Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Niels Dossche]

On 6/3/23 00:28, Jorg Sowa wrote:
> I would write RFC anyway to check the reception, but I need Karma to do it.
> Could I ask someone for it?
> 

You'll need to register on the wiki, and send an email to internals in which 
you say your wiki name.

Kind regards
Niels

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Jorg Sowa]

> In my opinion, since it isn't, and likely never was, a legal ISO8601
> string, it's a no-brainer that it should be deprecated. (it's at least
> been illegal since iso8601:2004 released in 2004)

I thought the same when I started the discussion. It's not good promotion
for PHP, when every mention about using proper ISO8601 format starts with
warning (use DATE_ATOM, not ISO_8601!). It doesn't need to be removed
straight in PHP 9. We can wait for next major version.

I just don't understand why keeping invalid concept in the language is
important for such simple structure like constant. I understand it's BC,
but it cannot be keep forever.

I would write RFC anyway to check the reception, but I need Karma to do it.
Could I ask someone for it?

Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Hans Henrik Bergan]

DATE_ISO8601 doesn't have to be removed anytime soon, but no new code
should be written using that constant, thus an E_DEPRECATED is
warranted.

Is anyone really arguing against that statement?

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 18:26, Hans Henrik Bergan  wrote:
>
> >In my opinion, deprecating this does not do anything besides annoying
> users.
>
> In my opinion, since it isn't, and likely never was, a legal ISO8601
> string, it's a no-brainer that it should be deprecated. (it's at least
> been illegal since iso8601:2004 released in 2004)
>
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 12:17, Derick Rethans  wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 19 May 2023, Jorg Sowa wrote:
> >
> > > I would like to propose the deprecation of the constants DATE_ISO8601,
> > > DateTimeInterface::ISO8601 and DateTimeInterface::RFC7231, DATE_RFC7231.
> >
> > …
> >
> > > In my opinion the question is not whether this constant should be
> > > deprecated, but when. I know that the problem was discussed in the past,
> > > but I hope enough time has passed already to touch this topic again
> > > although of the BC nature. [6] 
> > > 
> > > [7]
> >
> > In my opinion, deprecating this does not do anything besides annoying
> > users.
> >
> > > 
> > > Arguments for deprecating DATE_RFC7231:
> > > - error prone nature, the format never really supported timezone. I'm not
> > > sure how it appeared in the code, but tests clearly lack cases for this
> > > format. I'm not sure if it was missed on purpose, but with tests it would
> > > be obvious that the format shouldn't ever appear in the core. [8]
> > >  [9]
> > > 
> >
> > This should instead be fixed of being deprecated. It is a recent
> > addition after all.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Derick
> >
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Hans Henrik Bergan]

>In my opinion, deprecating this does not do anything besides annoying
users.

In my opinion, since it isn't, and likely never was, a legal ISO8601
string, it's a no-brainer that it should be deprecated. (it's at least
been illegal since iso8601:2004 released in 2004)

On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 12:17, Derick Rethans  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 19 May 2023, Jorg Sowa wrote:
>
> > I would like to propose the deprecation of the constants DATE_ISO8601,
> > DateTimeInterface::ISO8601 and DateTimeInterface::RFC7231, DATE_RFC7231.
>
> …
>
> > In my opinion the question is not whether this constant should be
> > deprecated, but when. I know that the problem was discussed in the past,
> > but I hope enough time has passed already to touch this topic again
> > although of the BC nature. [6] 
> > [7]
>
> In my opinion, deprecating this does not do anything besides annoying
> users.
>
> > 
> > Arguments for deprecating DATE_RFC7231:
> > - error prone nature, the format never really supported timezone. I'm not
> > sure how it appeared in the code, but tests clearly lack cases for this
> > format. I'm not sure if it was missed on purpose, but with tests it would
> > be obvious that the format shouldn't ever appear in the core. [8]
> >  [9]
> > 
>
> This should instead be fixed of being deprecated. It is a recent
> addition after all.
>
> cheers,
> Derick
>
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Derick Rethans]

On Fri, 19 May 2023, Jorg Sowa wrote:

> I would like to propose the deprecation of the constants DATE_ISO8601,
> DateTimeInterface::ISO8601 and DateTimeInterface::RFC7231, DATE_RFC7231.

…

> In my opinion the question is not whether this constant should be
> deprecated, but when. I know that the problem was discussed in the past,
> but I hope enough time has passed already to touch this topic again
> although of the BC nature. [6] 
> [7]

In my opinion, deprecating this does not do anything besides annoying 
users.

> 
> Arguments for deprecating DATE_RFC7231:
> - error prone nature, the format never really supported timezone. I'm not
> sure how it appeared in the code, but tests clearly lack cases for this
> format. I'm not sure if it was missed on purpose, but with tests it would
> be obvious that the format shouldn't ever appear in the core. [8]
>  [9]
> 

This should instead be fixed of being deprecated. It is a recent 
addition after all.

cheers,
Derick

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Jorg Sowa]

> What do you mean? Do you mean that the constant was legal at some point?

Sorry, but I don't have this knowledge. It's invalid since 2004, but I
suppose this format was implemented before then. Undoubtedly the format is
invalid now.

The usage in 1000 most popular libraries:
DATE_ISO8601 (4 packages, 1 in comments)
DateTimeInterface::ISO8601 (18 packages)
DateTimeInterface::RFC7231 (1 package - Jetbrains/phpstorm-stubs)
DATE_RFC7231 (1 package - Jetbrains/phpstorm-stubs)

Most of the packages already inform about deprecation. PHP stubs by
Jetbrans warn about deprecation, although it's not officially.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Hans Henrik Bergan]

>outdated format, standard has been changed while ago

What do you mean? Do you mean that the constant was legal at some point?
Was there ever a version of ISO8601 allowing the mixing of "extended
format" and "basic format" ? The earliest version I've read, iso8604:2004,
does not allow it (more on that here:
https://externals.io/email/114883/source - can't find the proper link right
now, am on phone). Haven't read the older 1988/1999/2000 versions, and it's
possible one of those allowed it, but I doubt it. The only thing I can say
for sure is that it's been illegal since the 2004 version

On Fri, May 19, 2023, 23:17 Jorg Sowa  wrote:

> > How common is it in the wild?  I am pretty sure I've used it myself
> without really thinking many times, which I suspect is common.  Knowing how
> much code would be impacted would determine how we'd go about deprecating
> it and on what timeline.
>
> I'm not sure how would be possible to find out. I suppose most of the
> frameworks (and thus popular PHP libraries) avoid this constant as showed
> in Drupal and Carbon. The scanning of popular libraries will not show the
> scale of the problem (however I will do it tomorrow) Helpful fact is that
> those constants are just constants so it's easily replaceable with
> strings 'Y-m-d\\TH:i:sO'
> and 'D, d M Y H:i:s \\G\\M\\T'.
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Jorg Sowa]

> How common is it in the wild?  I am pretty sure I've used it myself
without really thinking many times, which I suspect is common.  Knowing how
much code would be impacted would determine how we'd go about deprecating
it and on what timeline.

I'm not sure how would be possible to find out. I suppose most of the
frameworks (and thus popular PHP libraries) avoid this constant as showed
in Drupal and Carbon. The scanning of popular libraries will not show the
scale of the problem (however I will do it tomorrow) Helpful fact is that
those constants are just constants so it's easily replaceable with
strings 'Y-m-d\\TH:i:sO'
and 'D, d M Y H:i:s \\G\\M\\T'.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Larry Garfield]

On Fri, May 19, 2023, at 8:49 PM, Jorg Sowa wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I would like to propose the deprecation of the constants DATE_ISO8601,
> DateTimeInterface::ISO8601 and DateTimeInterface::RFC7231, DATE_RFC7231.
>
> Arguments for deprecating DATE_ISO8601:
> - outdated format, standard has been changed while ago
> - incompatible with format ISO8601_EXPANDED
> - misleading behavior for developers [1]
> 
> [2]
> 
> - doesn't support microseconds [3] 
> 
> - many misunderstandings in the userland [4]
> 
> [5] 
>
> In my opinion the question is not whether this constant should be
> deprecated, but when. I know that the problem was discussed in the past,
> but I hope enough time has passed already to touch this topic again
> although of the BC nature. [6] 
> [7]
>
> 
> Arguments for deprecating DATE_RFC7231:
> - error prone nature, the format never really supported timezone. I'm not
> sure how it appeared in the code, but tests clearly lack cases for this
> format. I'm not sure if it was missed on purpose, but with tests it would
> be obvious that the format shouldn't ever appear in the core. [8]
>  [9]
> 
>
> It's my first proposition in the PHP Core and I'm not sure if I should
> suggest it through RFC or normal discussion like this. If I should propose
> it in RFC then I can prepare it along with PR.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jorg

How common is it in the wild?  I am pretty sure I've used it myself without 
really thinking many times, which I suspect is common.  Knowing how much code 
would be impacted would determine how we'd go about deprecating it and on what 
timeline.

--Larry Garfield

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[PHP-DEV] Deprecation of the formats DATE_ISO8601 and DATE_RFC7231

[Jorg Sowa]

Hello everyone,

I would like to propose the deprecation of the constants DATE_ISO8601,
DateTimeInterface::ISO8601 and DateTimeInterface::RFC7231, DATE_RFC7231.

Arguments for deprecating DATE_ISO8601:
- outdated format, standard has been changed while ago
- incompatible with format ISO8601_EXPANDED
- misleading behavior for developers [1]

[2]

- doesn't support microseconds [3] 
- many misunderstandings in the userland [4]

[5] 

In my opinion the question is not whether this constant should be
deprecated, but when. I know that the problem was discussed in the past,
but I hope enough time has passed already to touch this topic again
although of the BC nature. [6] 
[7]


Arguments for deprecating DATE_RFC7231:
- error prone nature, the format never really supported timezone. I'm not
sure how it appeared in the code, but tests clearly lack cases for this
format. I'm not sure if it was missed on purpose, but with tests it would
be obvious that the format shouldn't ever appear in the core. [8]
 [9]


It's my first proposition in the PHP Core and I'm not sure if I should
suggest it through RFC or normal discussion like this. If I should propose
it in RFC then I can prepare it along with PR.

Kind regards,
Jorg