Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
From: Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] In roundness, the energy of the horse is within the circle, which bisects his mouth and his feet. What do you mean by roundness? Are you referring to a round, collected frame? Where did this information come from? Mary Sand Lake, NY
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
I did cure that pace! by Lee, or is it Liz... anyway. really works. I mean, jaspar will always be pacey, he has pacey conformation, but it got him out of the hard pace and where he will do some other gaits now, not quite sure what they are! But I know for a fact he does a nice relaxed stepping pace, and then some sort of flatwalk. My trouble with him is he is a very easy going laid back horse, low energy, so hard for me to get him really moving out at a consistent faster rate unless other horses are too. Once I got a flatwalk out of him I started noticing gaits he had never had before. I thought it was a RW but in a pic recently it looked like a foxwalk. I have had him a few times do a true rack, but he has never once done a saddle rack. For him, the few times he did a true rack was dropping into it out of a full blown gallop with other horses galloping. but it does not come easy for him and it is not a gait i would ever try and get him to do regularly. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
the only difference i see is that he appears to be in a turn... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
--- Mary Arena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The angle between the croup and back is closer to the neutral and round frames. I see it! Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
From: Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm referring to Lee's statement in the section, How Does a Horse Do a Pace or Stepping Pace, on page 157: Horses that pace always do so with hollow or slightly swayed backs. I don't think Stormur's back is always hollow or slightly swayed when he paces. I don't think anyone will fault Stormur's back for not being somewhat lifted, and you've done a good job with that. But, he DOES still show some elements of hollowness, like the trailing rear legs. That's all I'm saying, Karen. His back is not hollow. His one hind leg is certainly trailing, the other is well under him. Which brings up something I'm curious about that you said earlier. You said you trained him from front to back, and you also told Judy to look at his head and neck earlier. I've always been taught to get a horse going towards roundness/collection/whatever degree you're aiming for, that you should work from back-to-front, and that's certainly what I do. If you mean what I think you mean, then I wonder if he couldn't benefit from some work that would not only lift his back, but would also encourage him to drive his rear legs more under him. I don't believe you can achieve that correctly by riding front to back. I agree with you. However, in training, you never start with your goal. You have to go through a teaching process to teach the horse to move from back to front. In fact, you want to put as many steps between your beginning point and your goal as you can think of. It actually ends up allowing the horse to be more successful and progress faster in the training. I started Stormur using John Lyon's single rein riding, give to the bit, work, with a full cheek snaffle bit, no noseband. I did not use JL's round pen work with Stormur in his early training, though I have played with it a bit to learn how to do it correctly. I started from front to back with Stormur. It's not the only way to do it, but I believe that it builds in less braceyness, than starting at the rear, when you haven't taught the horse to be relaxed through his body. That said, there are some horses that I would definitely start with the rear end. I'm also curious: what kind of saddle do you use on him? I use a Sensation saddle. Mary
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
On 7/9/07, Mary Arena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with you. However, in training, you never start with your goal. You have to go through a teaching process to teach the horse to move from back to front. on the rfdtv dressage symposium he kinda talked about this, abourt German dressage being originally breed specific to warmbloods and you had to teach back to front but with thoroughbreds front to back. i think thats what he said! I will watch it again tonite. it was very interesting. and he did not bark at everybody like hitler like so many of the women do , sheesh! Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
In roundness, the energy of the horse is within the circle, which bisects his mouth and his feet. What do you mean by roundness? Are you referring to a round, collected frame? Where did this information come from? By roundness, I'm using the accepted use by classical dressage. It's not an official term, but used, nonetheless. I am not referring to collection. It's a feeling, a look, that the horse gives of being round. This look or feeling can be validated by applying the science of biomechanics, which for roundness starts at the hindquarters, with the legs under the mass: hindquarters engaged. The *engaged* hindquarters have the ability to lift the back, in relation to the withers. I will try to find additional information about the circle of roundness; in the meantime, here's some info on the two circles, and bringing them together: From the Scottish Dressage Society: As we have discussed in previous lessons, the horse's natural stance or balance is on the forehand, with most of his weight over the front legs. Your job as the rider is to rebalance the horse back onto the hind quarters and engage the most powerful part of the horse, the hind legs and quarters. This is where the half halt or half parade is used. You will notice that I am still not mentioning collection. The re-balancing or engagement of the hindquarters is just another part of preparation for collection. Collection, the principles of collection and how to achieve collection will be the subject of several lessons in the future. Itís a huge, misunderstood and misquoted subject. Now back to engagement, balance and the half halt. This way of visualizing the gathering up, the closing together and engagement of the horse was taught to me by Herr Kalman de Jarenak of the Hanovarian Society in Germany. Imagine that there are two circles. When the horse is long, not gathered but is on the aids, the circles are apart. One circle encompassing the forehand and second circle around the hindquarters. Your job as the dressage rider is to close these circles together. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com attachment: circlelonghorse.jpgattachment: circleenergy.jpg
RE: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
In roundness, the energy of the horse is within the circle, which bisects his mouth and his feet. That's a cool way of showing it, Judy. I've always tried to look for each of the symptoms separately, including the trailing rear leg(s), but that's an interesting way of visualizing it. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
Ah ha. So is this why Lee Ziegler says a pacing horse cannot be round, because by definition the lateral placement of his feet is going to fall ouside of the circle? Using that requirement, it does seem that the gait alone would prevent a pacing horse from falling into this interpretation of roundness. Again, I don't think Stormur is doing the same racetrack hard pace that Twist does. Lucky Stormur. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
From: Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would be pretty happy to call this horse round. In this photo, even though Stormur is moving in a very lateral way, he's stepping well under himself. I agree! In my experience, perfection is hard to come by. If Hunter, the TWH, ever EVER moved this way (even at liberty) I'd throw a party. Because he is primarily a racking horse, he is usually ventroflexed. Because of my dressage background, it always seems wrong to me. I breathe a sigh of relief when he drops his head and really steps up under himself at the flat walk. I think a lot of people in my area, which has a large dressage and hunter/jumper population, are very put off by the typical gaited horse appearance. One lady emailed me several years ago, after Stormur's picture appeared on the cover of the USIHC Quarterly Journal, that he was the reason that she decided to get an Icey. She hated the high headed, stiff necked, hollow backed look often seen, but after seeing Stormur's picture, she realized that they weren't all like that! He has been a great ambassador for the breed in the Northeast! Mary Sand Lake, NY
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
From: Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's a comparison of the one picture of Stormur and the round, neutral, hollow sketches. Thanks, Judy! I was really hoping you'd be able to do something like this! Here's what I see: Look at Stormur's croup. Compare it to the hollow drawing. His croup is lowered. He's stepping under farther with his hind leg than the horse in the drawing. WOW, I think that's really interesting. His croup looks like the neutral and rounded frame pictures. The only part of him that matches the hollow frame is his legs. His whole upper body is round! Mary Sand Lake, NY
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
Yes - the Arab riding endurance riders I condition with are quite put off by Hunter's gaitedness. He has now been accepted into the group as a viable limited distance horse, but it had taken two years. He ran a sharp stick into his sole a few months ago and when I asked my friend if he looked off, she said something like well, he moves so funny I don't think I can tell. In the beginning, one woman claimed Hunter was scaring the other horses. I'm not sure I ever bought into that because one time she rembers in particular I wasn't riding Hunter, but I did wonder if his different sounding footfalls were a signal to the trotting horses that something was wrong - he was afraid- therefore they should be. He has turned into the horse that can usually step forward and lead the group through scarey situations as he did recently when some folks wer shooting shooting shooting. He just walked bravely through all that noise with a line of grey Arabs coming along behind. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
Here's what I see: Look at Stormur's croup. Compare it to the hollow drawing. His croup is lowered. I don't see it; can you mark up the picture to show what it is lowered in relationship to? Thanks! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
Yes, I am referring to roundness. I agree with what you're saying here. I am wondering if it makes the horse lose the ability to rack. It sure didn't make Stormur lose his ability to pace I think anyone who knows gaited horses admits that there are not going to be horses so hardwired/conformed to pace that it will take a pure miracle to get them into anything else. Lee certainly said that many times. For those horses, the step pace maybe be the most comfortable option for a rider - or maybe even just walking. I'm referring to Lee's statement in the section, How Does a Horse Do a Pace or Stepping Pace, on page 157: Horses that pace always do so with hollow or slightly swayed backs. I don't think Stormur's back is always hollow or slightly swayed when he paces. I don't think anyone will fault Stormur's back for not being somewhat lifted, and you've done a good job with that. But, he DOES still show some elements of hollowness, like the trailing rear legs. Which brings up something I'm curious about that you said earlier. You said you trained him from front to back, and you also told Judy to look at his head and neck earlier. I've always been taught to get a horse going towards roundness/collection/whatever degree you're aiming for, that you should work from back-to-front, and that's certainly what I do. If you mean what I think you mean, then I wonder if he couldn't benefit from some work that would not only lift his back, but would also encourage him to drive his rear legs more under him. I don't believe you can achieve that correctly by riding front to back. I'm also curious: what kind of saddle do you use on him? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
Mary, do you see him as round in this picture? If so, can you point out where? I forgot to ask, were there any pictures of him from this session, or another time, taken directly from the side? (in this one, we see him more from the side and behind). Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
What do you see in the picture? What gait do you think he is doing? I think he's doing a stepping pace, bordering on hard pace. Stepping pace has a wide range, and I would place his, in this picture, far to the lateral side. We seem to be coming from different perspectives, mine from a dressage background, the rest of the list from a gaited horse background. Does that make one way right and the other wrong? Does it create problems with a gaited horse? No, one is not right and the other wrong; I think the basic principles are the same. I'm not sure what you mean by does it create problems with a gaited horse? There are, but I'd like to discuss this picture first. I like it because it clearly shows all 4 legs and his topline. I lightened the photo so you can see his topline better. OK. Back to your question about which image he looks like on page 34. Not *exactly* like any of them, but more like hollow than the others. I don't see round in this picture. The reason I asked for other pictures, is to be able to show you what I see. I'll do it with this picture, but a picture from the side would be better. First, I think that looking at the topline is only a little part of whether the frame is round, neutral, or hollow. I'm on my laptop at the moment (in bed, doing contrast therapy on my elevated leg) and I'd like to mark up his picture which I need to do on my desk computer, to go along with additional comments. Judy
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
From: Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] What do you see in the picture? What gait do you think he is doing? I think he's doing a stepping pace, bordering on hard pace. I agree. Stepping pace has a wide range, and I would place his, in this picture, far to the lateral side. I agree. I think if he were going straight, not on a large circle, he would probably doing a hard pace. We seem to be coming from different perspectives, mine from a dressage background, the rest of the list from a gaited horse background. Does that make one way right and the other wrong? Does it create problems with a gaited horse? No, one is not right and the other wrong; I think the basic principles are the same. Yes, I think so, too, but the focus is different. I am concerned for Stormur's long term soundness, being such a pacey horse. So, I invested a lot of time teaching him to relax through his body and elevate his back. I think if he had been trained by a gaited horse expert, that he would look, and probably move very differently. I am not experienced with other gaited breeds, and the iceys I have met are, for the most part, stiffer and more hollow than Stormur. At 15, he is very sound, (at least, between laminitis bouts!) and his back is beautiful, so I'm pretty happy with the way things have worked out. He is my main riding horse, so gets lots of miles on him. I'm not sure what you mean by does it create problems with a gaited horse? What I mean is: how does it affect the easy gaits? Does it change them, for better or for worse? OK. Back to your question about which image he looks like on page 34. Not *exactly* like any of them, but more like hollow than the others. I agree that he doesn't look exactly like any of them. We'll have to agree to disagree, as I think he's closer to round. I suspect you are looking from the rear end forward and I am looking from the front end back! I don't see round in this picture. What do you see in his head and neck? The reason I asked for other pictures, is to be able to show you what I see. I'll do it with this picture, but a picture from the side would be better. I'll need some time to get the other photos out and scanned. I have some family here today and can only do it on my husband's computer, which he takes to work. First, I think that looking at the topline is only a little part of whether the frame is round, neutral, or hollow. I agree. But Lee talks about pacey horses ALWAYS having hollow backs, not just hollow frames, so does it make sense to talk about whether the topline is round, neutral or hollow? I'm on my laptop at the moment (in bed, doing contrast therapy on my elevated leg) and I'd like to mark up his picture which I need to do on my desk computer, to go along with additional comments. I appreciate your input, Judy. Take your time. I hope your leg is getting better! Thanks, Mary
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
Yes, I think so, too, but the focus is different. I am concerned for Stormur's long term soundness, being such a pacey horse. So, I invested a lot of time teaching him to relax through his body and elevate his back. That's good. I think that's a good focus, and that you're doing a good job. I'm not sure what you mean by does it create problems with a gaited horse? What I mean is: how does it affect the easy gaits? Does it change them, for better or for worse? Sorry, I'm dense today what is it? I'm just not making the connection of what it refers to. I agree that he doesn't look exactly like any of them. We'll have to agree to disagree, as I think he's closer to round. I suspect you are looking from the rear end forward and I am looking from the front end back! Yes, correct. I don't see round in this picture. What do you see in his head and neck? I see that his head is on the vertical (as well as I can see if from the back end :-)); and that his neck is level with his body; not raised, not lowered, not telescoped. I'd like to see this picture from the opposite side, with his mane out of the way. In fact, it would be good to see conformation pictures of him. First, I think that looking at the topline is only a little part of whether the frame is round, neutral, or hollow. I agree. But Lee talks about pacey horses ALWAYS having hollow backs, not just hollow frames, so does it make sense to talk about whether the topline is round, neutral or hollow? OK... let's see I think the back *can* be hollow, without you, me, us, anybody, being able to see an obvious sag. Does that make any sense? It's a piece of the puzzle, but we have to look at the whole to get the answer. Remember the blind men feeling different parts of an elephant, and one thinks it's a snake because he's feeling the trunk, etc. (I don't remember the rest off hand.) If someone were to look *only* at his back, it looks neutral. If someone were to look *only* at his head and neck, it may appear rounded to them. Please be sure to know that anything that I say in regard to this picture is not criticism of you, or of Stormur. We're looking at body parts, body position, limb position, frames; nothing personal. Like Stormur, my faithful horse Ljufur was pacey, and no matter what, he was a joy. Thank you for sending in the picture; it's a great educational opportunity. More later, in the meantime, tell me why you look from front to back? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
My background is dressage with some hunter/jumper/combined training mixed in. I did always ride my dressage horses out on trail because I think it helps them to relax and also to use their hind ends. I readily confess to owning my first three gaited horses: TWH for two years, Icelandics a few months. I would be pretty happy to call this horse round. In this photo, even though Stormur is moving in a very lateral way, he's stepping well under himself. In my experience, perfection is hard to come by. If Hunter, the TWH, ever EVER moved this way (even at liberty) I'd throw a party. Because he is primarily a racking horse, he is usually ventroflexed. Because of my dressage background, it always seems wrong to me. I breathe a sigh of relief when he drops his head and really steps up under himself at the flat walk. Nancy - still learning
Re: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
--- Mary Arena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see his neck and poll as rounded, his back elevated, but his croup is not lowered, so he's not truly round. I do not see any hollowness. This picture really interests me. Actually, it confounds me a bit. What I see everytime I look at it is a pace with a level to round topline. But I know this can't be. So what am I not seeing??? I wish Lee was still around to explain this to me. Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
RE: [IceHorses] what gait / Stormur
What I mean is: how does it affect the easy gaits? Does it change them, for better or for worse? I'm not sure what you mean by it in this sentence...? Roundness/collection? Assuming that you mean roundness, does roundness help a horse gait better? Wouldn't that totally depend on where the horse is coming from in the beginning - what he's born with? If the horse is pacey and conformationally prone to hollowness, then yes, I feel sure you'd want to move him TOWARDS some degree of roundness or at least lack of hollowness if at all possible - as I gather you've done with Stormur. (Certainly not all the way to the roundness needed for piaffe, but just towards some degree of roundness...) But if the horse is born with ideal conformation to do an easy and natural gait like running walk or saddle rack, if you round him too much, then I think the soft gait will suffer. Does that mean you don't want to work this nicely-gaited horse towards more roundness? I guess that depends on the rider and the horse. I assume I'm probably not the only person who likes for their horses who can easily trot to do so, but there are pleasure riders who'd prefer that their horses never trot. I teach different cues for trot versus gait and try to use both - or all in the case of some of my multi-gaited horses. But, if a rider doesn't want to trot, they can certainly work the horse's back in other ways - with groundwork, lots of walking, doing a three-beat canter, getting him long and low for periods... I'm not sure that one way is right and the other wrong though, just two different ways to the same goal of a sound, healthy riding horse - one who's comfortable himself as well as for his rider. I agree. But Lee talks about pacey horses ALWAYS having hollow backs, not just hollow frames, so does it make sense to talk about whether the topline is round, neutral or hollow? I'm not sure what you mean. Lee's definitions of roundness, collection, etc. (pp 32-36 approximately in her book) are the same as I've read in classical dressage books - she talks about hollow backs as well as the other symptoms of a hollow frame, such as a rear end that doesn't lower. Here's something from the last paragraph on page 35 of Lee's book, which is the same as I've read in every good dressage book: There are many degrees of collection, from the slightly raised back of a horse just beginning to come away from a neutral position to the completely rounded frame of a horse working in a good piaffe. Can you point to something else in the book to clarify what you mean? Karen Thomas, NC
