Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 09:29:53PM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: > And, btw, we shouldn't "stand in the stirrups" when we post to the trot. In > my riding lessons over the years, I've had to spend certain amounts of time > posting and two-pointing without stirrups. My daughter's instructor had her > even cantering and going over jumps without stirrups. I've always had a > horrible habit of bracing my ankles when I ride, but I've gotten much better > at it - finally. I cringe a little when people talk about the tiny and > flexible Sensation butterfly piece causing white marks on their horse's > backs. How much weight are they putting in their stirrups? i daresay you might defer to people more experienced with the sensation, such as dana, on this one. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:22:35PM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: > all I can think of is if it was caused by the stirrups being free, > maybe from standing in the stirrups for stuff? posting or jumping or > something?? very likely, as i both post to the trot and jump, and try to keep my weight down low in general. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
>>> all I can think of is if it was caused by the stirrups being free, maybe >>> from standing in the stirrups for stuff? posting or jumping or something?? Cary and I both ride with the free-hanging stirrups, and Cary weighs over 235. And, btw, we shouldn't "stand in the stirrups" when we post to the trot. In my riding lessons over the years, I've had to spend certain amounts of time posting and two-pointing without stirrups. My daughter's instructor had her even cantering and going over jumps without stirrups. I've always had a horrible habit of bracing my ankles when I ride, but I've gotten much better at it - finally. I cringe a little when people talk about the tiny and flexible Sensation butterfly piece causing white marks on their horse's backs. How much weight are they putting in their stirrups? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/2007 8:34 PM
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On 12/3/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> gosh are you sure the sensation did it Vicka?? It takes a long long time > >>> for the white to show up! and when it does it usually sheds out and then > >>> if still using the bad saddle will come back. I just find it hard to > >>> believe a sensation could produce such severe nerve damage. > all I can think of is if it was caused by the stirrups being free, maybe from standing in the stirrups for stuff? posting or jumping or something?? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:17:29PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > Vicka? Do you have some pics of Stjarni's white hairs? i don't think so, and my camera (and my winter gloves and insulated paddock boots) are currently among the missing :/ but kaaren, did i send maybe you any pix at the time?? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 06:05:31PM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: > I find it very hard to believe that a Sensation, used for just two months > prior to a coat change would be the culprit, especially for a 100-ish pound > rider. i think it was more like six months, and the shape of the white hairs is just that of the "butterfly" inside the sensation. so whether you find it hard to believe or not, it is a better fit for the evidence than anything else. (his previous owner was a child, presumably even smaller than me.) stjarni also doesn't show back problems either in massage (by me) or by chiropractor (under either the old sensation or the hrimir; we haven't had the new sensation long enough to check yet). he occasionally gets a little stiff around the withers, and he was a bit of a mess after the shoe-throwing saga, but that's why he *has* a chiro. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
Hreggur's back muscles were terribly atrophied when he arrived hereand he didn't have one white hair. So there are many things that can do damage to a back. I see that we sent our posts in with the same thoughts, about the same time...but thinking about different horses. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/2007 8:34 PM
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On 03/12/2007, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I certainly wouldn't condemn a saddle if a few white hairs show up, > especially if there's no pain...but I also wouldn't count on the absence of > white hairs to "prove" that all is well. True. Hreggur's back muscles were terribly atrophied when he arrived hereand he didn't have one white hair. So there are many things that can do damage to a back. I still want to see pictures. Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
I know first-hand that saddle-induced white hairs can take YEARS to grow in. Many times the damage is cumulative...and of course, there are times when the white hairs are totally not related, as I mentioned earlier. I find it very hard to believe that a Sensation, used for just two months prior to a coat change would be the culprit, especially for a 100-ish pound rider. Personally, I'd be digging into the horse's past saddle history. Especially if the horse is not a youngster, and has been ridden by larger adults in the past. There's also a corollary to that. There are plenty of horses who are ridden in less than perfect-fitting saddles who never show any white hair damage. I know that Holly and Mac couldn't have always been ridden in perfect saddles...in fact, I'm pretty darned sure that Mac especially was ridden in some pretty bad ones. Mac, dark chestnut, had no white hairs on his saddle area when he died at 24, and Holly, black and 22 years old, also has no marks. I certainly wouldn't condemn a saddle if a few white hairs show up, especially if there's no pain...but I also wouldn't count on the absence of white hairs to "prove" that all is well. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/2007 8:34 PM
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
I'd like to see some pics of white hairs on backs that people think are caused by saddles. Does anyone have pics of this? Vicka? Do you have some pics of Stjarni's white hairs? Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
>>> gosh are you sure the sensation did it Vicka?? It takes a long long time >>> for the white to show up! and when it does it usually sheds out and then >>> if still using the bad saddle will come back. I just find it hard to >>> believe a sensation could produce such severe nerve damage. I know first-hand that saddle-induced white hairs can take YEARS to grow in. Many times the damage is cumulative...and of course, there are times when the white hairs are totally not related, as I mentioned earlier. I find it very hard to believe that a Sensation, used for just two months prior to a coat change would be the culprit, especially for a 100-ish pound rider. Personally, I'd be digging into the horse's past saddle history. Especially if the horse is not a youngster, and has been ridden by larger adults in the past. Cary is 235 pounds and has ridden a number of horses in his Sensations...and unless he's been sneaking out at night riding yearling Tifa, we haven't seen any white hair problems. Of course, much of Skjoni's back is white anyway, but Skjoni's back checks great - by us and by the chiropractor. For the record, he uses the free-swinging stirrup arrangement. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/2007 8:34 PM
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 11:22:25AM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: > gosh are you sure the sensation did it Vicka?? yes. he was ridden in treed saddles for eight years, then after the next coat change after i got the sensation, the white hairs appeared. talking with my dealer, the white hairs are in just the place where the "butterfly" is in the sensation saddle. i'm not heavy and there were no buckles in that area. i am still hoping that we caught it early enough and have treated it aggressively enough that it will eventually shed out, but time will tell. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
> *nod* that is how i feel about my previous experience with the > sensation. i still rub vit e cream on stjarni's back in the hopes that > the white hairs will fade > > i *am* trying another sensation, but this one with shorter flaps so i > can use the other stirrup rigging method. gosh are you sure the sensation did it Vicka?? It takes a long long time for the white to show up! and when it does it usually sheds out and then if still using the bad saddle will come back. I just find it hard to believe a sensation could produce such severe nerve damage. I could see if you were heavy maybe. Or was there a buckle or something rubbing?? In my experience with Jaspar and bad saddle fit the white showed up a year later. I would be riding thinking it was a good saddle for him and then the white spots would come a long time later. like I said, sometimes a year. also rubbing can cause white spots and they will shed out. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 06:23:24PM -0800, Nancy Sturm wrote: > And a friend's endurance horse has nasty white patches on either side of his > spine, just behind the withers. I know we all make mistakes and I surely > have made my share, but I really would feel awful if I were using tack > that fitted so poorly that my horse ended up with permanent white patches - > proof forever of my error. *nod* that is how i feel about my previous experience with the sensation. i still rub vit e cream on stjarni's back in the hopes that the white hairs will fade i *am* trying another sensation, but this one with shorter flaps so i can use the other stirrup rigging method. failing that, there's always the hrimnir, and if it puts *my* lower leg too far forward that's still better imho than rubbing s's back the wrong way. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
>>> Twist, the OT Standardbred has white hairs on his legs where the track hobbles probably rested. I've seen white dots on TB cannons where they have been pinfired. Holly has a big white mark on one of her shoulders from an old bite mark. Thunder has white marks under where his saddle was - but they didn't appear until late in his life, when he hadn't been regularly ridden for several years. Also, his face now has a lot of white, as does most of his body, so I can't swear the white under the saddle area is from a bad saddle - he's 28. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
When you see a horse who has white hairs from tack or harness, it isn't particularly subtle. Dusty, a grade driving pony, came to us with white hair (lots of it) where a crupper would have rested and also where the saddle part of the harness would sit. Twist, the OT Standardbred has white hairs on his legs where the track hobbles probably rested. And a friend's endurance horse has nasty white patches on either side of his spine, just behind the withers. I know we all make mistakes and I surely have made my share, but I really would feel awful if I were using tack that fitted so poorly that my horse ended up with permanent white patches - proof forever of my error. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
>>> I was concerned that Hunter had a few white hairs on his back - sort of silly, actually, because he has a few white hairs interwoven with the black in places where a saddle never would have touched. I know they CAN indicate a problem, and maybe even they PROBABLY do, but I have two horses with white hairs that have either never had a saddle (Tifa and Angie) and several where the hairs aren't under where any saddle ever sat. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs on back
I was concerned that Hunter had a few white hairs on his back - sort of silly, actually, because he has a few white hairs interwoven with the black in places where a saddle never would have touched. Anyway the saddle fitter laughed at me. He said "Those sure didn't come from THIS saddle." Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs
On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 11:39:58AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > whoops I guess I only sent the pic of Jas, here is the one of teevs > back from the same saddle pad In my opinion. what hgappens I think is > when nylon webbing gets wet with sweat, and salty, it is very > abrasive! wow. tivar's coloring reminds me so much of stjarni's! the pattern of stjarni's whitening is different though -- more in a small shaped blotch than a line. and his saddle pad is just sheepskin on the bottom, though on reflection and discussion it may still be too hot underneath during the hot weather after his winter coat's coming in. i've recently sometimes dismounted to find him quite cool under the chest, then taken off his saddle to find him still hot underneath --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs
On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 09:58:58AM -0600, IceDog wrote: > Good for you Vicka for trying to identify and remedy the cause of the white > hairs. You may have caught it quickly enough that they may disappear over > time. thanks for the very kind words! i hope it does get better. i'm treating the area with the same vet cream i use when he has actual cuts, which seems to have helped keep him from developing white hairs there. and of course i'm already working on seeing if i can determine/remediate the cause...stjarni's comfort and well-being matter to me more than anything. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs
Considering it is new coat time and Vicka is suddenly seeing white hairs, it's very possibly a recent event that has caused damage. IME the damage can happen with very brief periods pressure. Also IME the white hairs can go away if the damage was caused by a very brief event and was not too severe. Good for you Vicka for trying to identify and remedy the cause of the white hairs. You may have caught it quickly enough that they may disappear over time. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses and Icelandic Sheepdogs email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.toltallyice.com
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs
On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 09:05:25AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > I think the damage that causes white hairs can happen fairly quickly. > IME it's the appearance of the white hairs that may be delayed until the > growth of the new coat, or it may even be the next same season coat before > the white hair shows up. > > > That's what I believe too - so it's not terribly likely that a saddle just > purchased in June-July of this year would have caused enough damage to make > white hairs show up now, just two months later, especially if the saddle is > a soft and flexible treeless saddle mainly used by lightweight riders. *shrug* it seems even less likely that eight years in a properly-fitted treed saddle would suddenly, six months after it stopped seeing much use, result in white hairs. i started with the trial of the treeless in the spring, so i'd say it's been in use for half a year, and the white hairs JUST HAPPEN to be under the spot where the stirrups spread the weight on either side of his spine. i bow to occam (and kaaren of course :). > discussion has been a common one on the treeless list, since many folks > there have struggled for many years with poorly fitting treed saddles. whereas stjarni has never, as far as i know and his coat can tell me, worn an improperly-fitted treed saddle. > Possibly, the damage could show up as white hairs earlier, but I believe it > would take a LOT of pressure in a concentrated area to do so quickly - as > with a very heavyweight rider, or with a treed saddle that is bridging or > pinching really badly. could be that 110# of me jumping him in the sensation has done it. if you look over stjarni's whole body, he's got white hairs here and there, incl. a fairly prominent patch on one hip; it may be that (as discussed previously) some horses are just sensitive that way. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] white hairs
I think the damage that causes white hairs can happen fairly quickly. IME it's the appearance of the white hairs that may be delayed until the growth of the new coat, or it may even be the next same season coat before the white hair shows up. That's what I believe too - so it's not terribly likely that a saddle just purchased in June-July of this year would have caused enough damage to make white hairs show up now, just two months later, especially if the saddle is a soft and flexible treeless saddle mainly used by lightweight riders. This discussion has been a common one on the treeless list, since many folks there have struggled for many years with poorly fitting treed saddles. The consensus from the saddle fitters I've talked to, is generally to look at least several months back, and maybe even a couple of years prior. Possibly, the damage could show up as white hairs earlier, but I believe it would take a LOT of pressure in a concentrated area to do so quickly - as with a very heavyweight rider, or with a treed saddle that is bridging or pinching really badly. For comparison, there are some heavyweight (Cary's approximate weight - over 225 pounds) riders on the treeless list who have been doing endurance riding (50 miles and longer) in the Barefoot saddles for 2-3 years now. To me, the Barefoots aren't a lot more than glorified bareback pads, but supposedly the riders are compensating with padding, and the horses appeared sound and pain-free. (I wouldn't feel comfortable with Cary riding in a Barefoot for very long rides.) Anyway, a couple of riders have just reported that some white hairs are finally showing up, but it has taken a couple of years to see them. Who's to say - MAYBE the hairs would have shown up regardless of the saddle used, considering the distances involved and the weight of the riders...? I don't have any first-hand experience to offer for that scenario. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1002 - Release Date: 9/11/2007 5:46 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] white hairs
> That sounds really quick for white hairs to come in. Usually, it takes > consistent pressure over time for white hairs to come in. I think the damage that causes white hairs can happen fairly quickly. IME it's the appearance of the white hairs that may be delayed until the growth of the new coat, or it may even be the next same season coat before the white hair shows up. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses and Icelandic Sheepdogs email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.toltallyice.com IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
