Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
I'm planning to use Phamm again but this time with Cyrus. First I need to know how to execute cyrus tasks without cyradm (creating mailboxes, setting/changing quota, remove mailboxes, etc). All of these tasks, AFAIK, can be performed via IMAP. So I'd image they are performed the same way for all IMAP servers. I was thinking about cyradm + expect but it's just an idea by now. Since you use PHP why not use PHP's Cyrus IMAP support. http://us2.php.net/cyrus http://us2.php.net/manual/en/book.imap.php Although it might be better to see if there is a PEAR/PECL module that wraps/bundles the functionality. http://pear.php.net/package/Net_IMAP http://www.wynia.org/wordpress/2007/02/04/alternate-imap-solution-for-php-pear-net_imap/ My experience with PHP's native IMAP support is that it is quite flaky and has dreadful [to none] error handling. But it is PHP after all. :) Bytes! J. Bakshi escribió: Dear list, I have a running email system which I made in 2006 based on postfix+cyrus+openldap. The authentication is based on openldap. I have done some reading through net and find a new mail server dovecot. I have to create another email system for multidomain based hosting server where both scalability as well as performance should be in prime consideration. I need your kind suggestion for this. shall I use dovecot or cyrus can fit my requirement ? another important questing ; Is there any webinterface which can manage the mail system based on LDAP ? There are many with MySql but any application which can work with postfix+cyrus+openldap ? thanks Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Jason Voorhees schrieb: I'm planning to use Phamm again but this time with Cyrus. First I need to know how to execute cyrus tasks without cyradm (creating mailboxes, setting/changing quota, remove mailboxes, etc). I was thinking about cyradm + expect but it's just an idea by now. Because cyradm is PERL (take a look in cyradm; exec perl -MCyrus::IMAP) you could easily use the modul Cyrus::IMAP in small script that fulfill your needs, like a cyrus-mk-mbx.pl i.e. There is even a modul named IMAP::Admin. Marc Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Hi: Some months ago I was using Courier+Postfix+OpenLDAP+Phamm (http://www.phamm.org). I'm not developer but I understood a little of phamm's code to realize that it would not be difficult to use it with Cyrus. I'm planning to use Phamm again but this time with Cyrus. First I need to know how to execute cyrus tasks without cyradm (creating mailboxes, setting/changing quota, remove mailboxes, etc). I was thinking about cyradm + expect but it's just an idea by now. Bytes! J. Bakshi escribió: Dear list, I have a running email system which I made in 2006 based on postfix+cyrus+openldap. The authentication is based on openldap. I have done some reading through net and find a new mail server dovecot. I have to create another email system for multidomain based hosting server where both scalability as well as performance should be in prime consideration. I need your kind suggestion for this. shall I use dovecot or cyrus can fit my requirement ? another important questing ; Is there any webinterface which can manage the mail system based on LDAP ? There are many with MySql but any application which can work with postfix+cyrus+openldap ? thanks Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Scott M. Likens wrote: With ZFS your leaving a ton of stone-age worries behind. You can go much beyond inodes in the perks of ZFS. and gaining some new worries along the way. while some are convinced that ZFS is the best thing ever others see it as trading a set of known problems for a set of unknown problems (plus it severly limits what OS you can run, which can bring it's own set of problems along) David Lang Vincent Fox wrote: Wesley Craig wrote: Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), With ZFS, inodes are among the many stone-age worries you leave behind. ;-) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html !DSPAM:48d1d451236501804284693! Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Hi David, If you want ZFS you have several choices, OS X (Leopard), as there is a development version that supports RAID-Z and works quite well. You can't boot off of it, but that will change in Snow Leopard. Additionally you can use Opensolaris such as Nexenta, or you can use fuse to get ZFS into Linux. Truthfully I would rather use Nexenta to get ZFS which at least gives you a decent working system... Unlike a standard Solaris where you are forced to get either Sun One (Forte?) or an ancient version of gcc off of sunfreeware and start building. :( However I do look forward to the day when Sun dual licenses ZFS as GPL and sticks it in the Linux kernel and throws us all a wrench, for good or bad ZFS introduces some excellent overlooked ideas that it's about damned time someone introduced. Scott David Lang wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Scott M. Likens wrote: With ZFS your leaving a ton of stone-age worries behind. You can go much beyond inodes in the perks of ZFS. and gaining some new worries along the way. while some are convinced that ZFS is the best thing ever others see it as trading a set of known problems for a set of unknown problems (plus it severly limits what OS you can run, which can bring it's own set of problems along) David Lang Vincent Fox wrote: Wesley Craig wrote: Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), With ZFS, inodes are among the many stone-age worries you leave behind. ;-) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Scott M. Likens wrote: Hi David, If you want ZFS you have several choices, OS X (Leopard), as there is a development version that supports RAID-Z and works quite well. You can't boot off of it, but that will change in Snow Leopard. Additionally you can use Opensolaris such as Nexenta, or you can use fuse to get ZFS into Linux. fuse on linux is not a real option for most uses due to the performance hit. so you have OS X and Solaris (with opensolaris varients), that's not a very wide supproted base for running servers. Truthfully I would rather use Nexenta to get ZFS which at least gives you a decent working system... Unlike a standard Solaris where you are forced to get either Sun One (Forte?) or an ancient version of gcc off of sunfreeware and start building. :( no comment However I do look forward to the day when Sun dual licenses ZFS as GPL and sticks it in the Linux kernel and throws us all a wrench, for good or bad ZFS introduces some excellent overlooked ideas that it's about damned time someone introduced. I don't disagree that ZFS is a prod to get development on filesystems moving again or to say that they didn't introduce any good ideas, but I do disagree with people who seem to think that ZFS is perfect, and is so much better then any other filesystem that the availablity of ZFS should be the only consideration on what OS to run. David Lang Scott David Lang wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Scott M. Likens wrote: With ZFS your leaving a ton of stone-age worries behind. You can go much beyond inodes in the perks of ZFS. and gaining some new worries along the way. while some are convinced that ZFS is the best thing ever others see it as trading a set of known problems for a set of unknown problems (plus it severly limits what OS you can run, which can bring it's own set of problems along) David Lang Vincent Fox wrote: Wesley Craig wrote: Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), With ZFS, inodes are among the many stone-age worries you leave behind. ;-) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
so you have OS X and Solaris (with opensolaris varients), that's not a very wide supproted base for running servers. FreeBSD 7.x onwards has ZFS available natively. ZFS support in CURRENT seems to have most of the latest stuff from OpenSolaris incorporated and the FS seems to be pretty stable on 64 bit x86 (amd64) platform at least. So make that at least three known implementations. Linux/FSF isn't the whole opensource world ;) -Reko Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
David Lang wrote, at 09/18/2008 12:12 AM: doign a quick google check on maildir it also appears that maildir is not as standard as people think it is, it's defined almost entirely by the implementation (DJB started it, but never worked to turn it into a standard for others to use) This was definitely a strike against the Maildir-based systems I evaluated along with Cyrus a few years ago. None of them appeared to be true drop-in replacements for each other, and the subtle differences weren't transparent to the end user. In the end, performance and ease of configuration for the end user are what tipped the scales in favor of Cyrus (Dovecot was in beta at the time and still had some serious bugs). Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 21:12 -0700, David Lang wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Wesley Craig wrote: On 17 Sep 2008, at 11:40, Jens Hoffrichter wrote: Why does cyrus need it's own structure for the mailboxes, which is similar, but not wholly compatible, to maildir. Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), yet I see no distinctive advantage for the cyrus mailbox format to maildir. Performance. I could go on on, but that's the answer, basically. actually, I suspect that Cyrus existed before Maildir and since Cyrus is a 'black box' server there's no advantage to moving to maildir. Also Cyrus has cache, index, and flags stored seperatly from the message itself, which means that when these things are changed the message file itself doesn't need to change. Yep, which is why the sealed mailstore is a good idea: meta-data. You can keep reliable meta-data if third parties can go in and muck about. doign a quick google check on maildir it also appears that maildir is not as standard as people think it is, it's defined almost entirely by the implementation (DJB started it, but never worked to turn it into a standard for others to use) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 21:12 -0700, David Lang wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Wesley Craig wrote: On 17 Sep 2008, at 11:40, Jens Hoffrichter wrote: Why does cyrus need it's own structure for the mailboxes, which is similar, but not wholly compatible, to maildir. Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), yet I see no distinctive advantage for the cyrus mailbox format to maildir. Performance. I could go on on, but that's the answer, basically. actually, I suspect that Cyrus existed before Maildir and since Cyrus is a 'black box' server there's no advantage to moving to maildir. Also Cyrus has cache, index, and flags stored seperatly from the message itself, which means that when these things are changed the message file itself doesn't need to change. Yep, which is why the sealed mailstore is a good idea: meta-data. You can keep reliable meta-data if third parties can go in and muck about. one of those can should be can't :-) David Lang doign a quick google check on maildir it also appears that maildir is not as standard as people think it is, it's defined almost entirely by the implementation (DJB started it, but never worked to turn it into a standard for others to use) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 22:28 -0700, Scott M. Likens wrote: ... I debated writing a gui for Cyrus for administration, but I realized that people implement Cyrus in so many different ways. Kerberos, LDAP, *SQL, various forms of PAM. Then you add in virtual domains, and how you might want alias's and might not, and different MTA support... and I just caved. Right, I've gone through the same thought process. The only way to make a *good* admin tool [IMHO] is to, to some extent, dictate how the system is architected. Since Open Source would generally reject that... no good admin tools. :( This is the primary advantage of M$ solutions: they dictate generally how it will work, what components will be used, and thus can provide [I must admit] rather beautiful admin interfaces and capacity planning tools. Creating a basic way to support Cyrus is extremely easy in ruby, has the ability to create mailboxes easily, delete them, set permissions and set quotas. We've created one in PHP, and I've worked on one in .NET, so I don't think the platform really matters. But each ends up welded to its site's policies and configuration in a myriad of little ways. That would be the basics, but once you create a web-ui to support the basics. You could write it up in Ruby on Rails in a couple hours to cover the basics and get the job done. But it's tying the authentication system and MTA into the app that would be the hassle. :( (now I write this i don't know why I did... but I did) Maybe it has improved but when I surveyed the available management interfaces [years ago now] most of them were pretty scary in terms of security [apache/wwwrun needed to be able to execute commands, no support for real authorization (like Kerberos), etc...]. This stems I think from the fact that configuration of most services can't be done via an API but only by mucking about in files and restarting or at least HUP'ing important processes. It just doesn't lend itself to good manageability. -- Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client. Contact:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/ Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 03:28 -0700, David Lang wrote: On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 21:12 -0700, David Lang wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Wesley Craig wrote: On 17 Sep 2008, at 11:40, Jens Hoffrichter wrote: Why does cyrus need it's own structure for the mailboxes, which is similar, but not wholly compatible, to maildir. Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), yet I see no distinctive advantage for the cyrus mailbox format to maildir. Performance. I could go on on, but that's the answer, basically. actually, I suspect that Cyrus existed before Maildir and since Cyrus is a 'black box' server there's no advantage to moving to maildir. Also Cyrus has cache, index, and flags stored seperatly from the message itself, which means that when these things are changed the message file itself doesn't need to change. Yep, which is why the sealed mailstore is a good idea: meta-data. You can keep reliable meta-data if third parties can go in and muck about. one of those can should be can't :-) Yep, I mean nope, I mean... :) Should have been: quote Yep, which is why the sealed mailstore is a good idea: meta-data. You can't keep reliable meta-data if third parties can go in and muck about /quote Anyway, this is the same reason one puts a web service in front of an RDBMS (rather than clients connecting directly to the DB). Three-tier architectures just facilitate greater consistency and security than two-tier systems [witness the constant security breaches in many LAMP applications, not for the same technical reasons maybe, but at least on one level it is conceptually the same kind of problem]. After a decade of sys-admin work I've become rather a bigot about this kind of thing. doign a quick google check on maildir it also appears that maildir is not as standard as people think it is, it's defined almost entirely by the implementation (DJB started it, but never worked to turn it into a standard for others to use) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Vincent Fox wrote: All I know is this: After running ZFS for the Cyrus mailstores for a year now I'd never go back. Same here, for over year now... four opteron servers to handle 25,000 accounts. All of those servers are Solaris 10 and cyrus lives and works on ZFS. /dale Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
lartc wrote: hi, well, you can edit the gosa config file to only show you the users and their e-mail, etc. you're not obligated to use the entire system ... when install it for clients, i only leave a few pieces of functionality (so they don't blow their foot off). cheers charles Thanks, I'll definitely try it. Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html -- ~~ Joydeep Bakshi, Linux System Admin Kolkatainfoservices Pvt Ltd, 23A Royd Street, Kolkata 700016, India Work Phone 91 033 40014784 http://infoservices.in/ ~~~ Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
RE: suggestion need to design an email system.
Hi, I am in a same situation with you about system components. I have used postfix+cyrus+ldap for email system since 2001 and system performance is still good now. But I have to face with two problems with this system. The first one is GUI for user and administrator. Squirrelmail was helpful enough for user but I have to develop my own administration page for admin purposes. Thanks for the link about Gosa you have sent, I will check it later. My question is about my second problem. It 's about antispam and antivirus. I have used amavis for spam and virus filter. This can block virus very well but it have no effect in blocking spam mail, I think. So is there any one know about other opensource spam filter products which work fine with postfix+cyrus+openldap and helpful in antispam Thanks in advance Do Duc Huy Centre for Development of Information Technology - CDiT Viet Nam Posts Telecommunications Group Address: 2nd Floor, VCCI Building, 9 Dao Duy Anh str,Dongda dist,Hanoi Tel: (+84) 04 5 742 879 Fax: (+84) 04 5 742 857 Mobi: (+84) 0904 34 38 38 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Bakshi Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:17 PM To: lartc Cc: Cyrus Mailing List Subject: Re: suggestion need to design an email system. lartc wrote: hi, well, you can edit the gosa config file to only show you the users and their e-mail, etc. you're not obligated to use the entire system ... when install it for clients, i only leave a few pieces of functionality (so they don't blow their foot off). cheers charles Thanks, I'll definitely try it. Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html -- ~~ Joydeep Bakshi, Linux System Admin Kolkatainfoservices Pvt Ltd, 23A Royd Street, Kolkata 700016, India Work Phone 91 033 40014784 http://infoservices.in/ ~~~ Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Do Duc Huy wrote: My question is about my second problem. It 's about antispam and antivirus. I have used amavis for spam and virus filter. This can block virus very well but it have no effect in blocking spam mail, I think. Get the newest version of amavisd-new, and read the entire documentation for it. You can plug it to DSPAM and SpamAssassin. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
I noticed that dovecot and cyrus don't differ that much in speed to each other. Both seem to excel at certain points, while being weaker at another. But overall the performance on a huge mailbox seemed to be comparable. Dovecot seemed to be slightly better at searching in the mailbox, esp. Do you have SQUAT enabled on Cyrus? Are you sure that the IMAP client in question sends searches to the server (aka: not using Thunderbird)? What really intrigued me about dovecot was the ability to run on standard mailbox formats, which may not be much of an issue when running in a pure cyrus environment, but is a huge plus when migrating from another server. I don't see why it is an advantage for migration. Tools like imapsync don't care. Especially the self-healing indexes which were built on first use of a mailbox, and not using a reconstruct. So getting dovecot to run was very simple. And I like programs which take a common format, and don't think they need to re-invent the wheel. I actually view this as a strong negative as it incentivises people to muck about in the mailstore rather than using the tool-chain. All operations on a real server (IMO) should be performed via a tool and not by hacking about beneath the service. And the last thing is SASL. Dovecot needs no SASL, it brings authenticators for a variety of sources, and offers postfix and exim auth mechs as well. This may be a very personal thing, but if I can work around SASL, I'm very, very glad about that. SASL may offer everything you may need in a century of running a mailserver, but getting it to run is just painful, and debugging is non-existant (at least the last time I tried to implement it, which is a couple of years ago. Since then I worked around the issue whereever I could). Again, I just disagree. Most SASL operations these days, just work. And when using something like GSSAPI SASL is a nicely known quantity. Documentation of SASL is generally pretty bad, but hey, this is Open Source. In general *ALL* the documentation is crap. :) Cyrus has undisputed the broadest implementation of the IMAP protocol in the open source world, especially regarding shared folders. If you need that, there is no way around cyrus. It has a very broad user base, and has proven itsself to be quite solid in terms of scalability and stability. Dovecot has yet to prove that (at least to me). If I personally had the chance, I would give dovecot a shot, at least in a testing environment. But probably mostly out of curiosity, and because Its new ;) But except for the missing support for shared mail folders, I see no real reasons against dovecot, at least not for giving it a try. Does Dovecot support: - Delayed expunge - Expiration (like ipurge) - Single-instance storage Not that Cyrus couldn't do with some improvement. The notifyd, which is really interesting, is basically useless. It would be very nice to have a way to do push e-mail without polling mailboxes. Neither, I believe, offer any real reporting, via SNMP or any other mechanism so all capacity planning involves crawling around the OS collecting various statistics. (I'm pretty sure Cyrus actually has some SNMP support, but documentation is zero; I also haven't looked in awhile). And please don't take this as a personal insult to all hardcore cyrus evangelist. I tried to be just and unbiased, and after all, it is MY PERSONAL OPINION. On this mailinglist, you don't need one more person voting for cyrus, there are enough of those ;) Yep. :) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Heya :) 2008/9/17 Adam Tauno Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I noticed that dovecot and cyrus don't differ that much in speed to each other. Both seem to excel at certain points, while being weaker at another. But overall the performance on a huge mailbox seemed to be comparable. Dovecot seemed to be slightly better at searching in the mailbox, esp. Do you have SQUAT enabled on Cyrus? Are you sure that the IMAP client in question sends searches to the server (aka: not using Thunderbird)? Nope, I hadn't enabled squat there. It was a plain Debian default install for all the three mailservers. And I don't see this values as the absolute truth, as they weren't done on a carefully engineered test environment, but on a vmware I put together for that purpose. But I noticed certain trends there, and I only will talk about them instead of absolute numbers :) And yes, I am certain that the search was sent to the server, as it was a test script written on top of the python imap library, and I measured times in there. Again, I repeat, I don't take those numbers at a face value, but rather wanted to get an overall impression, if it would be useful to pursue dovecot instead of cyrus (and because a colleague of mine emphasized always the point that cyrus is the fastest OSS IMAP server out there, and I wanted to see that for myself ;) ) What really intrigued me about dovecot was the ability to run on standard mailbox formats, which may not be much of an issue when running in a pure cyrus environment, but is a huge plus when migrating from another server. I don't see why it is an advantage for migration. Tools like imapsync don't care. Certainly it doesn't do much for a smaller system. But today I discussed with the same colleague about something I added to a migration process which added 1s per mailbox to the migration process...And that became a huge issue. ;) I don't think that an imap sync is the fastest way of doing a migrate of a complete server. But that is totally unrelated to the point I was trying to make, it just came to my mind when talking about migration. I really liked the fact that I could just stop courier on the vmware, start dovecot and use the same mailstore without any conversion. It would have been the same for an uw-imapd, with just a simple change in the config file, instead of a conversion for all of my mailboxes. I see that as a plus, and don't see anything negative there. Especially the self-healing indexes which were built on first use of a mailbox, and not using a reconstruct. So getting dovecot to run was very simple. And I like programs which take a common format, and don't think they need to re-invent the wheel. I actually view this as a strong negative as it incentivises people to muck about in the mailstore rather than using the tool-chain. All operations on a real server (IMO) should be performed via a tool and not by hacking about beneath the service. Well, that is an issue about access rights management instead of imap server things. If I allow my users to muck directly in their mailstorage directories, I need to live with the consequences. For me, everything done to a mailbox should be done through my imap server. So on my servers, users don't have direct access to their mailbox (if they have a unix user at all). The point I was trying to make here: Why does cyrus need it's own structure for the mailboxes, which is similar, but not wholly compatible, to maildir. Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), yet I see no distinctive advantage for the cyrus mailbox format to maildir. Contrary, I could restore a maildir mailbox including seen state completely, even if my metadata crashes. And the last thing is SASL. Dovecot needs no SASL, it brings authenticators for a variety of sources, and offers postfix and exim auth mechs as well. This may be a very personal thing, but if I can work around SASL, I'm very, very glad about that. SASL may offer everything you may need in a century of running a mailserver, but getting it to run is just painful, and debugging is non-existant (at least the last time I tried to implement it, which is a couple of years ago. Since then I worked around the issue whereever I could). Again, I just disagree. Most SASL operations these days, just work. And when using something like GSSAPI SASL is a nicely known quantity. Documentation of SASL is generally pretty bad, but hey, this is Open Source. In general *ALL* the documentation is crap. :) Well, as I said, I have given up on SASL like 4 years ago. I tried to implement a simple authentication against a postgres database for postfix, and I fiddled around for 3 days without coming anywhere near a success. I ended up emulating the saslauthd protocol from an external program, which accesses the database directly. That worked like a charm, and was considerably less work. Since then, I never bothered with SASL ago
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Another thing which really intrigued me was the inherent cluster-ability of dovecot, which is a huge PITA to get to run on cyrus (as I have just implemented it a couple of months ago). Yet I only have read about it in the documentation, and not actually seen it in action. But at least they thought about running on a clustered file system Cyrus works quite well on a cluster with clustered filesystem. Do you talk about murder/replication or a 'simple' cluster? Simon Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Hello, 2008/9/17 Simon Matter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Another thing which really intrigued me was the inherent cluster-ability of dovecot, which is a huge PITA to get to run on cyrus (as I have just implemented it a couple of months ago). Yet I only have read about it in the documentation, and not actually seen it in action. But at least they thought about running on a clustered file system Cyrus works quite well on a cluster with clustered filesystem. Do you talk about murder/replication or a 'simple' cluster? Sorry, I really didn't make myself clear here. I'm not talking about an active/passive cluster, where one cyrus instance is running and another server takes over when the main one dies, but an active/active configuration, where several nodes access the same meta databases and mailboxes which is residing on a SAN with a clustered filesystem (in my case GFS). And cyrus had some issues running in that configuration which took us a week or two to figure out, which were related to the berkeley db support compiled in. There are some things regarding mmap file io, GFS and mutexes which doesn't really work. After I compiled cyrus without bdb support, it now works like a charm, and we have now 5k mailboxes on the 3 machine cluster, testing it now for a couple of weeks before we migrate the rest of the mailboxes :) Dovecot seemed to have thought and adresses those issues about concurrent access, and it just seems to play more nicely in a heterogenous environment than cyrus, which needs exclusive management access to the mailstore. At least, if you follow best practices, and everything else is a bit of a guessing game.Been there, done that ;) Jens Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
On 17 Sep 2008, at 11:40, Jens Hoffrichter wrote: Why does cyrus need it's own structure for the mailboxes, which is similar, but not wholly compatible, to maildir. Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), yet I see no distinctive advantage for the cyrus mailbox format to maildir. Performance. I could go on on, but that's the answer, basically. :wes Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Wesley Craig wrote: Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), With ZFS, inodes are among the many stone-age worries you leave behind. ;-) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
Do Duc Huy wrote: Hi, I am in a same situation with you about system components. I have used postfix+cyrus+ldap for email system since 2001 and system performance is still good now. But I have to face with two problems with this system. The first one is GUI for user and administrator. The GUI to administrate the cyrus+ldap is really a wanted since long. Presently I am using egroupware groupware and it provides emailadmin interface to put the cyrus admin user and password. When I create a new user, it also creates a mailbox for that user in the cyrus. But running a groupware just to administrate the cyrus is more than enough. That's why I am looking an interface to do the same. There is web-cyradm but I have not found any doc which shows how to configure it to work with Ldap. If you find any success with gosa or something else , please let us know. we can't overlook the postfix+cyrus+ldap combination because of its performance. ldap is first but difficult to design tool for ldap Squirrelmail was helpful enough for user but I have to develop my own administration page for admin purposes. Thanks for the link about Gosa you have sent, I will check it later. My question is about my second problem. It 's about antispam and antivirus. I have used amavis for spam and virus filter. This can block virus very well but it have no effect in blocking spam mail, I think. So is there any one know about other opensource spam filter products which work fine with postfix+cyrus+openldap and helpful in antispam Amavisd-new and spamassasin are your friend. Thanks in advance Do Duc Huy Centre for Development of Information Technology - CDiT Viet Nam Posts Telecommunications Group Address: 2nd Floor, VCCI Building, 9 Dao Duy Anh str,Dongda dist,Hanoi Tel: (+84) 04 5 742 879 Fax: (+84) 04 5 742 857 Mobi: (+84) 0904 34 38 38 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Bakshi Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:17 PM To: lartc Cc: Cyrus Mailing List Subject: Re: suggestion need to design an email system. lartc wrote: hi, well, you can edit the gosa config file to only show you the users and their e-mail, etc. you're not obligated to use the entire system ... when install it for clients, i only leave a few pieces of functionality (so they don't blow their foot off). cheers charles Thanks, I'll definitely try it. Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html -- ~~ Joydeep Bakshi, Linux System Admin Kolkatainfoservices Pvt Ltd, 23A Royd Street, Kolkata 700016, India Work Phone 91 033 40014784 http://infoservices.in/ ~~~ Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
With ZFS your leaving a ton of stone-age worries behind. You can go much beyond inodes in the perks of ZFS. Vincent Fox wrote: Wesley Craig wrote: Maildir and cyrus both suffer from the same disadvantages (huge needs in terms of inodes etc.), With ZFS, inodes are among the many stone-age worries you leave behind. ;-) Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html !DSPAM:48d1d451236501804284693! Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
... I debated writing a gui for Cyrus for administration, but I realized that people implement Cyrus in so many different ways. Kerberos, LDAP, *SQL, various forms of PAM. Then you add in virtual domains, and how you might want alias's and might not, and different MTA support... and I just caved. Creating a basic way to support Cyrus is extremely easy in ruby, has the ability to create mailboxes easily, delete them, set permissions and set quotas. That would be the basics, but once you create a web-ui to support the basics. You could write it up in Ruby on Rails in a couple hours to cover the basics and get the job done. But it's tying the authentication system and MTA into the app that would be the hassle. :( (now I write this i don't know why I did... but I did) J. Bakshi wrote: Do Duc Huy wrote: Hi, I am in a same situation with you about system components. I have used postfix+cyrus+ldap for email system since 2001 and system performance is still good now. But I have to face with two problems with this system. The first one is GUI for user and administrator. The GUI to administrate the cyrus+ldap is really a wanted since long. Presently I am using egroupware groupware and it provides emailadmin interface to put the cyrus admin user and password. When I create a new user, it also creates a mailbox for that user in the cyrus. But running a groupware just to administrate the cyrus is more than enough. That's why I am looking an interface to do the same. There is web-cyradm but I have not found any doc which shows how to configure it to work with Ldap. If you find any success with gosa or something else , please let us know. we can't overlook the postfix+cyrus+ldap combination because of its performance. ldap is first but difficult to design tool for ldap Squirrelmail was helpful enough for user but I have to develop my own administration page for admin purposes. Thanks for the link about Gosa you have sent, I will check it later. My question is about my second problem. It 's about antispam and antivirus. I have used amavis for spam and virus filter. This can block virus very well but it have no effect in blocking spam mail, I think. So is there any one know about other opensource spam filter products which work fine with postfix+cyrus+openldap and helpful in antispam Amavisd-new and spamassasin are your friend. Thanks in advance Do Duc Huy Centre for Development of Information Technology - CDiT Viet Nam Posts Telecommunications Group Address: 2nd Floor, VCCI Building, 9 Dao Duy Anh str,Dongda dist,Hanoi Tel: (+84) 04 5 742 879 Fax: (+84) 04 5 742 857 Mobi: (+84) 0904 34 38 38 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Bakshi Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:17 PM To: lartc Cc: Cyrus Mailing List Subject: Re: suggestion need to design an email system. lartc wrote: hi, well, you can edit the gosa config file to only show you the users and their e-mail, etc. you're not obligated to use the entire system ... when install it for clients, i only leave a few pieces of functionality (so they don't blow their foot off). cheers charles Thanks, I'll definitely try it. Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
lartc wrote: hi, snip another important questing ; Is there any webinterface which can manage the mail system based on LDAP ? yes there is -- and it's great. https://oss.gonicus.de/labs/gosa/ gosa manages your ldap, and therefore your mail system. takes a bit of setup, but all your accounts can be managed here. Thanks for the link, but anything which is only for the email server ? any thin application ? Presently I do the management using egroupware cheers Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html -- ~~ Joydeep Bakshi, Linux System Admin Kolkatainfoservices Pvt Ltd, 23A Royd Street, Kolkata 700016, India Work Phone 91 033 40014784 http://infoservices.in/ ~~~ Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: suggestion need to design an email system.
hi, well, you can edit the gosa config file to only show you the users and their e-mail, etc. you're not obligated to use the entire system ... when install it for clients, i only leave a few pieces of functionality (so they don't blow their foot off). cheers charles Cyrus Home Page: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/ Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/twiki List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
