Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Dear Jari et al.; On Feb 12, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: Harald, Margaret, and Simon, Harald wrote actually that's intended to be permitted by RFC 5377 section 4.2: and Margaret wrote: However, I don't think that anyone actually believes that the IETF will track down people who copy RFC text into comments and sue them or attempt to get injunctions against them. (2) Even if the IETF did try to sue you for copying sections of RFC text into your source code comments, they'd almost certainly lose So it seems that we actually do have at least some ability to deal with comment-style use of RFCs fragments in free software. Simon, do you see any residual issues that we need to solve, or were your concerns in areas other than comments? I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe that the IETF has no legal existence and thus cannot sue. Any "IETF" suits would have to come from the Trust. If there are issues, the Trust can solve them by warranting that they will not sue under given conditions, as is being done with the Trust Legal Provisions. Marshall Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Harald, Margaret, and Simon, Harald wrote actually that's intended to be permitted by RFC 5377 section 4.2: and Margaret wrote: However, I don't think that anyone actually believes that the IETF will track down people who copy RFC text into comments and sue them or attempt to get injunctions against them. (2) Even if the IETF did try to sue you for copying sections of RFC text into your source code comments, they'd almost certainly lose So it seems that we actually do have at least some ability to deal with comment-style use of RFCs fragments in free software. Simon, do you see any residual issues that we need to solve, or were your concerns in areas other than comments? Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > > actually that's intended to be permitted by RFC 5377 section 4.2: Oh, that's nice :-) Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finchhttp://dotat.at/ GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Tony Finch wrote: On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Jari Arkko wrote: I agree that there are problematic case, but I believe I hope everyone realizes this is only the case if the RFC in question has code. Otherwise it really does not matter. Only some RFCs have code. Except that it prevents using the text of an RFC as comments in an implementation. actually that's intended to be permitted by RFC 5377 section 4.2: 4.2. Rights Granted for Quoting from IETF Contributions There is rough consensus that it is useful to permit quoting without modification of excerpts from IETF Contributions. Such excerpts may be of any length and in any context. Translation of quotations is also to be permitted. All such quotations should be attributed properly to the IETF and the IETF Contribution from which they are taken. You're not permitted to modify the text. You are permitted to use it. Harald ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Hi Tony, On Feb 12, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Tony Finch wrote: On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Jari Arkko wrote: I agree that there are problematic case, but I believe I hope everyone realizes this is only the case if the RFC in question has code. Otherwise it really does not matter. Only some RFCs have code. Except that it prevents using the text of an RFC as comments in an implementation. Ummm, no it doesn't... There are two reasons why I don't believe that this statement could be true of RFC text with the either the old or new copyright template: (1) No copyright actively _prevents_ anyone from doing anything. You may or may not have a license to do something with copyrighted text, and if you copy the text without a license, there may be consequences. However, I don't think that anyone actually believes that the IETF will track down people who copy RFC text into comments and sue them or attempt to get injunctions against them. (2) Even if the IETF did try to sue you for copying sections of RFC text into your source code comments, they'd almost certainly lose, as that would probably fall under fair use provisions. Realistically, the only way you will run into any sort of trouble is if you re-publish RFCs, or reuse large sections of RFC text in another publication and don't follow the licensing requirements. Margaret ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Jari Arkko wrote: >> Except that it prevents using the text of an RFC as comments in an >> implementation. >> > OK -- I can see how that would be useful, but its not clear to me that > it would necessarily be a blocking requirement. Jari is right about this. For a bit of perspective, FSF distributes the text of the GPL under these terms: Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. It is common to prohibit derivative works of standards and licenses, to keep standards standard and to prevent, e.g., more- or less-restrictive versions of licenses from being attributed to the original author. These documents are treated very differently from source code. Aaron ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Excerpts from Rémi Denis-Courmont on Thu, Feb 12, 2009 03:03:02PM +0200: > Oh, I was one relevant working group mailing lists. But from my > experience, I was not at all taken seriously, until I started > showing up at the meetings. In other words, remote participation > does _not_ really work, in this venue, and on-site participation is > often not possible. Given recent corporate budget changes I expect that getting things done outside of face-to-face meetings is going to become more important for others, so we can hope that this situation will improve. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
Tony, Except that it prevents using the text of an RFC as comments in an implementation. OK -- I can see how that would be useful, but its not clear to me that it would necessarily be a blocking requirement. Reality check: I'm writing this e-mail to you and at least my side application, OS, and the first couple of hops are completely pure open source yet every protocol I use before until L2 is from an IETF RFC. Maybe the same on your side. And somehow that code got written, presumably without lots of copying of RFC text... And I can think of some RFCs where I'd rather not use that text... (Comments? Who needs comments?) But in any case, I wouldn't mind if we experimented with a more relaxed license for some set of RFCs... Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
On Thursday 12 February 2009 14:39:53 ext Jari Arkko, you wrote: > I support experiments in this space, though. And it would be really good > to get more of the open source folk participate in IETF specification > work. There are many important open source extensions and protocols that > fit in IETF's scope but were never documented. Even if source code is > freely available, you could have several implementations, commercial vs. > open source interoperability issues, etc. I was an open-source developper before, becoming a Nokia employee and sponsored IETF attendee (and I remain one). I was in a software field where IETF has high relevance (e.g. Teredo and RTSP). But there was no way in the world I could have afforded the travel, accomodation and attendance costs. Oh, I was one relevant working group mailing lists. But from my experience, I was not at all taken seriously, until I started showing up at the meetings. In other words, remote participation does _not_ really work, in this venue, and on-site participation is often not possible. Also, open-source is heavily dependent on running code (as are some standardization venues such as XSF). IETF is not, or not anymore, although I guess this varies from WG to WG. And IETF is very slow compared to the open- source community. All in all, I am not surprising that the IETF process is not so popular with open-source projects, and I am doubtful we can "fix" that without more disruptive changes that current IETFers and their sponsors, would be willing to accept. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont Maemo Software, Nokia Devices R&D ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt)
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Jari Arkko wrote: > > I agree that there are problematic case, but I believe I hope everyone > realizes this is only the case if the RFC in question has code. > Otherwise it really does not matter. Only some RFCs have code. Except that it prevents using the text of an RFC as comments in an implementation. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finchhttp://dotat.at/ GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
