Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
On Tuesday, March 27, 2007 02:42:19 PM -0700 Andy Bierman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There are so many Process Wonks in the IETF who feel it is their sworn duty to yell "State your name please!" I guess I am one of those process wonks. In the PCN meeting last week, I was taking notes, a feed-in to what became the minutes. That involves capturing statements made and who made them. I know a lot of us, but I don't know all of us. Speakers who could not be bothered to state their name made my job hard, just as much as people who couldn't be bothered to wait their turn or use the mike. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
On Tuesday, March 27, 2007 02:42:19 PM -0700 Andy Bierman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There are so many Process Wonks in the IETF who feel it is their sworn duty to yell "State your name please!" I think it's unfair to call people who do that "process wonks" or any other derogatory term. Most of them are people who want to know who is speaking. Some of them are people who assume the rest of the room want to know who is speaking, probably don't, and probably don't feel comfortable speaking up and saying so. that said... I don't think we need to introduce expensive technology into the mix. I very much agree with this. -- Jeff ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Schliesser, Benson wrote: Eric- It sounds like your argument is: "We're too incompetent to say our names at the mic, so we're probably too incompetent to use a RFID system." Did I get that right? This sounds like a Rube Goldberg joke, not a serious thread. Could we possibly find a more over-engineered solution to such an unimportant problem? I doubt it. There are so many Process Wonks in the IETF who feel it is their sworn duty to yell "State your name please!" every time somebody steps to the mike, that I don't think we need to introduce expensive technology into the mix. How much are the IETF meeting fees going to go up to pay for RFID name badges anyway? While I'm certainly not going to defend the competence of every IETF participant, I don't find much merit in that argument. In my (unscientific) first-hand experiences, it seems that most people do manage to wear their nametags at the meeting. And many of the names on those tags are of cultural origins other than my own, i.e. from a non-English speaking country. If I could actually see the name of the person speaking, it seems like a great improvement over hearing a name which is unintelligible to my ears or hearing no name at all. And if somebody forgets their RFID-badge, then I'm no worse off than I am today. In other words, I think we could come up with a system that worked well enough to be a net improvement over our current operational model. On the other hand, I am amused by your idea of scanning the streets for RFID responses that look like IETF-badges. Then my robot army could track down and kill all IETF participants whom oppose my plans to take over the Internet! Or maybe I could just use them for some fun practical jokes instead... Cheers, -Benson Andy ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Steven M. Bellovin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > "Schliesser, Benson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On the other hand, I am amused by your idea of scanning the streets > > for RFID responses that look like IETF-badges. Then my robot army > > could track down and kill all IETF participants whom oppose my plans > > to take over the Internet! Or maybe I could just use them for some > > fun practical jokes instead... > > > > RFIDs carry serious privacy risks, and IETFers *do* (and will) forget > to take them off (and in this case, wrap them in aluminum foil or some > such). To give just one example, does everyone in the IETF want > everyone else to have the potential to know who's in which > hotel rooms? But wouldn't it be fun if every time an IESG member got into the elevator it deposited him/her on the roof? Or if wind-up Bert dolls followed each member of the IAB? More seriously speaking, this system doesn't have to be based on RFID. If it's not realistic to secure an RFID-based system then perhaps another format would be more appropriate. Being only marginally aware of RFID technologies, I may be making poor assumptions. Such as that a requirement of very-near proximity could be enforced, and perhaps even some form of rudimentary authentication can be used between the RFID badges and readers, etc. Is this unrealistic? If so, would something like a barcode system be viable? Or perhaps a simple video camera displaying the speaker's head and badge? (with double-sided badges, perhaps) The allure of RFID is that it could be more automated. I can imagine hearing at future meetings, "scan your barcode" instead of "state your name". Are there other options? Cheers, -Benson ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:27:29 -0500 "Schliesser, Benson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Eric- > > It sounds like your argument is: "We're too incompetent to say our > names at the mic, so we're probably too incompetent to use a RFID > system." Did I get that right? > > While I'm certainly not going to defend the competence of every IETF > participant, I don't find much merit in that argument. In my > (unscientific) first-hand experiences, it seems that most people do > manage to wear their nametags at the meeting. And many of the names on > those tags are of cultural origins other than my own, i.e. from a > non-English speaking country. If I could actually see the name of the > person speaking, it seems like a great improvement over hearing a name > which is unintelligible to my ears or hearing no name at all. And if > somebody forgets their RFID-badge, then I'm no worse off than I am > today. I think his point was more what you cite below: > > In other words, I think we could come up with a system that worked > well enough to be a net improvement over our current operational > model. > On the other hand, I am amused by your idea of scanning the streets > for RFID responses that look like IETF-badges. Then my robot army > could track down and kill all IETF participants whom oppose my plans > to take over the Internet! Or maybe I could just use them for some > fun practical jokes instead... > RFIDs carry serious privacy risks, and IETFers *do* (and will) forget to take them off (and in this case, wrap them in aluminum foil or some such). To give just one example, does everyone in the IETF want everyone else to have the potential to know who's in which hotel rooms? --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Eric-
It sounds like your argument is: "We're too incompetent to say our names
at the mic, so we're probably too incompetent to use a RFID system."
Did I get that right?
While I'm certainly not going to defend the competence of every IETF
participant, I don't find much merit in that argument. In my
(unscientific) first-hand experiences, it seems that most people do
manage to wear their nametags at the meeting. And many of the names on
those tags are of cultural origins other than my own, i.e. from a
non-English speaking country. If I could actually see the name of the
person speaking, it seems like a great improvement over hearing a name
which is unintelligible to my ears or hearing no name at all. And if
somebody forgets their RFID-badge, then I'm no worse off than I am
today.
In other words, I think we could come up with a system that worked well
enough to be a net improvement over our current operational model.
On the other hand, I am amused by your idea of scanning the streets for
RFID responses that look like IETF-badges. Then my robot army could
track down and kill all IETF participants whom oppose my plans to take
over the Internet! Or maybe I could just use them for some fun practical
jokes instead...
Cheers,
-Benson
From: Eric Gray (LO/EUS) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:56 PM
To: Andrew G. Malis
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Andy,
The problem is that we are a perpetually forgetful crowd. In
particular, we
tend to forget to take our badges off when we wander around
town. Hence,
it is likely that more people will be able to tell where we are
than those who
we intend to know where we are.
Kind of goes with the tendency to forget to identify
yourself at the mike.
So, we get a nice RFID protective wallet and - remembering
how absent
minded we are - we keep our name tags (with all of our other
RFID badges,
and passes) in that protective wallet.
As a result, unless you need to get it out to get into a
room, it will likely
be inside that protective wallet most of the week. On the plus
side, that
means I won't be the only one who forgets to put my name tag on.
On the
negative side, an RFID name tag - especially one that is in a
protective
wallet - is not particularly human readable. At least - if we
remember to put
them on - the current name tags are fairly easy to read.
Did I mention how forgetfull we tend to be? I thought so,
but I don't
remember...
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:45 AM
To: Eric Gray (LO/EUS)
Cc: David Morris; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Importance: High
Eric,
Why not? We each already receive a unique identifier
when we register for the meeting - all the RFID tag needs to contain is
that identifier, no personal info is required.
There could also be an opt-in locator service to let
other attendees look up what meeting room you're in at that time. I
would opt in - I'm alrways trying to find particular people during the
week, and this would certainly help people to find me.
Cheers,
Andy
On 3/27/07, Eric Gray (LO/EUS) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Excellent idea - NOT!!!
All we need is something else to wrap in
aluminum foil...
Thanks!
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Andrew G. Malis
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:55 AM
To: David Morris
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RFID (was: identifying yourself
at the mic)
RFID would be a great way to replace the
blue sheets as well - put an RFID reader at the
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Eric-
Did I misunderstand your original note? I thought you were suggesting
that IETFers were generally paranoid and forgetful. That certainly is
true for me, and yet I remember to wear my badge. But please don't allow
me to put words in your mouth; if I missed your point please clarify.
Cheers,
-Benson
From: Eric Gray (LO/EUS) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:49 PM
To: Schliesser, Benson
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
On the flip side, you could be arguing that nobody would be able
to understand
what I said without your helpful intervention. Must get tiring
having to put words
in other people's mouths all of the time...
Thanks!
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Schliesser, Benson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:27 PM
To: Eric Gray (LO/EUS)
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Importance: High
Eric-
It sounds like your argument is: "We're too incompetent
to say our names at the mic, so we're probably too incompetent to use a
RFID system." Did I get that right?
While I'm certainly not going to defend the competence
of every IETF participant, I don't find much merit in that argument. In
my (unscientific) first-hand experiences, it seems that most people do
manage to wear their nametags at the meeting. And many of the names on
those tags are of cultural origins other than my own, i.e. from a
non-English speaking country. If I could actually see the name of the
person speaking, it seems like a great improvement over hearing a name
which is unintelligible to my ears or hearing no name at all. And if
somebody forgets their RFID-badge, then I'm no worse off than I am
today.
In other words, I think we could come up with a system
that worked well enough to be a net improvement over our current
operational model.
On the other hand, I am amused by your idea of scanning
the streets for RFID responses that look like IETF-badges. Then my robot
army could track down and kill all IETF participants whom oppose my
plans to take over the Internet! Or maybe I could just use them for some
fun practical jokes instead...
Cheers,
-Benson
From: Eric Gray (LO/EUS)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:56 PM
To: Andrew G. Malis
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at
the mic)
Andy,
The problem is that we are a perpetually
forgetful crowd. In particular, we
tend to forget to take our badges off when we
wander around town. Hence,
it is likely that more people will be able to
tell where we are than those who
we intend to know where we are.
Kind of goes with the tendency to forget to
identify yourself at the mike.
So, we get a nice RFID protective wallet and
- remembering how absent
minded we are - we keep our name tags (with all
of our other RFID badges,
and passes) in that protective wallet.
As a result, unless you need to get it out
to get into a room, it will likely
be inside that protective wallet most of the
week. On the plus side, that
means I won't be the only one who forgets to put
my name tag on. On the
negative side, an RFID name tag - especially one
that is in a protective
wallet - is not particularly human readable. At
least - if we remember to put
them on - the current name tags are fairly easy
to read.
Did I mention how forgetfull we tend to be?
I thought so, but I don't
remember...
--
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Forgive me for not sharing the American enthusiasm for such technologies. I note that while the US election systems stagger from one fiasco to the next there British electoral technology based on paper ballots, pens and human counters/scrutinizers is considerably cheaper to operate and has not failed since the introduction of universal suffrage. Use of that type of technology might be viable in ten years time but at this point they are in the 'vastly more trouble than could possibly be worth' bucket. Wait until they become common at conferences that have a static venue before even thinking to use them at a movable feast like the IETF. From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:55 AM To: David Morris Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic) RFID would be a great way to replace the blue sheets as well - put an RFID reader at the door of each meeting room. Embed the chip in the name tag so you don't need to remember to bring anything else from your hotel room in the morning. Cheers, Andy On Mon, 26 Mar 2007, Schliesser, Benson wrote: Sun has been pushing RFID technology quite heavily ... perhaps they would sponsor an experiment??? ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
On the flip side, you could be arguing that nobody would be able to
understand
what I said without your helpful intervention. Must get tiring having
to put words
in other people's mouths all of the time...
Thanks!
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Schliesser, Benson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:27 PM
To: Eric Gray (LO/EUS)
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Importance: High
Eric-
It sounds like your argument is: "We're too incompetent to say
our names at the mic, so we're probably too incompetent to use a RFID
system." Did I get that right?
While I'm certainly not going to defend the competence of every
IETF participant, I don't find much merit in that argument. In my
(unscientific) first-hand experiences, it seems that most people do
manage to wear their nametags at the meeting. And many of the names on
those tags are of cultural origins other than my own, i.e. from a
non-English speaking country. If I could actually see the name of the
person speaking, it seems like a great improvement over hearing a name
which is unintelligible to my ears or hearing no name at all. And if
somebody forgets their RFID-badge, then I'm no worse off than I am
today.
In other words, I think we could come up with a system that
worked well enough to be a net improvement over our current operational
model.
On the other hand, I am amused by your idea of scanning the
streets for RFID responses that look like IETF-badges. Then my robot
army could track down and kill all IETF participants whom oppose my
plans to take over the Internet! Or maybe I could just use them for some
fun practical jokes instead...
Cheers,
-Benson
From: Eric Gray (LO/EUS) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:56 PM
To: Andrew G. Malis
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Andy,
The problem is that we are a perpetually forgetful
crowd. In particular, we
tend to forget to take our badges off when we wander
around town. Hence,
it is likely that more people will be able to tell where
we are than those who
we intend to know where we are.
Kind of goes with the tendency to forget to identify
yourself at the mike.
So, we get a nice RFID protective wallet and -
remembering how absent
minded we are - we keep our name tags (with all of our
other RFID badges,
and passes) in that protective wallet.
As a result, unless you need to get it out to get
into a room, it will likely
be inside that protective wallet most of the week. On
the plus side, that
means I won't be the only one who forgets to put my name
tag on. On the
negative side, an RFID name tag - especially one that is
in a protective
wallet - is not particularly human readable. At least -
if we remember to put
them on - the current name tags are fairly easy to read.
Did I mention how forgetfull we tend to be? I
thought so, but I don't
remember...
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:45 AM
To: Eric Gray (LO/EUS)
Cc: David Morris; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at
the mic)
Importance: High
Eric,
Why not? We each already receive a unique
identifier when we register for the meeting - all the RFID tag needs to
contain is that identifier, no personal info is required.
There could also be an opt-in locator service to
let other attendees look up what meeting room you're in at that time. I
would opt in - I'm alrways trying to find particular people during the
week, and this would certainly help people to find me.
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Andy,
The problem is that we are a perpetually forgetful crowd. In
particular, we
tend to forget to take our badges off when we wander around town.
Hence,
it is likely that more people will be able to tell where we are than
those who
we intend to know where we are.
Kind of goes with the tendency to forget to identify yourself at the
mike.
So, we get a nice RFID protective wallet and - remembering how
absent
minded we are - we keep our name tags (with all of our other RFID
badges,
and passes) in that protective wallet.
As a result, unless you need to get it out to get into a room, it
will likely
be inside that protective wallet most of the week. On the plus side,
that
means I won't be the only one who forgets to put my name tag on. On the
negative side, an RFID name tag - especially one that is in a protective
wallet - is not particularly human readable. At least - if we remember
to put
them on - the current name tags are fairly easy to read.
Did I mention how forgetfull we tend to be? I thought so, but I
don't
remember...
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:45 AM
To: Eric Gray (LO/EUS)
Cc: David Morris; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Importance: High
Eric,
Why not? We each already receive a unique identifier when we
register for the meeting - all the RFID tag needs to contain is that
identifier, no personal info is required.
There could also be an opt-in locator service to let other
attendees look up what meeting room you're in at that time. I would opt
in - I'm alrways trying to find particular people during the week, and
this would certainly help people to find me.
Cheers,
Andy
On 3/27/07, Eric Gray (LO/EUS) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Excellent idea - NOT!!!
All we need is something else to wrap in aluminum
foil...
Thanks!
--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson
From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:55 AM
To: David Morris
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the
mic)
RFID would be a great way to replace the blue
sheets as well - put an RFID reader at the door of each meeting room.
Embed the chip in the name tag so you don't need to remember to bring
anything else from your hotel room in the morning.
Cheers,
Andy
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007, Schliesser, Benson
wrote:
Sun has been pushing RFID technology
quite heavily ... perhaps they would
sponsor an experiment???
___
Ietf mailing list
Ietf@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Eric, Why not? We each already receive a unique identifier when we register for the meeting - all the RFID tag needs to contain is that identifier, no personal info is required. There could also be an opt-in locator service to let other attendees look up what meeting room you're in at that time. I would opt in - I'm alrways trying to find particular people during the week, and this would certainly help people to find me. Cheers, Andy On 3/27/07, Eric Gray (LO/EUS) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Excellent idea - NOT!!! All we need is something else to wrap in aluminum foil... Thanks! -- Eric Gray Principal Engineer Ericsson -- *From:* Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:55 AM *To:* David Morris *Cc:* ietf@ietf.org *Subject:* RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic) RFID would be a great way to replace the blue sheets as well - put an RFID reader at the door of each meeting room. Embed the chip in the name tag so you don't need to remember to bring anything else from your hotel room in the morning. Cheers, Andy > On Mon, 26 Mar 2007, Schliesser, Benson wrote: > > Sun has been pushing RFID technology quite heavily ... perhaps they > would > sponsor an experiment??? > ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic)
Excellent idea - NOT!!! All we need is something else to wrap in aluminum foil... Thanks! -- Eric Gray Principal Engineer Ericsson From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:55 AM To: David Morris Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RFID (was: identifying yourself at the mic) RFID would be a great way to replace the blue sheets as well - put an RFID reader at the door of each meeting room. Embed the chip in the name tag so you don't need to remember to bring anything else from your hotel room in the morning. Cheers, Andy On Mon, 26 Mar 2007, Schliesser, Benson wrote: Sun has been pushing RFID technology quite heavily ... perhaps they would sponsor an experiment??? ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
