do all things well. And seriously, if you post to the trot, > it's not an issue. My daughter learned to post on her Arab (and she can > even sit his trot) so to her, having that extra "oomph" puts her in the > rhythm better than riding a trot with no suspension. So, it also depends on > what you're used to. (I can ride Thunder's trot IF I post, but I never > learned to sit it.) > > Karen Thomas > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I could ride this trot... What I have an issue with is the training methods that go into training for the show world... -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
One can ride a Park trot, you just have to DO IT... it is called Practice... I'm not an athlete. I have no rhythm. I have arthritis and I'm just plain klutzy. I really don't think posting is all that hard...and if I can do it, I'd say almost anyone could learn. Oh, I'm sure others look nicer posting than I do, but I can do it. I think the problem with so many Saddleseat riders is that they try to post from a chair seat. That simply makes you fall out of balance. I had a bum hip for a few weeks in June, so I pulled my stirrups forward on my Sensation to get some temporary relief. It was fine for walking or gaiting. But, I tried to post on Melnir with them in that position and I about fell on my face! I just couldn't do it! If your feet are underneath you - and mine aren't always plumb-line straight, but I try to keep them fairly close - it's really not hard. The oblivious rider in the video was trying to combine "cantle sitting" with posting. Did you see how far back on the cantle he was landing when he did his "down" of the "up-down"? That was just goofy looking, and it obviously (to us anyway, if not to him!) wasn't working out so well. That poor horse... Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
I find it very frustrating in all the breeds.. Which is one major reason I did not become an Arabian Horse Trainer when I was a kid... But park-type horses really don't do anything that really NEEDS suspension. It's for show only. It can be useful though, if you want to jump or practice dressage. It all depends on what you want to do with your horse - no horse can do all things well. And seriously, if you post to the trot, it's not an issue. My daughter learned to post on her Arab (and she can even sit his trot) so to her, having that extra "oomph" puts her in the rhythm better than riding a trot with no suspension. So, it also depends on what you're used to. (I can ride Thunder's trot IF I post, but I never learned to sit it.) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Karen, I agree with every thing you just said in this post... On 8/24/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hard to say. I'd bet there is a good element of "naturalness" to the > suspension in that horse's trot. Some horses just innately have a lot of > suspension. And by suspension, I mean the "hang time" in the middle of the > strides. Arabs and Saddlebreds are known to have a lot of suspension, as > are warm bloods. I find it very frustrating in all the breeds.. Which is one major reason I did not become an Arabian Horse Trainer when I was a kid... -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
That shoulder is LAID back, not straights... I guess I disagree on that term, but we might not have the same definition of the term... straight shoulders are what QH's usually have, and the trot is stiff and short, ICKY in my opinion, I love riding a trot on a horse with a laid back shoulder, hate straight shouldered trots... -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 8/24/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Wanda, > >>>I don't know what's going on with other gaited breeds other than what > I see presented sometimes on this list, but I know I've really started > to cringe when I've seen videos or pics of what is going on in the > Icelandic show world.. AND that's the world that tugs at my heart > strings. > > I agree, my point was that it seems that it is the show world that promotes > the extremes - and as you mentioned - it is the judging that rewards it > which is why it is continually perpetuated. If a little is considered good > then why is more better? Part of the reason to answer your question is that Most of the time, the Judges are also Trainers the crowd goes wild the crowd does not always know what goes on behind the barn ETC... MONEY, MONEY, MONEY... -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
--- Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>I'm absolutely at polar ends from the show world and I wouldn't have it any other way.<< WELL SAID Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 24/08/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree, my point was that it seems that it is the show world that promotes > the extremes - and as you mentioned - it is the judging that rewards it > which is why it is continually perpetuated. If a little is considered good > then why is more better? It's a dangerous pit isn't it? It struck me when I saw the subject line, I wonder if the owners of this stallion realize that we have been looking at their site and have basically labelled the discussion 'freak show'?? When I see examples like this and I look out at what's blinking back at me from the front pasture...I feel as though I'm from Mars. I'm absolutely at polar ends from the show world and I wouldn't have it any other way. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:39:23 -0700, you wrote: >It was wanting the extreme of action which led him to this road but people >actually didn't like the looks of the horse nor the gaits the training >produces. It was actually after that particular incident at the WC that the FIPO was first changed to prohibit "unnatural training practises" like Robyn mentions from being used with Icelandics. Certainly we've not seen horses since with that "scared of the light" appearance. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:38:21 -0400, you wrote: should I go on? > >Just explain my questions above would be fine :) Oh I don't think so Karen, after all, I know from past experience you won't agree with me on anything, no matter how logical or reasoned my argument, so really, what's the point? We could carry on for weeks, but I really can't be bothered to get into yet another long and acrimonious debate with you, thanks. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Hi Wanda, >>>I don't know what's going on with other gaited breeds other than what I see presented sometimes on this list, but I know I've really started to cringe when I've seen videos or pics of what is going on in the Icelandic show world.. AND that's the world that tugs at my heart strings. I agree, my point was that it seems that it is the show world that promotes the extremes - and as you mentioned - it is the judging that rewards it which is why it is continually perpetuated. If a little is considered good then why is more better? Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 24/08/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It seems like one of the most important trait show riders - of many > disciplines - Arabs, Morgans, Saddlebreds, and many gaited horses is extreme > action. It is very sad for the horses Hi Robyn: I don't know what's going on with other gaited breeds other than what I see presented sometimes on this list, but I know I've really started to cringe when I've seen videos or pics of what is going on in the Icelandic show world.. AND that's the world that tugs at my heart strings. I looked through a site that someone sent the other day and while there were many good pics, there were tons that turned my stomach. I would like to see FEIF train it's judges properly and send a message about this type of riding. When asked by outsiders about this type of riding - I refuse to defend it anymore. It's just bad. Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
I dunno...could be a ton of reasons but the one reason that speaks to me is weighting. He might not have weights on in the video when he's moving without a rider (I'd look again, but I can't stomach it)...but if he was trained with weights...I would suspect that he would still move that way without them. I think it's a misconception that weights are the only way - or the major way - to manipulate gait. Remember, this horse isn't gaited. He's three-gaited - no pretense of gaitedness here. What they are manipulating here is the "knee action." His feet are long - not TWH-like with stacks and long toes, but the entire hoof is long. And his shoes are heavier than keg...not TWH-ish, but still heavy. And he's wearing bell boots. All of those things can add a lot of animation/lift/knee-action/whatever to a horse. >>> I don't want to spend any time worrying about whether the offspring would >>> be naturally gaited. There are too many other important things to train a >>> youngster for. I looked on this farm's website and they have some videos of their other stallions' babies at liberty. There is a good bit of natural suspension in the babies, even at liberty and when they are very young. Knee action...not so sure that's natural though... These folks only seem to have three-gaited horses. They have one stallion that is "attired" as five gaited (full mane, enhanced tail) but I didn't see him show gait in the videos. (Wait...do they still use those conventions for differentiating the 3's from the 5's? I really don't know that...) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 24/08/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > straight shoulder > > And what does a straight shoulder do to a horse, in relation to how they > move? What part of gait does it affect? I refuse to look at the video again, but if he does have a straight shoulder, AND plenty of animation in frontthat would indicate to me that there was some sort of man made interference with his stride. A straight shoulder would/should indicate a fairly economical stride in front would it not? I'm digging around for my conformation books.. Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Hi Karen, >>>Yeah, that's horrible riding. But, you know how it goes with show trends. Yes, sadly. The rider is posting, and hanging on the reins to do so. I really like Saddlebreds and think that what they put up with, in terms of the stabling, scaring them with fire extinguishers, flashes, noises says a lot that they are generally as sane as the ones I have met are. The long lining is being done with the horse in a bitting rig - sidereins, and often an overcheck are used to 'enhance' the horses natural upright posture. I agree with you that I think the horse has a lot of natural action looking at him free in the ring and considering that he probably just came of our a dark stall and is a stallion. I know that Walter Schmidt from Germany hired a Saddlebred trainer years ago to train his Icelandics and in the WC in Holland in 1983??? Or maybe later - Mic will know, a horse that won the German Championships was owned by him and trained in a saddlebred way - even kept in a dark trailer at the WC and they used a tape measurer snapping to get him to look 'sharp' when ridden. It was wanting the extreme of action which led him to this road but people actually didn't like the looks of the horse nor the gaits the training produces. It seems like one of the most important trait show riders - of many disciplines - Arabs, Morgans, Saddlebreds, and many gaited horses is extreme action. It is very sad for the horses Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? - long lining, etc.
On 24/08/07, Laree Shulman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We do plenty of exposure exercises (like "unwinding") > > > OOhh- I forgot about that one - that's a great ground exercise to prep > a horse for driving. It's one we always did before draping lines > around their legs to get them desensitized to that. AND basically just handling them with lead ropes is all just part of the training. I'm often dropping a lead line by accident or I'll take the end of it and just swing it over their backs. After a while they just become accustomed to their human being a clutz and they realize they won't die, if a lead line happens to get tangled in their legs or around a foot. They just stand quietly and wait for their human to untangle them. But the unwind gamethat's a good one. I'll have to try that on Dagur again today... Thanks for the reminder Karen. Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
Isn't it fairly obvious? Ewe neck, Ewe neck? I'm not sure that horse has a "conformational ewe neck". A swan neck maybe, but that's different. I feel sure he has a "developed" ewe neck from moving that way...but would that be a reason not to breed to him? I don't think how a horse is muscled up is genetically transmitted. Gosh, if we didn't breed to ewe-necked Icelandic stallions who would we breed to...now that Melnir is gelded anyway. :) >>> so much suspension that the amount of wear and tear on the joints must be horrendous, Does suspension cause wear and tear? I don't think so. A lot of Arabs have tons of natural suspension and many hold up for extremely demanding endurance careers. I think suspension can actually be a good thing...if it's natural. And, if it's not natural, it won't be transmitted to the babies anyway BTW, I own an Arab with TONS of very natural suspension. He's 27, was a hunter for years, showed dressage for a few years, and is sound as a dollar today. He has plenty of suspension barefoot and at leisure. He's one heck of a horse... :) no throatlatch to speak of, I don't know what you mean? I thought a THICK throatlatch is generally undesirable. What do you mean by "no throatlatch?" I can't remember ever hearing that before. >>>very long weak-looking pasterns, Yep. But I see a heck of a lot of Icelandic's whose pasterns virtually touch the ground when they tolt. Do his really look worse? And would they look so bad if his feet were trimmed to a normal length and in balance? Hard to say, but I'm still not positive any of this is conformational. It might be, but who can tell? straight shoulder And what does a straight shoulder do to a horse, in relation to how they move? What part of gait does it affect? >>> action like riding a pogo stick - >From bell boots and long feet, surely. But suspension in trot is sought after in many disciplines. It may not be your personal preference - it's certainly not mine - but is it a fault? Depends on the use of the horse. >>> should I go on? Just explain my questions above would be fine :) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? - long lining, etc.
We do plenty of exposure exercises (like "unwinding") > OOhh- I forgot about that one - that's a great ground exercise to prep a horse for driving. It's one we always did before draping lines around their legs to get them desensitized to that. -- Laree
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
I think some of it is Natural, when you look at the lay of his shoulder, very slopped, and you look at his hock action, but when you see the longer toes, I have seen longer, and how they are lifting him up in the front and hopping down on his back, it is not all natural... They have to be able to "DO IT" to some degree, if they are going to ENHANCE it... I grew up with Arabians, Many of the training methods that were used with the Saddlebreds were brought over to the Arabs for a while, that is why they started the National Show Horse registry too.. so they could do some of those training methods on the NSH's... lots of political CRAP going on behind the barn... YUCK... Virginia, that was BAD, but Normal riding for some Park riders, you see it all the time, it SUCKS... One can ride a Park trot, you just have to DO IT... it is called Practice... I never rode like that when I rode the Arabians and NSH's... there is absolutely no excuse for that kind of riding... NONE... what they are doing it shortening the stirrups, then trying to lift off the loins, to keep the weight back, free up the shoulders, but you really have got to have a strong knee and thigh to do it RIGHT.. not many can... and his hands, oh my god, that poor horse... he needs to watch this video and CHANGE or stay off the horses... unfortunately, they do not See themselves as poor riders... it is really to bad.. -- Debbie in MN ~ Please check out how we can all help raise money for Huginn's Hospital Fund ~ http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgtrq74d_386xtqp ~~~If we all do a little, we will have a lot
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On 24/08/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also, in that first part, what's going on in his > throatlatch area? Clipped? Or what? Who knows...personally I think there are so many man made things going on with this poor beast that nothing would surprise me.. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Freak Show? <:{
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:05:06 -0600, you wrote: >He might not have weights on in the video when he's >moving without a rider (I'd look again, but I can't stomach it)...but >if he was trained with weights...I would suspect that he would still >move that way without them. I just watched the video again (yuck) and it looks to me as if the first part shows him as a younger horse - maybe a 2 year old? I would assume untrained (though maybe that's a dangerous assumption with this horse) and the movement is relatively natural. Though he's only 4 now, of course. Also, in that first part, what's going on in his throatlatch area? Clipped? Or what? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
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On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:14:24 -0400, you wrote: >More specifically? Isn't it fairly obvious? Ewe neck, so much suspension that the amount of wear and tear on the joints must be horrendous, no throatlatch to speak of, very long weak-looking pasterns, straight shoulder, action like riding a pogo stick - should I go on? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
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On 24/08/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And...did you notice that the horse's feet are long? They are. > Not stacked like TWH, but the entire hoof is long. The shoes are bigger > than keg shoes too, but not the sort seen on Big Lick TWH. It's there > though, and there's no doubt it affects the way of moving. Long feet. Rightthat's another reason for animated motion in front. Just try to imagine putting on your husbands shoes and trying to get somewhere fast in them. You're breakover stride would be huge just to get those big feet our of your way. Yes, my knee action would be exagerated. I'd love to go for a ride right now, but everyone is having a flat out snore fest siesta. I hate to interrupt that. Wanda
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On 24/08/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So--the way Clout moves, those big, high-stepping moves are not natural? > V I dunno...could be a ton of reasons but the one reason that speaks to me is weighting. He might not have weights on in the video when he's moving without a rider (I'd look again, but I can't stomach it)...but if he was trained with weights...I would suspect that he would still move that way without them. If I was to ever breed a mare again (hypothetically speaking since I only have geldings)...I would want to see how a stallion moved in the pasture, barefoot and without a rider. I don't want to spend any time worrying about whether the offspring would be naturally gaited. There are too many other important things to train a youngster for. Wanda
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Newbie piping in.. So--the way Clout moves, those big, high-stepping moves are not natural? Hard to say. I'd bet there is a good element of "naturalness" to the suspension in that horse's trot. Some horses just innately have a lot of suspension. And by suspension, I mean the "hang time" in the middle of the strides. Arabs and Saddlebreds are known to have a lot of suspension, as are warm bloods. Generally, I think Icelandic's have very little suspension in their trots, although some have more than others. It's not showy, but it makes their trots generally very easy to ride. But, there's another element that should be separated from the suspension...what you call the "high stepping moves." Do you see the "knee action" or what Icelandic-types call "lift"? That is most assuredly enhanced. How? Well, for one thing, he's wearing bell boots. Park type trainers in the USA make no bones about using bell boots to enhance "action." It really doesn't even matter so much if they are weighted, but the very presence of something around their pasterns makes them want to lift out of it. And...did you notice that the horse's feet are long? They are. Not stacked like TWH, but the entire hoof is long. The shoes are bigger than keg shoes too, but not the sort seen on Big Lick TWH. It's there though, and there's no doubt it affects the way of moving. Honestly, this horse isn't showing nearly the evidence of enhanced knee action as many of the horses in the pictures from the recent Icelandic World Championships. I don't like the enhanced action of this horse, but sadly I've seen worse, recently, in our own breed. Note that suspension is generally considered a desirable trait in dressage horses, while "knee action" is generally considered faulty and a waste of energy. It's certainly not a desirable trait in a trail horse. People often compare the Icelandic show enhancements to the TWH stuff, and defenders often puff up in pride that we aren't like that. To me, though, this is a more accurate comparison. The long feet of a show Icelandic is more on par with a Saddlebred's feet, and so are the bell boots. I've talked to several vets who will tell you there is at least as much lameness in show Saddlebreds as with the TWH, other than the out and out soring. I'm talking about the tendon and ligament damage that can result from a horse's limbs being out of whack for extended periods. The final consideration (that I can immediately think of anyway) is that this horse is a stallion. There's a lot of testosterone in that strutting. Not only that, but most show-Saddlebreds are kept in small dark stalls, only brought out for training and showing. When they hit the light of day, they are invariably startled, so that only adds to the animated and showy image they desire. To me, that's as abusive as the stacks and almost as abusive as the soring. A horse shouldn't live in fear when he sees the world. I think emotional abuse is equally bad as physical abuse, maybe worse. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>From: "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Man...I still think it's bad training. Wouldn't it be interesting to >see how he would move if idiots hadn't trained him? Can you imagine >taking him on now and trying to undo all that damage? Newbie piping in.. So--the way Clout moves, those big, high-stepping moves are not natural? V _ Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122
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>From: Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Nothing to do with the rider - but the thought that people would >actually want to use a stallion that moves like that even without a >rider (as shown at the start of the video) horrifies me. Why? V _ Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122
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On 24/08/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nothing to do with the rider - but the thought that people would > actually want to use a stallion that moves like that even without a > rider (as shown at the start of the video) horrifies me. I finally found the video everyone was talking about. I had been just going by the pics. Man...I still think it's bad training. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how he would move if idiots hadn't trained him? Can you imagine taking him on now and trying to undo all that damage? I hated the ground driving segment as well. Those reins looked fairly weighty. Wanda
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Nothing to do with the rider - but the thought that people would actually want to use a stallion that moves like that even without a rider (as shown at the start of the video) horrifies me. More specifically? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:07:52 -0600, you wrote: >> So people in the US would actually pay $1500 to BREED from that? > >For who? The horse or the rider? Nothing to do with the rider - but the thought that people would actually want to use a stallion that moves like that even without a rider (as shown at the start of the video) horrifies me. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
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On 24/08/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So people in the US would actually pay $1500 to BREED from that? For who? The horse or the rider? Don't blame the horse for the idiot on his back.. Wanda gobsmacked as well...
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So people in the US would actually pay $1500 to BREED from that? And has that guy ever had a riding lesson in his life? ... Folks here criticise the way you see trot ridden by Icelandic riders, but my god, there's something to really complain about. Yeah, that's horrible riding. But, you know how it goes with show trends. Things evolve and winning takes over as opposed to riding or concern for the horses. Sad. I have the old "gold standard" of saddleseat equitation video, by Helen Crabtree. Someone gave it to me about 18-19 years ago when I first got my TWH - remember, VCR's hadn't been out so terribly long then, so there were precious few horsey videos of any type then. I watched it once and thought it too "prissy" and extreme for my needs, and didn't look at it again until a year or so ago. I was actually surprised when I looked at it again a year or so ago, to see how well the "young ladies" in that old video rode, posting as properly as imaginable, backs straight, and only slightly chair-seated. This is just another big ignorant redneck buffoon... unfortunately they seem to abound on every continent. But, I have to notice one thing about your comment. This is a stallion video. So, what does the way the horse is ridden have to do with how much the stud fee is? I mean, one would hope that any horse would have a better rider than that one, but if you're looking for a stallion, you should be looking at the HORSE, not the rider. Bad riding isn't transmitted genetically, and neither is good riding. At least they did show him at liberty and being ground driven, although I'd like to see him without those long feet, bell boots and side reins - and of course, with a better rider. (FWIW, I wouldn't pay $1500 for stud fee to breed my mares to ANY stallion personally, but I've seen some Icelandic's priced close to that, ones that I wouldn't breed to either.) Karen Thomas, NC
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I watched the video of this horse and what I want to know is when you see the man riding this horse, is he just a lousy rider, or does this type of "park" trot make posting impossible? I would like to ride a horse like this in a proper saddle and see what it feels like and to see how proper tack and proper riding would affect the horse as opposed to this "freak show I've never ridden a park Saddlebred, but I've seen them ridden. I have an ancient copy of the Helen Crabtree Saddle Seat Equitation. I can assure you it's quite possible to post correctly to a saddlebred's trot. In fact, the rider should be posting. It's just an example of some big buffoon being ignorant and unprepared to ride in a video...and so blissfully ignorant that he doesn't have a clue how unprepared he really is. It's just stupidbut we see a lot of stupid stuff in horse videos and at shows. Oh...wait...I made that exact same comment recently about some other big ignorant buffoons. I guess there are blissfully ignorant rednecks on every continent...and on every island >>>I would like to ride a horse like this in a proper saddle and see what it feels like and to see how proper tack and proper riding would affect the horse as opposed to this "freak show I'd like to see that horse without the long toes and the bell boots, and driven without the side reins. He looks like he might be a nice horse...too bad he has to deal with that rider... Karen Thomas, NC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:43:15 -0500, you wrote: >I don't get this ...freak show? >http://rookertrainingstable.com/stallions/clout.html > So people in the US would actually pay $1500 to BREED from that? And has that guy ever had a riding lesson in his life? Folks here criticise the way you see trot ridden by Icelandic riders, but my god, there's something to really complain about. I'm gobsmacked. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
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--- Raven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't get this ...freak show? > http://rookertrainingstable.com/stallions/clout.html > I watched the video of this horse and what I want to know is when you see the man riding this horse, is he just a lousy rider, or does this type of "park" trot make posting impossible? I would like to ride a horse like this in a proper saddle and see what it feels like and to see how proper tack and proper riding would affect the horse as opposed to this "freak show". Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/
