Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Hi Henk,

In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast
train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
not the case.

The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
international local airport.

WE can't recommend train if we don't "sample" it.

And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you:

"Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
been updated for ages !".

I think we could have avoided and we SHOULD avoid this mess to the
participants.

Regards,
Jordi




> From: Henk Uijterwaal 
> Organization: RIPE NCC
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:38:23 +0200
> To: 
> Subject: Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to
> Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
> 
> Jordi,
> 
>> Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was
>> totally FALSE.
>> This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a
>> venue.
> 
> The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate.  It lists the trains,
> arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains.
> In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to
> come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not
> intend to run.
> 
> Of course, the system is as good as its input data.  If there is a
> technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify
> you about that as soon as the data is entered.  In practice, this means
> some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident,
> then decent warning messages appear.
> 
> That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train
> sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule.
> 
> Henk
> 
> -- 
> --
> Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
> RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
> P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
> 1001 EB Amsterdam  1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
> The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746
> --
> 
> I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician.
> ___
> Ietf mailing list
> Ietf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf



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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Ole Jacobsen]

Jordi,

I have no idea how you managed to have such a bad experience. I 
travelled on German, Dutch and Belgian railways to/from Maastricht and 
all the info I got in advance was 100% accurate, right down to what
platform the trains departed from.

I did hear that there was some confusion about whether or not express
trains ran on the weekends from Brussels, but beyond that I am not
aware of the total chaos you describe.

Ole


Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: o...@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj



On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

> Hi Henk,
> 
> In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
> railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast
> train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
> not the case.
> 
> The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
> and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
> participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
> international local airport.
> 
> WE can't recommend train if we don't "sample" it.
> 
> And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
> station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you:
> 
> "Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
> been updated for ages !".
> 
> I think we could have avoided and we SHOULD avoid this mess to the
> participants.
> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Henk Uijterwaal 
> > Organization: RIPE NCC
> > Reply-To: 
> > Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:38:23 +0200
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to
> > Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
> > 
> > Jordi,
> > 
> >> Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was
> >> totally FALSE.
> >> This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting 
> >> a
> >> venue.
> > 
> > The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate.  It lists the trains,
> > arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains.
> > In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to
> > come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not
> > intend to run.
> > 
> > Of course, the system is as good as its input data.  If there is a
> > technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify
> > you about that as soon as the data is entered.  In practice, this means
> > some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident,
> > then decent warning messages appear.
> > 
> > That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train
> > sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule.
> > 
> > Henk
> > 
> > -- 
> > --
> > Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
> > RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
> > P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
> > 1001 EB Amsterdam  1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
> > The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746
> > --
> > 
> > I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician.
> > ___
> > Ietf mailing list
> > Ietf@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> 
> 
> 
> **
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> 
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or 
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the 
> individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware 
> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this 
> information, including attached files, is prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Hi Ole,

That's what I understood from the web site, and that's why I not complained
with the difficulties on Sunday, but I was departing on Friday, which is a
week-day, unless I've got it wrong :-)

What I'm saying was the response from the train ticketing people in Liege if
I recall correctly. Also they give me the incorrect information in the
office about the faster way to reach the airport ... Then I was lucky to ask
again in the tracks, while waiting the train and one of the employees that
check for the people having a ticket or not (inside the train), provided me
a better/faster route.

Even if your experience has been different, I'm not making it. I've a
written complain and already a response from Belgium trains. They ask their
excuses, and confirm that it has not been updated (the info in the web site)
for years, and that it is not definitively accurate.

Regards,
Jordi




> From: Ole Jacobsen 
> Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen 
> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
> Cc: 
> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,
> Sat 07:09
> 
> Jordi,
> 
> I have no idea how you managed to have such a bad experience. I
> travelled on German, Dutch and Belgian railways to/from Maastricht and
> all the info I got in advance was 100% accurate, right down to what
> platform the trains departed from.
> 
> I did hear that there was some confusion about whether or not express
> trains ran on the weekends from Brussels, but beyond that I am not
> aware of the total chaos you describe.
> 
> Ole
> 
> 
> Ole J. Jacobsen
> Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
> Cisco Systems
> Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
> E-mail: o...@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> 
>> Hi Henk,
>> 
>> In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
>> railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast
>> train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
>> not the case.
>> 
>> The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
>> and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
>> participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
>> international local airport.
>> 
>> WE can't recommend train if we don't "sample" it.
>> 
>> And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
>> station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you:
>> 
>> "Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
>> been updated for ages !".
>> 
>> I think we could have avoided and we SHOULD avoid this mess to the
>> participants.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: Henk Uijterwaal 
>>> Organization: RIPE NCC
>>> Reply-To: 
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:38:23 +0200
>>> To: 
>>> Subject: Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to
>>> Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
>>> 
>>> Jordi,
>>> 
>>>> Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was
>>>> totally FALSE.
>>>> This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting
>>>> a
>>>> venue.
>>> 
>>> The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate.  It lists the trains,
>>> arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains.
>>> In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to
>>> come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not
>>> intend to run.
>>> 
>>> Of course, the system is as good as its input data.  If there is a
>>> technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify
>>> you about that as soon as the data is entered.  In practice, this means
>>> some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident,
>>> then decent warning messages appear.
>>> 
>>> That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train
>>> sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule.
>>> 
>>> Henk
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
>>> RIPE Network Coordination Cen

Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Henk Uijterwaal]

Hi Jordi,

> In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
> railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast
> train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
> not the case.

It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the
NS on their website can then be considered authoritative.

> The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
> and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
> participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
> international local airport.

I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was discussed
before I joined the IAOC.  But even if the question was asked, I don't
quite see how this would have solved your problem.  3 of the IAOC members
had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that
the information on the website was 100% accurate.

> And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
> station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: 
> "Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
> been updated for ages !".

This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways
recommend to check their websites to plan a trip.   And again, I have
yet to come across a case where the website different from the
intention of the railway company to run a train.

Henk

-- 
--
Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam  1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746
--

I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician.
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Hi Henk,

This is the web site that was referred by the host web site for the fast
speed train:

http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/?id=26

And still has the wrong information about the timing (the site has not been
updated since the IETF, despite the written complain done to the train
management and their confirmation that was not updated).

Regards,
Jordi




> From: Henk Uijterwaal 
> Organization: RIPE NCC
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:08:30 +0200
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,
> Sat 07:09
> 
> Hi Jordi,
> 
>> In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
>> railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast
>> train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
>> not the case.
> 
> It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the
> NS on their website can then be considered authoritative.
> 
>> The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
>> and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
>> participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
>> international local airport.
> 
> I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was discussed
> before I joined the IAOC.  But even if the question was asked, I don't
> quite see how this would have solved your problem.  3 of the IAOC members
> had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that
> the information on the website was 100% accurate.
> 
>> And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
>> station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you:
>> "Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
>> been updated for ages !".
> 
> This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways
> recommend to check their websites to plan a trip.   And again, I have
> yet to come across a case where the website different from the
> intention of the railway company to run a train.
> 
> Henk
> 
> -- 
> --
> Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
> RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
> P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
> 1001 EB Amsterdam  1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
> The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746
> --
> 
> I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician.
> ___
> Ietf mailing list
> Ietf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf



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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Joel Jaeggli]

On 8/26/10 6:01 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> This is the web site that was referred by the host web site for the fast
> speed train:
> 
> http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/?id=26
> 
> And still has the wrong information about the timing (the site has not been
> updated since the IETF, despite the written complain done to the train
> management and their confirmation that was not updated).


Perhaps when you're done fixing the Belgian rail system you can fix the
government as well...

> Regards,
> Jordi
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Henk Uijterwaal 
>> Organization: RIPE NCC
>> Reply-To: 
>> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:08:30 +0200
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,
>> Sat 07:09
>>
>> Hi Jordi,
>>
>>> In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
>>> railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast
>>> train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
>>> not the case.
>>
>> It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the
>> NS on their website can then be considered authoritative.
>>
>>> The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
>>> and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
>>> participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
>>> international local airport.
>>
>> I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was 
>> discussed
>> before I joined the IAOC.  But even if the question was asked, I don't
>> quite see how this would have solved your problem.  3 of the IAOC members
>> had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that
>> the information on the website was 100% accurate.
>>
>>> And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
>>> station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you:
>>> "Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
>>> been updated for ages !".
>>
>> This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways
>> recommend to check their websites to plan a trip.   And again, I have
>> yet to come across a case where the website different from the
>> intention of the railway company to run a train.
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> -- 
>> --
>> Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
>> RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
>> P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
>> 1001 EB Amsterdam  1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
>> The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746
>> --
>>
>> I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician.
>> ___
>> Ietf mailing list
>> Ietf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> 
> 
> 
> **
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> 
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or 
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the 
> individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware 
> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this 
> information, including attached files, is prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Olaf Kolkman]

On Aug 26, 2010, at 3:07 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm forwarding this message to the general IETF mailing list, because I
> think we need a good discussion on this and the confirmation from the
> secretariat/IAOC that this work will be done CORRECTLY NEXT TIME.
> 
> The fact is that if we don't make sure that a venue has good connections
> then should not be candidate to be an IETF venue.
> 
> I'm not referring to plane vs train. I'm fine with train if the information
> provided is accurate. Some times, for people in Europe, train can be more
> convenient than planes, but this is only true if the train system is
> reliable in general (of course, a strike, crash or anything like that is
> something that we can't predict/avoid).
> 
> Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was
> totally FALSE.
> 
> This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a
> venue.
> 
> I hope that we learn the lesson.



Jordi,

You are suggesting that the secretariat or the IAOC does research into the 
correctness of information that is linked from the host site, correct?

If so: The host site is _not_ the responsibility of the IAOC or the 
secretariat, it is the responsibility of the host. And although I would agree 
that there should be some expectation that the host does its best to provide 
accurate venue information one cannot expect the host to actually _test_ 
whether sites that (in their eyes) are supposed to give authoritative 
information are actually correct.

Suppose that this link was not provided by the host.

You would probably have googled for "Maastricht Brussels Train"? That query 
provides me with the mentioned site as first hit.  Would you have complained to 
google that the first hit for that query contained false information?

But to the underlying point: I think the responsibility of the IAOC and 
secretariat stops with providing accurate hotel and venue location information. 
How to get from home to the venue is _your own_ responsibility by which you 
might be aided through links provided by the hosts and hints and tips from your 
colleagues on the various IETF lists. I would agree that it is fair to expect 
that folk providing those hints and tips do so diligently but that is not the 
responsibility of the IAOC or Secretariat.


On purely personal title,

--Olaf



 

Olaf M. KolkmanNLnet Labs
   Science Park 140, 
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/   1098 XG Amsterdam

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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Jiankang YAO]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joel Jaeggli" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,Sat 
07:09


> On 8/26/10 6:01 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>> 
>> This is the web site that was referred by the host web site for the fast
>> speed train:
>> 
>> http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/?id=26
>> 
>> And still has the wrong information about the timing (the site has not been
>> updated since the IETF, despite the written complain done to the train
>> management and their confirmation that was not updated).
> 
> 
> Perhaps when you're done fixing the Belgian rail system you can fix the
> government as well...
> 


very interesting point.


>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: Henk Uijterwaal 
>>> Organization: RIPE NCC
>>> Reply-To: 
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:08:30 +0200
>>> To: 
>>> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,
>>> Sat 07:09
>>>
>>> Hi Jordi,
>>>
>>>> In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch
>>>> railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the 
>>>> fast
>>>> train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was
>>>> not the case.
>>>
>>> It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the
>>> NS on their website can then be considered authoritative.
>>>
>>>> The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point
>>>> and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the
>>>> participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good
>>>> international local airport.
>>>
>>> I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was 
>>> discussed
>>> before I joined the IAOC.  But even if the question was asked, I don't
>>> quite see how this would have solved your problem.  3 of the IAOC members
>>> had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that
>>> the information on the website was 100% accurate.
>>>
>>>> And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train
>>>> station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you:
>>>> "Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not
>>>> been updated for ages !".
>>>
>>> This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways
>>> recommend to check their websites to plan a trip.   And again, I have
>>> yet to come across a case where the website different from the
>>> intention of the railway company to run a train.
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> --
>>> Henk Uijterwaal   Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
>>> RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
>>> P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
>>> 1001 EB Amsterdam  1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
>>> The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746
>>> --
>>>
>>> I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician.
>>> ___
>>> Ietf mailing list
>>> Ietf@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> **
>> The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org
>> 
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Hi Olaf,

What I'm saying is that this has been done wrong, and probably the only way
to avoid it is to:

1) Not accepting a venue which is not "directly" connected (and CONFIRMED by
the secretariat) by an international airport, served by at least 3 different
alliances (example, OneWorld, Star, Skyteam). It will be acceptable a train
or bus from the airport to the venue/hotels, let's say less than one hour
trip, AND with no "line" changes.

Or

2) If the venue don't met that requirement, then the secretariat should take
the responsibility to double check that the different recommended
transportation suggestions are valid and perform as announced by the
provider (example, the railway company).

Maastricht didn't met any of both choices.

I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing
the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as
venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should
include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is
not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing
an alternative path, of course, that's a different history.

I don't agree either that the secretariat should not make a minimum
supervision of the host provided info. I know it is impossible not being
local to monitor all, but in a case where we don't have an international
airport, the secretariat should make sure that the trains have the right
information, definitively !

Regards,
Jordi




> From: Olaf Kolkman 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:06:14 +0200
> To: 
> Cc: 
> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re:  Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,
> Sat 07:09
> 
> 
> On Aug 26, 2010, at 3:07 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm forwarding this message to the general IETF mailing list, because I
>> think we need a good discussion on this and the confirmation from the
>> secretariat/IAOC that this work will be done CORRECTLY NEXT TIME.
>> 
>> The fact is that if we don't make sure that a venue has good connections
>> then should not be candidate to be an IETF venue.
>> 
>> I'm not referring to plane vs train. I'm fine with train if the information
>> provided is accurate. Some times, for people in Europe, train can be more
>> convenient than planes, but this is only true if the train system is
>> reliable in general (of course, a strike, crash or anything like that is
>> something that we can't predict/avoid).
>> 
>> Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was
>> totally FALSE.
>> 
>> This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a
>> venue.
>> 
>> I hope that we learn the lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> Jordi,
> 
> You are suggesting that the secretariat or the IAOC does research into the
> correctness of information that is linked from the host site, correct?
> 
> If so: The host site is _not_ the responsibility of the IAOC or the
> secretariat, it is the responsibility of the host. And although I would agree
> that there should be some expectation that the host does its best to provide
> accurate venue information one cannot expect the host to actually _test_
> whether sites that (in their eyes) are supposed to give authoritative
> information are actually correct.
> 
> Suppose that this link was not provided by the host.
> 
> You would probably have googled for "Maastricht Brussels Train"? That query
> provides me with the mentioned site as first hit.  Would you have complained
> to google that the first hit for that query contained false information?
> 
> But to the underlying point: I think the responsibility of the IAOC and
> secretariat stops with providing accurate hotel and venue location
> information. How to get from home to the venue is _your own_ responsibility by
> which you might be aided through links provided by the hosts and hints and
> tips from your colleagues on the various IETF lists. I would agree that it is
> fair to expect that folk providing those hints and tips do so diligently but
> that is not the responsibility of the IAOC or Secretariat.
> 
> 
> On purely personal title,
> 
> --Olaf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Olaf M. KolkmanNLnet Labs
>Science Park 140,
> http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/   1098 XG Amsterdam
> 
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Carsten Bormann]

OK Jordi, you fell victim to a marketing site.
I've got some news for you: Not every site on the Web has accurate information.

Let me explain how that works.  Something new comes along (say, a new train 
service) and marketing material (a web site) is generated.  Some budget is set 
aside.  The web site looks nice and flashy and correctly describes the state at 
the time the budget was there.

The service turns out to be less successful than anticipated.  Some changes are 
made.  The website is not updated (out of lack of budget; out of shame; I don't 
know).  The train personnel even knows that but probably thought: not a big 
problem, that's just a marketing site.  Those who really need to know will go 
to the operator.

An IETF analogy would be IPv6 and security: When IPv6 was first marketed, its 
"mandatory security" was an important (the only at the time) selling point.  
Lots of marketing of this feature, which made it turn into the incorrect 
marketing statement "IPv6 more secure".  IPv6 turns out to be less successful 
than planned and a lot of that security is never deployed.  Still, after more 
than 10 years and a lot of IPv4 IPsec deploument, most IPv6 marketing sites 
sell "IPv6 more secure".  This kind outdated information is hard to get rid of. 
 Not a problem, because those who really need to know will talk to experts.

Should the host site have vetted the information on the marketing site before 
linking to it?  Probably.  On the other hand, the site does contain useful 
information.  Still, it is quite obvious that this is not an operator site so 
nobody in their right mind would be relying on the letter of it for current 
information.

The ugly part of this conversation is that you map this little failure of the 
hosts and then your big failure to properly vet information on the web to a 
failure of the site selection process or the IAOC.  No, that's not it.

General recommendation on the latter point: less drama, please.

Gruesse, Carsten

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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Scott Brim]

On 08/28/2010 03:27 EDT, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> Hi Olaf,
> 
> What I'm saying is that this has been done wrong, and probably the only way
> to avoid it is to:
> 
> 1) Not accepting a venue which is not "directly" connected (and CONFIRMED by
> the secretariat) by an international airport, served by at least 3 different
> alliances (example, OneWorld, Star, Skyteam). It will be acceptable a train
> or bus from the airport to the venue/hotels, let's say less than one hour
> trip, AND with no "line" changes.

What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed
by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting
facilities.

swb
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Mary Barnes]

The savings really depends upon the city.  After Maastricht, I went to
Paris and the hotel for me there was 25 Euros a nite less than in
Maastricht and I would have also saved several hundred dollars in
airfare as well as alot of time in transit.  So, while it is possible
that IETF may have to pay more for meeting facilities,  I contend that
the net expenses for the average participant would be fairly close,
even if the meeting fee were higher.

Certainly, my meal expenses overall would be higher in larger and
easier to reach cities, but that's more because I could actually find
more to eat than that the overall costs are significantly higher.

Mary.


>
> What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed
> by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting
> facilities.
>
> swb
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Mary Barnes]

Fred,

The fuss is all about the fact that the trains between Hiroshima or a
flight leg from Frankfurt to Prague, for example can't be compared to
the train experience to/from Maastricht in terms of convenience in
scheduling, ease in purchasing ticketss, quality of transport and
comfort (in my experience).  Information about the trains to Hiroshima
was provided well ahead of time and was extremely accurate and
informative (down to the detail of not changing at the central Tokyo
station).  The trains to Hiroshima were far superior in quality and
comfort than those to Maastricht.  The train I took to Maastricht was
decrepit - two cars that were filthy, with the filthiest restroom I
have EVER seen in my entire life and I've seen alot having traveled in
a station wagon all around the US as a child.  And, unfortunately, I
had no choice but to use the facilities on the train since the public
restroom at the lovely Liege station was closed at 10pm at nite. I
barely caught the last train to Maastricht due to flight delays and I
got very lucky in that there was a cab dropping someone at the train
station in Maastricht when I arrived, otherwise I would have had to
walk to my hotel as the train station was entirely shutdown when I
arrived.

So, AT MOST, I would consider Maastricht a Tertiary location as I
would the venue in Dublin and as I would a conference center located
15 minutes from my house despite it being 15 minutes from the 3rd
busiest international airport in the world because there are no
restaurants nearby and folks that stayed at other hotels would need a
car to get there.

In my opinion Hiroshima was a very satisfactory venue - the trains
were clean, easy to use and the meeting venue was located in a city
center (near all the hotels) with plenty of nearby choices for finding
food.  These are all very, very basic and simple criteria to meet,
unfortunately, Maastricht did not satisfy any of them.

Regards.
Mary.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Fred Baker  wrote:

>
> Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally "secondary" to me. I take a 
> commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something else 
> (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than flying), and 
> I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's pretty 
> normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about.
>
> I've attached the www.hipmunk.com report on "how to get from Barcelona to 
> Beijing".
>
> If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being secondary, do 
> you really want to go there?
>
>> Maastricht didn't met any of both choices.
>>
>> I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing
>> the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as
>> venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should
>> include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is
>> not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing
>> an alternative path, of course, that's a different history.
>
> I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by your 
> analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we had to 
> fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint there, to 
> be honest, is that I used Swisscom in the Crowne Plaza and several other 
> hotels while in Europe, and with the exception of the NH Airport Brussels, 
> they all had loss rates on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I 
> was measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city.
>
>
>
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

That's it !

Regards,
Jordi




> From: Mary Barnes 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:11:47 -0500
> To: Fred Baker 
> Cc: , IETF Discussion 
> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,
> Sat 07:09
> 
> Fred,
> 
> The fuss is all about the fact that the trains between Hiroshima or a
> flight leg from Frankfurt to Prague, for example can't be compared to
> the train experience to/from Maastricht in terms of convenience in
> scheduling, ease in purchasing ticketss, quality of transport and
> comfort (in my experience).  Information about the trains to Hiroshima
> was provided well ahead of time and was extremely accurate and
> informative (down to the detail of not changing at the central Tokyo
> station).  The trains to Hiroshima were far superior in quality and
> comfort than those to Maastricht.  The train I took to Maastricht was
> decrepit - two cars that were filthy, with the filthiest restroom I
> have EVER seen in my entire life and I've seen alot having traveled in
> a station wagon all around the US as a child.  And, unfortunately, I
> had no choice but to use the facilities on the train since the public
> restroom at the lovely Liege station was closed at 10pm at nite. I
> barely caught the last train to Maastricht due to flight delays and I
> got very lucky in that there was a cab dropping someone at the train
> station in Maastricht when I arrived, otherwise I would have had to
> walk to my hotel as the train station was entirely shutdown when I
> arrived.
> 
> So, AT MOST, I would consider Maastricht a Tertiary location as I
> would the venue in Dublin and as I would a conference center located
> 15 minutes from my house despite it being 15 minutes from the 3rd
> busiest international airport in the world because there are no
> restaurants nearby and folks that stayed at other hotels would need a
> car to get there.
> 
> In my opinion Hiroshima was a very satisfactory venue - the trains
> were clean, easy to use and the meeting venue was located in a city
> center (near all the hotels) with plenty of nearby choices for finding
> food.  These are all very, very basic and simple criteria to meet,
> unfortunately, Maastricht did not satisfy any of them.
> 
> Regards.
> Mary.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Fred Baker  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally "secondary" to me. I take a
>> commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something else
>> (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than flying), and
>> I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's pretty
>> normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about.
>> 
>> I've attached the www.hipmunk.com report on "how to get from Barcelona to
>> Beijing".
>> 
>> If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being secondary, do
>> you really want to go there?
>> 
>>> Maastricht didn't met any of both choices.
>>> 
>>> I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing
>>> the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as
>>> venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should
>>> include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is
>>> not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing
>>> an alternative path, of course, that's a different history.
>> 
>> I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by your
>> analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we had to
>> fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint there, to
>> be honest, is that I used Swisscom in the Crowne Plaza and several other
>> hotels while in Europe, and with the exception of the NH Airport Brussels,
>> they all had loss rates on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I
>> was measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>> 
>> 



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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Scott Brim [mailto://scott.b...@gmail.com] writes:

> On 08/28/2010 03:27 EDT, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> > Hi Olaf,
> >
> > What I'm saying is that this has been done wrong, and probably the
> only way
> > to avoid it is to:
> >
> > 1) Not accepting a venue which is not "directly" connected (and
> CONFIRMED by
> > the secretariat) by an international airport, served by at least 3
> different
> > alliances (example, OneWorld, Star, Skyteam). It will be acceptable a
> train
> > or bus from the airport to the venue/hotels, let's say less than one
> hour
> > trip, AND with no "line" changes.
> 
> What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed
> by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting
> facilities.

Speaking of which, I hope to be the first to note that paying $192 for a
room in Beijing in November is highway robbery...

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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Sounds to me as if you both just need a good travel agent (& possibly a
little anti-whining therapy ;-).

Hope this helps.

 ~gwz


> -Original Message-
> From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 3:57 AM
> To: IETF Discussion
> Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-
> Aero, Sat 07:09
> 
> That's it !
> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Mary Barnes 
> > Reply-To: 
> > Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:11:47 -0500
> > To: Fred Baker 
> > Cc: , IETF Discussion 
> > Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-
> Aero,
> > Sat 07:09
> >
> > Fred,
> >
> > The fuss is all about the fact that the trains between Hiroshima or a
> > flight leg from Frankfurt to Prague, for example can't be compared to
> > the train experience to/from Maastricht in terms of convenience in
> > scheduling, ease in purchasing ticketss, quality of transport and
> > comfort (in my experience).  Information about the trains to Hiroshima
> > was provided well ahead of time and was extremely accurate and
> > informative (down to the detail of not changing at the central Tokyo
> > station).  The trains to Hiroshima were far superior in quality and
> > comfort than those to Maastricht.  The train I took to Maastricht was
> > decrepit - two cars that were filthy, with the filthiest restroom I
> > have EVER seen in my entire life and I've seen alot having traveled in
> > a station wagon all around the US as a child.  And, unfortunately, I
> > had no choice but to use the facilities on the train since the public
> > restroom at the lovely Liege station was closed at 10pm at nite. I
> > barely caught the last train to Maastricht due to flight delays and I
> > got very lucky in that there was a cab dropping someone at the train
> > station in Maastricht when I arrived, otherwise I would have had to
> > walk to my hotel as the train station was entirely shutdown when I
> > arrived.
> >
> > So, AT MOST, I would consider Maastricht a Tertiary location as I
> > would the venue in Dublin and as I would a conference center located
> > 15 minutes from my house despite it being 15 minutes from the 3rd
> > busiest international airport in the world because there are no
> > restaurants nearby and folks that stayed at other hotels would need a
> > car to get there.
> >
> > In my opinion Hiroshima was a very satisfactory venue - the trains
> > were clean, easy to use and the meeting venue was located in a city
> > center (near all the hotels) with plenty of nearby choices for finding
> > food.  These are all very, very basic and simple criteria to meet,
> > unfortunately, Maastricht did not satisfy any of them.
> >
> > Regards.
> > Mary.
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Fred Baker  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally "secondary" to me. I
> take a
> >> commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something
> else
> >> (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than
> flying), and
> >> I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's
> pretty
> >> normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about.
> >>
> >> I've attached the www.hipmunk.com report on "how to get from
> Barcelona to
> >> Beijing".
> >>
> >> If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being
> secondary, do
> >> you really want to go there?
> >>
> >>> Maastricht didn't met any of both choices.
> >>>
> >>> I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by
> providing
> >>> the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may
> choose as
> >>> venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that
> should
> >>> include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue
> (especially if is
> >>> not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of
> choosing
> >>> an alternative path, of course, that's a different history.
> >>
> >> I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by
> your
> >> analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we
> had to
> >> fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint
> there, to
> >> be honest, i

Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Yoav Nir]

On Aug 29, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:

>> What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed
>> by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting
>> facilities.
> 
> Speaking of which, I hope to be the first to note that paying $192 for a
> room in Beijing in November is highway robbery...

What Glen said.  Also, the secondary hotel is not much better at $147.  The 15% 
service charge increase these to $220 and $169 respectively, which is way 
beyond the budget my company gives me for all locations in the world besides 
NYC.

If this was some place in the US, I could easily find a cheap hotel chain 
nearby (like I did in Anaheim). In Europe, it's a little more difficult, but 
still doable (thanks, Google Earth). In China, I have no idea where to even 
look. Sure, I can find a list of cheap hotels in Beijing, but I have no idea 
where they are in relation to the meeting venue, or whether the staff would 
speak English. The warning to have your destination written down in Chinese, 
because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence either.

For most business meetings, all this doesn't matter. You either have a host 
that helps you out, or your Chinese sales office helps you out. For an IETF 
meeting, we don't really have either of these.
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Spencer Dawkins]

If this was some place in the US, I could easily find a cheap hotel chain 
nearby (like I did in Anaheim). In Europe, it's a little more difficult, 
but still doable (thanks, Google Earth). In China, I have no idea where to 
even look. Sure, I can find a list of cheap hotels in Beijing, but I have 
no idea where they are in relation to the meeting venue, or whether the 
staff would speak English. The warning to have your destination written 
down in Chinese, because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't 
inspire confidence either.


For most business meetings, all this doesn't matter. You either have a 
host that helps you out, or your Chinese sales office helps you out. For 
an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these.


Just as a data point, I was in Beijing for the PPSP workshop at the 
beginning of the summer, and was able to come up with google maps to/from my 
hotel, which was not the conference hotel, with enough Chinese that I could 
hand the maps to a cab driver.


I'm not a native, but my impression is that one of the things you're paying 
for at high-end hotels in China is staff that speaks English - but I've 
never stayed at a hotel in China where no one spoke English; it might be 
that just one or two people who spoke English, and everyone else would go 
fetch someone when I needed to answer a question.


The only real point of confusion for me was that I didn't know what terminal 
I was DEPARTING from, when exiting China. Both Star Alliance and OneWorld 
fly out of the massive Terminal 3 (read more about this at 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_airport), but I didn't know that, and 
it took a little while at the hotel to figure out what to tell the cab 
driver.


I put the address given at the IETF website ("29 Zizhuyuan Road Beijing 
100089 China") into Google Maps, and then zoomed out - looks like we're in 
Haidian District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidian_District, "the 
university district"). If you include the district in your searches for 
hotels, that will at least keep you from being at the other end of 
Beijing...


Spencer 


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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Ole Jacobsen]

You said:

"For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these."

What? IETF 79 is hosted by Tsinghua University, CERNET and CNNIC. The 
website is still work in progress, but I would be very surprised if
they won't iinclude additional hotel info etc, if they don't, well
then we can certainly ask them too.

Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in 
Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including
beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle.

Sounding a little better?

Ole


Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Yoav Nir]

On Aug 29, 2010, at 9:32 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

> 
> You said:
> 
> "For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these."
> 
> What? IETF 79 is hosted by Tsinghua University, CERNET and CNNIC. The 
> website is still work in progress, but I would be very surprised if
> they won't iinclude additional hotel info etc, if they don't, well
> then we can certainly ask them too.

Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and special 
rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of hotels with 
special rates, so a lot were listed. I don't remember additional hotels being 
listed for Anaheim, Dublin or Chicago.

In all those locations this was not a problem, but I don't know how to spot a 
fleabag hotel in China. I believe I can do this in the US or Europe. 

> 
> Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in 
> Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including
> beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle.
> 
> Sounding a little better?

Sounds great, but food and hotels are two separate expense report items, each 
with its own caps.


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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Ole Jacobsen]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote:
> 
> Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and 
> special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of 
> hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed.

Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better 
rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one.

> 
> In all those locations this was not a problem, but I don't know how 
> to spot a fleabag hotel in China. I believe I can do this in the US 
> or Europe.

Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple
of weeks and see what the host comes up with?

For the record, I tried to "hire" (volunteer) a local expert who 
has lived there for 18 years and speaks fluent Mandarin and English, 
but he was too busy with his day job, I am still hoping someone else 
will step up to the plate, but in any case, I am confident the host 
will help. Plus there are lots of people on this list who can assist, 
one of the reasons we are going to China is the increasing 
participation from China in the IETF.

James Seng, how do you read?


> 
> Sounds great, but food and hotels are two separate expense report 
> items, each with its own caps.
> 
> 

Fair enough, but total cost is surely a factor for approval, no?

I know, I won't call you Shirley again :-)

Ole
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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Ole Jacobsen [mailto:o...@cisco.com] writes:

 

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote:

> >

> > Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and

> > special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of

> > hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed.

> 

> Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better

> rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one.

 

Perhaps not (there will always be a Motel 6 or some such down the road), but
that's not the question & definitely not the problem.  The question is why,
when the IETF has essentially promised to fill the Shangri-La Beijing for
the week, is it possible to book a room on the Shangri-La Web site right now
for the entire week of the meeting at less than the IETF rate?  The question
is why I was able to book a room @ the Hiroshima hotel for less than half
the IETF rate (admittedly w/o breakfast; was the "free" breakfast worth
~$80/day?).  The problem is that, eventually, the IETF will no longer be
able to fill the conference hotel because of the outrageous rates
"negotiated".  IEEE 802 has already run into this and has had to resort to
offering a meeting fee discount to those who spend at least one night in the
conference hotel.  The IEEE got into that position, I'm told, thanks to the
corruption of a meeting scheduler who locked them into a particular hotel
chain for many years in advance in return for valuable kickbacks.  What is
the IETF excuse?

 

> 

> >

> > In all those locations this was not a problem, but I don't know how

> > to spot a fleabag hotel in China. I believe I can do this in the US

> > or Europe.

> 

> Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple

> of weeks and see what the host comes up with?

 

Again, that's not the problem: in about an hour I was able to come up with
half a dozen 4*+ hotels as close or closer to the Shangri-La than the
official overflow hotel @ a maximum rate of $72/night (for a new, deluxe 2
bdrm apartment).  Why should I have to?  Again, we're basically promising to
fill the hotel for a week in November; that's worth money to the hotel but
we don't seem to be seeing any of it.  I've even been told that the IETF has
recently been paying for the use of meeting rooms @ the conference hotel.
Why?

 

.

 

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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Yoav Nir]

On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:

> > Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple
> > of weeks and see what the host comes up with?
>  
> Again, that’s not the problem: in about an hour I was able to come up with 
> half a dozen 4*+ hotels as close or closer to the Shangri-La than the 
> official overflow hotel @ a maximum rate of $72/night (for a new, deluxe 2 
> bdrm apartment).  

Please share.

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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Yoav Nir [mailto:y...@checkpoint.com] writes:

> On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:
> 
> > > Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple
> > > of weeks and see what the host comes up with?
> >
> > Again, that's not the problem: in about an hour I was able to come up
> with half a dozen 4*+ hotels as close or closer to the Shangri-La than
> the official overflow hotel @ a maximum rate of $72/night (for a new,
> deluxe 2 bdrm apartment).
> 
> Please share.

Happy to do so, once my own reservation is confirmed ;-).  Hint: you can use
the combination of asiarooms.com for location & agoda.com for price... 


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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Yoav Nir]

On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:

Ole Jacobsen [mailto:o...@cisco.com] writes:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote:
> >
> > Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and
> > special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of
> > hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed.
>
> Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better
> rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one.

Perhaps not (there will always be a Motel 6 or some such down the road), but 
that’s not the question & definitely not the problem.  The question is why, 
when the IETF has essentially promised to fill the Shangri-La Beijing for the 
week, is it possible to book a room on the Shangri-La Web site right now for 
the entire week of the meeting at less than the IETF rate?

Really?  I have just tried that, and got the same 1300 RMB with or without the 
promotion code.

I can get cheaper rates for the week before or the week after, but entering 
7th-12th of November gives me just the 1300 RMB rate.

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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Yoav Nir [mailto:y...@checkpoint.com]  writes:

 

On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:





Ole Jacobsen [mailto:o...@cisco.com] writes:

 

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote:

> >

> > Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and

> > special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of

> > hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed.

> 

> Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better

> rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one.

 

Perhaps not (there will always be a Motel 6 or some such down the road), but
that's not the question & definitely not the problem.  The question is why,
when the IETF has essentially promised to fill the Shangri-La Beijing for
the week, is it possible to book a room on the Shangri-La Web site right now
for the entire week of the meeting at less than the IETF rate?  

 

Really?  I have just tried that, and got the same 1300 RMB with or without
the promotion code.

 

Nevertheless, does it not put the lie to the idea that the IETF is getting a
deal (except maybe a bad one)?

 

I can get cheaper rates for the week before or the week after, but entering
7th-12th of November gives me just the 1300 RMB rate.

 

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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Henk Uijterwaal]

On 29/08/2010 06:22, Yoav Nir wrote:
>  The warning to have your destination written down in Chinese,
> because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence
> either.

I've never been to Beijing myself but friends who have told me that this
worked perfect for them: the taxidriver understood where they wanted
to go and they got there in more or less a straight line.

> For most business meetings, all this doesn't matter. You either have a host
> that helps you out, or your Chinese sales office helps you out. For an IETF
> meeting, we don't really have either of these. 

The host and the IETF do help: we provide 2 hotels and instructions on how
to get there.

The IETF (IAOC, local host, ...) is not a travel agent though, if you
have requirements outside what is provided, I suggest that you contact
a travel agent.

Henk

-- 
--
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RIPE Network Coordination Centre  http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku
P.O.Box 10096  Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Fernando Gont]

Yoav Nir wrote:

> If this was some place in the US, I could easily find a cheap hotel
> chain nearby (like I did in Anaheim). In Europe, it's a little more
> difficult, but still doable (thanks, Google Earth). In China, I have
> no idea where to even look. 

There are usual plenty of web sites for hostels, hotels, and the like.
They usually provide a map that indicates where exactly the hotel is.

If possible, you print the map in advance, and that helps quite a bit.

At Hiroshima a couple of us got on a cab, and it was impossible for us
to understand each other with the taxi driver. We asked him to stop, we
got of the cab, and drew with the pen on our map a circle to show him
where we wonted to go. -- No big deal.

At the airport (Tokyo) it was even funnier... I don't recall what I was
looking for, but we couldn't understand each other. However, a bit of
sign language and their patience and politeness were enough.

IMO, that's part of the fun of traveling...


> Sure, I can find a list of cheap hotels
> in Beijing, but I have no idea where they are in relation to the
> meeting venue, or whether the staff would speak English. 

At times I have done this: get there a day earlier or so, and you do all
your logistics. Find out how far if it's possible to walk from your
hotel to the meeting venue, find some place that's affordable to eat, etc.


> The warning
> to have your destination written down in Chinese, because the taxi
> drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence either.

Why would you expect them to speak English? They are Chinese, and live
in China... hence they speak Chinese. :-)- I'd argue that in most of
Latin-America taxi drivers won't speak English, either.

Writing down whatever you want to communicate when you travel to a
country where you don't speak their language is usually the safe way to go.

Ah, and of course you also take some cash with you, and if possible, get
some Chinese currency before you actually get to China.

Having some idea about how much they should charge you for e.g. a taxi
from the airport to the center of the city is usually valuable
information, too. It wouldn't be surprised if the taxi driver tried to
charge you more than he should if he realized you have no idea of how
much things cost there (this could easily happen here in Argentina).

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: ferna...@gont.com.ar || fg...@acm.org
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Randall Gellens]

At 11:32 PM -0700 8/28/10, Ole Jacobsen wrote:


 Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in
 Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including
 beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle.


Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even anywhere 
in Beijing?


I don't care about beer, but breathing would be nice.  Being able to 
join people for meals might be nice, too, but I guess that will have 
to wait for a venue that isn't China or Prague.


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only
-- Randomly selected tag: ---
A logician saves the life of a space alien and is rewarded with
an offer to answer any question.  After a thought he asks: What
is the best question to ask and the correct answer to it?  After
a brief panic the alien consults her computer and says: The best
question to ask is the one you just did and the correct answer
to it is the one I gave.
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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Randall Gellens [mailto://ra...@qualcomm.com] writes:

> At 11:32 PM -0700 8/28/10, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> 
> >  Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in
> >  Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including
> >  beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle.
> 
> Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even anywhere
> in Beijing?

Don't worry: the Disneyfication of the planet continues apace & the Chinese,
being good capitalists, have also discovered the profit advantages in
controlling human behavior as opposed to actual air quality.  I'm sure that
you will be able to find many places to soak up your preferred mixture of
toxic pollutants without any offensive additions.

...


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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Randall Gellens]

At 10:06 AM +0700 8/30/10, Glen Zorn wrote:


  > Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even anywhere

 in Beijing?


 Don't worry: the Disneyfication of the planet continues apace & the Chinese,
 being good capitalists, have also discovered the profit advantages in
 controlling human behavior as opposed to actual air quality.  I'm sure that
 you will be able to find many places to soak up your preferred mixture of
 toxic pollutants without any offensive additions.


Of course different people see things differently, but I find it hard 
to see how you can compare not being forced against one's will to 
smoke to Disney's bland entertainment.  Personally, I have no 
interest in controlling anyone's behavior, *except* that I prefer 
that someone else's choice not drag me into it.  If you want to 
drink, shoot heroin, skydive, whatever, I don't care at all unless 
you try to force me to do the same.  When someone smokes in public, 
every else is forced to smoke as well.  If you want to inject 
nicotine during an IETF session or at dinner, I could not care less. 
Just don't force me to as well.  As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver 
Wendell Holmes wrote, "The right to swing my fist ends where the 
other man's nose begins."


I really cannot figure out what what you are saying about the 
Chinese.  I am not aware of them controlling smoking in public, so I 
assume you're talking about something else, but what?  Can you please 
clarify?


--
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-- Randomly selected tag: ---
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RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Glen Zorn]

Randall Gellens [mailto:ra...@qualcomm.com] writes:

> At 10:06 AM +0700 8/30/10, Glen Zorn wrote:
> 
> >   > Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even
> anywhere
> >>  in Beijing?
> >
> >  Don't worry: the Disneyfication of the planet continues apace & the
> Chinese,
> >  being good capitalists, have also discovered the profit advantages in
> >  controlling human behavior as opposed to actual air quality.  I'm
> sure that
> >  you will be able to find many places to soak up your preferred
> mixture of
> >  toxic pollutants without any offensive additions.
> 
> Of course different people see things differently, but I find it hard
> to see how you can compare not being forced against one's will to
> smoke to Disney's bland entertainment.  

A little less hyperbole would go a long way toward making this conversation
productive: nobody is forcing you against your will to do anything, let
alone smoke.  Everybody makes choices every day, always choosing those
things they perceive as preferable (if possible).  Maybe Qualcomm is
actually forcing you against your will to go and breathe the abysmal air in
Beijing for a week but I doubt it: they would probably be happy to save the
expense & you could always resign.  Even if there were no non-smoking
restaurants anywhere in China you would have a number of options for feeding
yourself for the week.  If, in that situation, you were to enter a
restaurant I doubt strongly that it would be because you were in chains with
a gun to your head; rather, it would be because you found it preferable to
the alternatives.  

> Personally, I have no
> interest in controlling anyone's behavior, *except* that I prefer
> that someone else's choice not drag me into it.  

A one-man spaceship sounds like the only answer, then, since other people's
choices 'drag you into it' virtually constantly.

> If you want to
> drink, shoot heroin, skydive, whatever, I don't care at all unless
> you try to force me to do the same.  When someone smokes in public,
> every else is forced to smoke as well.  

Nonsense: there is always, at least, the option to move away.  

> If you want to inject
> nicotine during an IETF session or at dinner, I could not care less.
> Just don't force me to as well.  

I can only assume that you never actually been forced to do anything; I
cannot otherwise explain your cavalier use of the word.

> As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver
> Wendell Holmes wrote, "The right to swing my fist ends where the
> other man's nose begins."

Again, refraining from hyperbole would be helpful.  Only in the most fevered
imagination could a person smoking 25 feet away be equated with a personal,
physical attack.

> 
> I really cannot figure out what what you are saying about the
> Chinese.  I am not aware of them controlling smoking in public, so I
> assume you're talking about something else, but what?  Can you please
> clarify?

Sorry for the lack of clarity: I really thought that my meaning was obvious.
Anyway, especially since they "cleaned up" the town in the run-up to the
Olympics there are (in my experience) lots of non-smoking restaurants in
Beijing.  For example, all of the restaurants in the Shangri-La have
non-smoking sections.  Here is a link to a non-smoking (& cheap) 4* hotel
closer than the Nikko:
http://www.agoda.com/asia/china/beijing/jiu_zhou_commercial_hotel.html. 

...


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Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09

[Randall Gellens]

At 12:58 AM -0700 8/28/10, Fred Baker wrote:

 Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally "secondary" to me. 
I take a commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do 
something else (flight or train, and the train's a lot more 
comfortable than flying), and I'm there. If I'm on three flights or 
two and a train, to me that's pretty normal. Leaves me wondering 
what the fuss is about.


I'm glad it was so easy for you to get to Maastricht and Hiroshima. 
I know that a number of people had equally easy access.  However, 
others had much more difficult journeys, involving multiple 
trains/taxis, and confusing and conflicting information.



 If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being 
secondary, do you really want to go there?


Maastricht is not well-connected to international airports in the summer.

 I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by 
your analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, 
although we had to fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. 
My only complaint there, to be honest, is that I used Swisscom in 
the Crowne Plaza and several other hotels while in Europe, and with 
the exception of the NH Airport Brussels, they all had loss rates 
on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I was 
measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city.


In Hiroshima, we met in a large hotel in a dense area.  In 
Maastricht, there was only one hotel close to where we met, and the 
Internet access required a Herculean effort that I don't think we 
have a right to demand.  (It was difficult to find smoke-free food in 
Hiroshima, except for the nearby department store's food court, but I 
can live with that.)


So, I'd say both Maastricht and Hiroshima were hard to get to, and 
Maastricht additionally had less good facilities.


--
Randall Gellens
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