Deleting from this mailing list

[Mounir Benzaid]

Could you delete my Email from this mailing list:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you.

Best regards.

Re: Barrel-bottom scraping

[John A. Loughney]

Hi all,

> On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 06:58:32AM +0200, Pekka Savola allegedly wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > > [...] However, I think doing some ISOC/IETF joint
> > > tutorials just before an IETF is definitely worth a try.
> >
> > That would unarguably incur a clear increase or tourists and/or
disrupting
> > marketeers/managers. Bu this may already be considered to be
happening --
> > now we'd just get the cash in.

Aren't we being a bit holery-than-though?  Are we suggesting that we are
superior than tourists, marketers, mangagers? This is one very bad
feature of the IETF - many of us feel that we are superior than others.

I think that ISOC/IETF tutorials could be a very good idea.  It would at
least give us the opportunity to brain-wash others for the things which
we believe.

br,
John

Re: Barrel-bottom scraping

[Randy Bush]

> I think that ISOC/IETF tutorials could be a very good idea.  It would at
> least give us the opportunity to brain-wash others for the things which
> we believe.

yup.  but, as one would want them done by the well clued and best
speakers, it would be nice if they were not too close to ietf
meetings.

randy

Tutorials

[Charlie Perkins]

Hello Randy,

Since they would be taught by IETF engineers, probably for
not all that much money, it seems a bit onerous to ask the
benefactors to do more travel so that they carry out a difficult
task mostly for the benefit of the IETF.
Someone else pointed out that tutorials don't automatically
make money.  This is very true.  In order to succeed, the tutorials
would have to be publicized well, and taught by instructors who
can relate to an audience of less-informed but interested people.
I understand the desire to maintain a high level of technical
competence at IETF meetings, but I am pretty sure that does
not preclude raising the general level of awareness of the
"great unwashed".   Perhaps just the opposite, in fact.
Regards,
Charlie P.
PS. I wouldn't suggest asking people to teach the tutorials
  for free.  It's amazing how much better it feels to get some
  money for the effort, even if the sponsoring organization is
  getting most of the financial benefit.  Maybe instructors
  could get a plaid sticker for their badges :-)
Randy Bush wrote:

I think that ISOC/IETF tutorials could be a very good idea.  It would at
least give us the opportunity to brain-wash others for the things which
we believe.
   

yup.  but, as one would want them done by the well clued and best
speakers, it would be nice if they were not too close to ietf
meetings.
randy

 

Re: Tutorials

[Randy Bush]

> Since they would be taught by IETF engineers, probably for
> not all that much money, it seems a bit onerous to ask the
> benefactors to do more travel so that they carry out a difficult
> task mostly for the benefit of the IETF.
> ...

charlie, you're talking to someone who has spent a considerable amount
of their time over the last 15 years doing pro bono technology transfer.
so my lack of sympathy for your argument may not be very representative.

randy

Re: Barrel-bottom scraping

[Pekka Savola]

On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, John A. Loughney wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 06:58:32AM +0200, Pekka Savola allegedly wrote:
> > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > > > [...] However, I think doing some ISOC/IETF joint
> > > > tutorials just before an IETF is definitely worth a try.
> > >
> > > That would unarguably incur a clear increase or tourists and/or
> disrupting
> > > marketeers/managers. Bu this may already be considered to be
> happening --
> > > now we'd just get the cash in.
> 
> Aren't we being a bit holery-than-though?  Are we suggesting that we are
> superior than tourists, marketers, mangagers? This is one very bad
> feature of the IETF - many of us feel that we are superior than others.

I'm not saying *superior*, just *different*.  I'm not really interested in
marketing, management etc. conferences either.

I fail to see what added value they might bring, but as long as they
wouldn't waste any more time on the meetings (by de facto requiring making
dumber slides etc.) or make the meeting room reservations more difficult,
it might not be too bad.

-- 
Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oykingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

Happy Lady Day

[anthony]

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Re: slide fonts

[Randy Presuhn]

Hi -

> From: "Dave Crocker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Perry E. Metzger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:40 AM
> Subject: Re: slide fonts
...
> The usual rule is never go below 18pt. 24-28pt is the better choice.
>
> Equally important is contrast.  Use only primary colors and make sure
> that text always is very high contrast with its background.
...

Black and white is the sensible choice.  I recall one
presentation that used red to identify important points.
It will probably lose much of its impact in the hardcopy
proceedings.  :-)

Randy

Re: Barrel-bottom scraping

[Paul Hoffman / IMC]

At 12:05 AM +0200 3/24/03, Pekka Savola wrote:
I fail to see what added value they might bring
They could be very useful to explaining to our management and 
marketing departments and so on the value of standards, particularly 
IETF standards. Further, because most companies focus on a small part 
of the Internet, they could show why the whole picture is important.

And I agree that they should not be held next to IETF meetings. Maybe 
once a year between meetings, or in conjunction with other 
"networking events" that these people might go to, such as N+I or 
Comnet.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium

Re: Barrel-bottom scraping

[grenville armitage]

"John A. Loughney" wrote:
[..]
> Aren't we being a bit holery-than-though?  Are we suggesting that we are
> superior than tourists, marketers, mangagers?

If one isn't any better than tourists, marketers or mangagers then
I'd suggest one re-thinks why one is attending _working_ group meetings.

cheers,
gja

Re: Barrel-bottom scraping

[Dave Crocker]

John,

JAL> Aren't we being a bit holery-than-though?  Are we suggesting that we are
JAL> superior than tourists, marketers, mangagers?

of course.

but separate from the possibility of ethnocentric arrogance is the
reality of distraction. to the extent that such participation makes it
difficult for us to get our engineering work done, those other folks
are a problem.

(my own opinion is that their presence is fine, as long as we do not
distort our agendas and schedules to accomodate them.  constantly
doing mini-tutorials and presentations during extremely scarce meeting
time might be an example of that.)


JAL> I think that ISOC/IETF tutorials could be a very good idea.

As an idea unto itself, it does sound appealing. As you note, there is
benefit is spreading the IETF technical word beyond ourselves but by
ourselves.

As a means of trying to fix basic IETF financials, it means that we
would be relying on a new business venture that is a) unproven for the
IETF to do, and b) entirely unrelated to the core work of producing
specifications.  As such it is a distraction.

Organizations often lose focus in this way.


d/
--
 Dave Crocker 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
 Sunnyvale, CA  USA , 

RE: Barrel-bottom scraping

[Franck Martin]

Is that called INET meetings?

Franck Martin


> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Hoffman / IMC [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 24 March 2003 12:11 
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Barrel-bottom scraping
> 
> 
> At 12:05 AM +0200 3/24/03, Pekka Savola wrote:
> >I fail to see what added value they might bring
> 
> They could be very useful to explaining to our management and 
> marketing departments and so on the value of standards, particularly 
> IETF standards. Further, because most companies focus on a small part 
> of the Internet, they could show why the whole picture is important.
> 
> And I agree that they should not be held next to IETF meetings. Maybe 
> once a year between meetings, or in conjunction with other 
> "networking events" that these people might go to, such as N+I or 
> Comnet.
> 
> --Paul Hoffman, Director
> --Internet Mail Consortium
> 

Re: slide fonts

[Scott W Brim]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 02:58:47PM -0800, Randy Presuhn allegedly wrote:
> Black and white is the sensible choice.  I recall one
> presentation that used red to identify important points.
> It will probably lose much of its impact in the hardcopy
> proceedings.  :-)

I don't know anyone who has asked for hardcopy proceedings for years.