Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Kris Craig]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Andrew Faulds  wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> First off I'd like to apologise for being a generally useless and overly
> reactive poster on this list. I'm going to exercise more self-constraint
> now after noticing I made more posts on this list this month than anyone
> else, this month.
>
> Anyway, onto the subject of this email, in which I will try to be at least
> somewhat helpful.
>
> I notice that the RFCs page (http://wiki.php.net/rfc) doesn't seem to
> have any clear instructions on how to create an RFC. I think someone
> (perhaps me) should write an RFC on how to write an RFC, and also the
> procedure involved, e.g. how to get wiki karma, voting process.
>
> Secondly, I noticed that Python's PEPs are numbered, unlike PHP's RFCs.
> Whilst they aren't quite the same thing, I wonder if this would be useful,
> particularly since it provides a simple and unambiguous way to refer to
> one, e.g. RFC 123 instead of "RFC on how to write an RFC". Plus it would
> provide for an obvious way to sort RFCs in a list, by number. At the moment
> I'm not really sure if there's an sort of sorting on the RFCs page,
> although RFCs certainly seem to be categorised.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Apologies again,
> Andrew Faulds
>
> http://ajf.me/
>
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>
>
I think what you're looking for is this:

https://wiki.php.net/rfc/voting


As far as formatting goes, I'd just copy what other RFCs have done.  I've
raised the idea of clarifying the voting process with a new RFC awhile ago
but nobody seemed interested one way or another so nothing ever came of it.

Regarding sorting, IMHO it really doesn't matter.  My preference would be
to put the most recent ones on top, but so long as they're listed under the
right status categories then I really don't think it matters all that much.

--Kris

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Ryan McCue]

Andrew Faulds wrote:
Secondly, I noticed that Python's PEPs are numbered, unlike PHP's 
RFCs. Whilst they aren't quite the same thing, I wonder if this would 
be useful, particularly since it provides a simple and unambiguous way 
to refer to one, e.g. RFC 123 instead of "RFC on how to write an RFC".


If we do that, we should call them PHP RFCs (PRFCs?) instead, to avoid 
confusion with IETF RFCs, otherwise it may get confusing.


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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

>> Secondly, I noticed that Python's PEPs are numbered, unlike PHP's 
>> RFCs. Whilst they aren't quite the same thing, I wonder if this would 
>> be useful, particularly since it provides a simple and unambiguous way 
>> to refer to one, e.g. RFC 123 instead of "RFC on how to write an RFC".

Why have numbers if we can use URLs? URLs both uniquely identify the RFC
and suggest what they are about. Can you say what PEP 410 is about? How
about https://wiki.php.net/rfc/releaseprocess?

> If we do that, we should call them PHP RFCs (PRFCs?) instead, to avoid 
> confusion with IETF RFCs, otherwise it may get confusing.

I have yet to meet one person who was confused when we talked about
generators RFC and thought we meant IETF RFC describing standards for
electrical generators in data centers.
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Ryan McCue]

Stas Malyshev wrote:
> Why have numbers if we can use URLs? URLs both uniquely identify the RFC
> and suggest what they are about. Can you say what PEP 410 is about? How
> about https://wiki.php.net/rfc/releaseprocess?

That sounds way better, agreed.

> I have yet to meet one person who was confused when we talked about
> generators RFC and thought we meant IETF RFC describing standards for
> electrical generators in data centers.

I meant more with regards to numbered RFCs.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Stefan Marr]

Hi Andrew:

On 25 Jul 2012, at 22:50, Andrew Faulds wrote:

> I think someone (perhaps me) should write an RFC on how to write an RFC

Note that a new page create on the wiki in the RFC namespace comes with a 
template that gives some guidance on how to write an RFC.

Lukas based it on my original Traits RFC, since that one was considered to be a 
nice example. At least it was kind of complete with regard to the essential 
parts of an RFC:

- intro
- motivation
- full description (up-to-date following the discussions) of the proposed 
feature
  - with examples and use cases
- summary of semantics
- a patch
And then based on discussion:
- FAQ or common misconceptions
- alternative proposals
- rejected features
- change log

Best regards
Stefan

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

Hi Stefan,

I made an RFC page on it. http://wiki.php.net/rfc/howto

It's not really an RFC, more a meta-RFC or informational wiki page. It 
would helpful if you could edit it too. I just want to make an obvious 
go-to place for info on this.


Thanks.

On 26/07/12 08:49, Stefan Marr wrote:

Hi Andrew:

On 25 Jul 2012, at 22:50, Andrew Faulds wrote:


I think someone (perhaps me) should write an RFC on how to write an RFC

Note that a new page create on the wiki in the RFC namespace comes with a 
template that gives some guidance on how to write an RFC.

Lukas based it on my original Traits RFC, since that one was considered to be a 
nice example. At least it was kind of complete with regard to the essential 
parts of an RFC:

- intro
- motivation
- full description (up-to-date following the discussions) of the proposed 
feature
   - with examples and use cases
- summary of semantics
- a patch
And then based on discussion:
- FAQ or common misconceptions
- alternative proposals
- rejected features
- change log

Best regards
Stefan




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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Florian Anderiasch]

On 07/26/2012 11:41 AM, Andrew Faulds wrote:
> Hi Stefan,
> 
> I made an RFC page on it. http://wiki.php.net/rfc/howto
> 
> It's not really an RFC, more a meta-RFC or informational wiki page. It
> would helpful if you could edit it too. I just want to make an obvious
> go-to place for info on this.

What I see as most in need of upgrade would be an automatic Table of
Contents on the RFC page itself - with RFCs sorted by status.

There have been numerous cases of people forgetting to put their new RFC
on the index page, not updating to "voting" etc.pp

Greetings,
Florian


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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Lester Caine]

Florian Anderiasch wrote:

I made an RFC page on it.http://wiki.php.net/rfc/howto
>
>It's not really an RFC, more a meta-RFC or informational wiki page. It
>would helpful if you could edit it too. I just want to make an obvious
>go-to place for info on this.

What I see as most in need of upgrade would be an automatic Table of
Contents on the RFC page itself - with RFCs sorted by status.

There have been numerous cases of people forgetting to put their new RFC
on the index page, not updating to "voting" etc.pp


There was a time when one could have written an app for it in PHP ;)

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RE: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Laupretre François]

> There was a time when one could have written an app for it in PHP ;)

Right. We all know from the beginning that a wiki is better than nothing but, 
when the number of users/documents grows, it becomes very hard to keep the 
information up-to-date. 

Another problem is that documents and their comments are not stored together. 
The RFC remains, which is fine, but the comments fly away, except if the author 
manually copies them from the list. IMHO, this is the main drawback of the 
current system: when I read an RFC, I also want to read the comments because 
they're  an integral part of the RFC life. It does not mean that they should 
not be mirrored to the mailing list, but it is essential to store them with the 
RFC.

Maybe it is time to replace the wiki with a real RFC app. Thoughts ? Do you 
know of an existing app used by a similar development community ? If not, what 
would you build it from ? Who would be ready to participate ?

Regards

François

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

On 26/07/12 16:44, Laupretre François wrote:

There was a time when one could have written an app for it in PHP ;)

Right. We all know from the beginning that a wiki is better than nothing but, 
when the number of users/documents grows, it becomes very hard to keep the 
information up-to-date.

Another problem is that documents and their comments are not stored together. 
The RFC remains, which is fine, but the comments fly away, except if the author 
manually copies them from the list. IMHO, this is the main drawback of the 
current system: when I read an RFC, I also want to read the comments because 
they're  an integral part of the RFC life. It does not mean that they should 
not be mirrored to the mailing list, but it is essential to store them with the 
RFC.

Maybe it is time to replace the wiki with a real RFC app. Thoughts ? Do you 
know of an existing app used by a similar development community ? If not, what 
would you build it from ? Who would be ready to participate ?

Regards

François



Hi,

Writing an RFC app doesn't strike me as terribly difficult. We already 
have the VCS/wiki authentication system, so we can use that. Then we 
just need some formatting language (DokuWiki's if separable, else I'd 
suggest Markdown), or no formatting language (plain text), and a 
flat-file or DB storage system (would prefer the former personally).


I'd be willing to write one, although I'm away next week. But I could 
work on it today and tommorow.


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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Levi Morrison]

I'm in favor of an RFC app on the condition it has a nice UX and has
complete unit tests.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

On 26/07/12 18:46, Levi Morrison wrote:

I'm in favor of an RFC app on the condition it has a nice UX and has
complete unit tests.

Welp, guess it's time for me to learn how to unit-test properly.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Kris Craig]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Andrew Faulds  wrote:

> On 26/07/12 18:46, Levi Morrison wrote:
>
>> I'm in favor of an RFC app on the condition it has a nice UX and has
>> complete unit tests.
>>
> Welp, guess it's time for me to learn how to unit-test properly.
>
>
> --
> Andrew Faulds
> http://ajf.me/
>
>
> --
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>
>
Probably best not to just throw something together halphazardly.  It's not
like we're up against a ticking clock or anything.  What do we currently
use for data storage?  MySQL, etc?

I think it would be best to take a multi-vector approach to this.  I.e.
somebody handles the backend core, another person handles the UI templates,
somebody familiar with the existing VCS architecture takes care of auth
integration, and someone else looks into the formatting options.  I could
handle the backend core and put together a nice AJAX/MVC architecture
that'll make it easier for other dev roles to be properly segregated.  I
could have that done by the time Andrew gets back easily enough.


Oh and it should of course also be maintained on Git.  =)

--Kris

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

On 26/07/12 18:53, Kris Craig wrote:



On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Andrew Faulds > wrote:


On 26/07/12 18:46, Levi Morrison wrote:

I'm in favor of an RFC app on the condition it has a nice UX
and has
complete unit tests.

Welp, guess it's time for me to learn how to unit-test properly.


-- 
Andrew Faulds

http://ajf.me/


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Probably best not to just throw something together halphazardly.  It's 
not like we're up against a ticking clock or anything.  What do we 
currently use for data storage?  MySQL, etc?


I think it would be best to take a multi-vector approach to this. 
 I.e. somebody handles the backend core, another person handles the UI 
templates, somebody familiar with the existing VCS architecture takes 
care of auth integration, and someone else looks into the formatting 
options.  I could handle the backend core and put together a nice 
AJAX/MVC architecture that'll make it easier for other dev roles to be 
properly segregated.  I could have that done by the time Andrew gets 
back easily enough.



Oh and it should of course also be maintained on Git.  =)

--Kris

Sounds like a plan. Personally I like SQLite because of its simple data 
types, it's flat-file, and it's reasonable for frequent read, infrequent 
write sites like this.


And I'm on GitHub. I'll get hacking :)

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Andrew Faulds
http://ajf.me/

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Evert Pot]

On Jul 26, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Kris Craig wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Andrew Faulds  wrote:
> 
>> On 26/07/12 18:46, Levi Morrison wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm in favor of an RFC app on the condition it has a nice UX and has
>>> complete unit tests.
>>> 
>> Welp, guess it's time for me to learn how to unit-test properly.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Andrew Faulds
>> http://ajf.me/
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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>> 
>> 
> Probably best not to just throw something together halphazardly.  It's not
> like we're up against a ticking clock or anything.  What do we currently
> use for data storage?  MySQL, etc?

How about using git for the actual documents too.. No better way to collaborate 
imho.

Evert
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

On 26/07/12 19:11, Evert Pot wrote:

On Jul 26, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Kris Craig wrote:


On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Andrew Faulds  wrote:


On 26/07/12 18:46, Levi Morrison wrote:


I'm in favor of an RFC app on the condition it has a nice UX and has
complete unit tests.


Welp, guess it's time for me to learn how to unit-test properly.


--
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http://ajf.me/


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Probably best not to just throw something together halphazardly.  It's not
like we're up against a ticking clock or anything.  What do we currently
use for data storage?  MySQL, etc?

How about using git for the actual documents too.. No better way to collaborate 
imho.

Evert
Ooh, sounds like a good idea. We could have php-rfc repo, and then an 
online viewer that shows the latest official snapshot, or something like 
that.


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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

On 26/07/12 16:44, Laupretre François wrote:

There was a time when one could have written an app for it in PHP ;)

Right. We all know from the beginning that a wiki is better than nothing but, 
when the number of users/documents grows, it becomes very hard to keep the 
information up-to-date.

Another problem is that documents and their comments are not stored together. 
The RFC remains, which is fine, but the comments fly away, except if the author 
manually copies them from the list. IMHO, this is the main drawback of the 
current system: when I read an RFC, I also want to read the comments because 
they're  an integral part of the RFC life. It does not mean that they should 
not be mirrored to the mailing list, but it is essential to store them with the 
RFC.

Maybe it is time to replace the wiki with a real RFC app. Thoughts ? Do you 
know of an existing app used by a similar development community ? If not, what 
would you build it from ? Who would be ready to participate ?

Regards

François

In a reversal of what I said before... not yet. A better organised RFC 
page would be better. I'd be happy to help sort and organise it.


So, how do I get permissions to edit the RFC page? I'm not going to 
fundamentally change anything.


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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Kris Craig]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Andrew Faulds  wrote:

> On 26/07/12 16:44, Laupretre François wrote:
>
>> There was a time when one could have written an app for it in PHP ;)
>>>
>> Right. We all know from the beginning that a wiki is better than nothing
>> but, when the number of users/documents grows, it becomes very hard to keep
>> the information up-to-date.
>>
>> Another problem is that documents and their comments are not stored
>> together. The RFC remains, which is fine, but the comments fly away, except
>> if the author manually copies them from the list. IMHO, this is the main
>> drawback of the current system: when I read an RFC, I also want to read the
>> comments because they're  an integral part of the RFC life. It does not
>> mean that they should not be mirrored to the mailing list, but it is
>> essential to store them with the RFC.
>>
>> Maybe it is time to replace the wiki with a real RFC app. Thoughts ? Do
>> you know of an existing app used by a similar development community ? If
>> not, what would you build it from ? Who would be ready to participate ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> François
>>
>>  In a reversal of what I said before... not yet. A better organised RFC
> page would be better. I'd be happy to help sort and organise it.
>

So then, we're not going to write a new RFC app?  Or are you just talking
about tweaking the wiki while the app is under development?

--Kris

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Andrew Faulds]

On 26/07/12 20:58, Kris Craig wrote:



On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Andrew Faulds > wrote:


On 26/07/12 16:44, Laupretre François wrote:

There was a time when one could have written an app for it
in PHP ;)

Right. We all know from the beginning that a wiki is better
than nothing but, when the number of users/documents grows, it
becomes very hard to keep the information up-to-date.

Another problem is that documents and their comments are not
stored together. The RFC remains, which is fine, but the
comments fly away, except if the author manually copies them
from the list. IMHO, this is the main drawback of the current
system: when I read an RFC, I also want to read the comments
because they're  an integral part of the RFC life. It does not
mean that they should not be mirrored to the mailing list, but
it is essential to store them with the RFC.

Maybe it is time to replace the wiki with a real RFC app.
Thoughts ? Do you know of an existing app used by a similar
development community ? If not, what would you build it from ?
Who would be ready to participate ?

Regards

François

In a reversal of what I said before... not yet. A better organised
RFC page would be better. I'd be happy to help sort and organise it.


So then, we're not going to write a new RFC app?  Or are you just 
talking about tweaking the wiki while the app is under development?


--Kris

I think it's best to do what we can with the wiki, as it stands. There 
are plenty of things we haven't tried. There are macros and such.


--
Andrew Faulds
http://ajf.me/

RE: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Laupretre François]

> How about using git for the actual documents too.. No better way to
> collaborate imho.

Do you mean using github or integrating git VCS in a RFC app ? If you mean 
using github, it is a convenient way to store document evolution and comments, 
but what about the voting process, let alone RFC numbering and status mgmt ? I 
don't know github enough, is it possible to add such plugins/features on it ?

My first idea was to implement it from a CMS, like joomla (mmh, agree, this is 
the only one I know...). This would just require adapting the auth system, 
developing a vote plugin, and adapting an already-existing template. The 
benefits of using a CMS in such a case are well known and I won't repeat them 
here. Hope PHP purists won't blame me for such a terrible suggestion ;)

Regards

François

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Gábor Fási]

On 27 July 2012 13:15, Laupretre François
 wrote:
>> How about using git for the actual documents too.. No better way to
>> collaborate imho.
>
> Do you mean using github or integrating git VCS in a RFC app ? If you mean 
> using github, it is a convenient way to store document evolution and 
> comments, but what about the voting process, let alone RFC numbering and 
> status mgmt ? I don't know github enough, is it possible to add such 
> plugins/features on it ?

The first that came to my mind reading that is a github feature called
Pages[1]. In essence these are static sites hosted on github's
servers, optionally reachable via your own domain.

Though they are static, github supports dynamic content via a tool
called Jekyll. This probably means that after the initial setup one
can easily add a new rfc, change it's status, etc. with all related
pages updating automatically. I played around a bit with jekyll, but
stopped at simple, blog-like functionality.

Being hosted on github this probably means we can use the currect
authentication mechanism (checking for rfc/wiki karma) for this as
well.

[1]: https://help.github.com/categories/20/articles
[2]: https://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/wiki

Regards,
-- Gábor

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Ferenc Kovacs]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Gábor Fási  wrote:

> On 27 July 2012 13:15, Laupretre François
>  wrote:
> >> How about using git for the actual documents too.. No better way to
> >> collaborate imho.
> >
> > Do you mean using github or integrating git VCS in a RFC app ? If you
> mean using github, it is a convenient way to store document evolution and
> comments, but what about the voting process, let alone RFC numbering and
> status mgmt ? I don't know github enough, is it possible to add such
> plugins/features on it ?
>
> The first that came to my mind reading that is a github feature called
> Pages[1]. In essence these are static sites hosted on github's
> servers, optionally reachable via your own domain.
>
> Though they are static, github supports dynamic content via a tool
> called Jekyll. This probably means that after the initial setup one
> can easily add a new rfc, change it's status, etc. with all related
> pages updating automatically. I played around a bit with jekyll, but
> stopped at simple, blog-like functionality.
>
> Being hosted on github this probably means we can use the currect
> authentication mechanism (checking for rfc/wiki karma) for this as
> well.
>
> [1]: https://help.github.com/categories/20/articles
> [2]: https://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/wiki
>
>

sorry for the interruption, but I think we are losing the focus here.
to rewind the stack a little bit:
somebody mentions, that it is a little bit PITA, that we have to manually
manage the rfc index page, it is easy to forget to link your rfc there, or
to forget to edit that page when your rfc status changes.

I agree that this can be a problem, I agree that we should put some effort
fixing it, but

   - I don't think that we need to replace the current wiki with a homebrew
   rfc application just for fixing that issue
   - I don't think that we need to start using a cms (and implementing the
   custom auth, wiki, and voting functionality) for fixing that issue.
   - I can't see how would replacing our php based wiki for a semi-static
   blog/site generator fix our original issue, and even if it would, how would
   we proceed with the voting?
   - Currently writing an rfc and voting is simple enough, you can do it
  from your browser. I'm not sure that we could keep that way if we would
  switch to jekyll (how would voting work? pushing a line addition
to the rfc
  itself?)

If somebody really interested, there are plugins for dokuwiki for
advanced/automatic listing pages from a given namespace, and it is possible
to store meta information for the wiki pages, where we could store all of
the rfc infos like status, author, etc. and we could put together a
plugin/patch for using that meta information for rendering the rfc
startpage.

-- 
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFCs and organisation

[Sherif Ramadan]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Ferenc Kovacs  wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Gábor Fási  wrote:
>
>> On 27 July 2012 13:15, Laupretre François
>>  wrote:
>> >> How about using git for the actual documents too.. No better way to
>> >> collaborate imho.
>> >
>> > Do you mean using github or integrating git VCS in a RFC app ? If you
>> mean using github, it is a convenient way to store document evolution and
>> comments, but what about the voting process, let alone RFC numbering and
>> status mgmt ? I don't know github enough, is it possible to add such
>> plugins/features on it ?
>>
>> The first that came to my mind reading that is a github feature called
>> Pages[1]. In essence these are static sites hosted on github's
>> servers, optionally reachable via your own domain.
>>
>> Though they are static, github supports dynamic content via a tool
>> called Jekyll. This probably means that after the initial setup one
>> can easily add a new rfc, change it's status, etc. with all related
>> pages updating automatically. I played around a bit with jekyll, but
>> stopped at simple, blog-like functionality.
>>
>> Being hosted on github this probably means we can use the currect
>> authentication mechanism (checking for rfc/wiki karma) for this as
>> well.
>>
>> [1]: https://help.github.com/categories/20/articles
>> [2]: https://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/wiki
>>
>>
>
> sorry for the interruption, but I think we are losing the focus here.
> to rewind the stack a little bit:
> somebody mentions, that it is a little bit PITA, that we have to manually
> manage the rfc index page, it is easy to forget to link your rfc there, or
> to forget to edit that page when your rfc status changes.
>
> I agree that this can be a problem, I agree that we should put some effort
> fixing it, but
>
>- I don't think that we need to replace the current wiki with a homebrew
>rfc application just for fixing that issue
>- I don't think that we need to start using a cms (and implementing the
>custom auth, wiki, and voting functionality) for fixing that issue.
>- I can't see how would replacing our php based wiki for a semi-static
>blog/site generator fix our original issue, and even if it would, how would
>we proceed with the voting?
>- Currently writing an rfc and voting is simple enough, you can do it
>   from your browser. I'm not sure that we could keep that way if we would
>   switch to jekyll (how would voting work? pushing a line addition
> to the rfc
>   itself?)
>
> If somebody really interested, there are plugins for dokuwiki for
> advanced/automatic listing pages from a given namespace, and it is possible
> to store meta information for the wiki pages, where we could store all of
> the rfc infos like status, author, etc. and we could put together a
> plugin/patch for using that meta information for rendering the rfc
> startpage.
>
> --
> Ferenc Kovács
> @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu

I agree completely. This is the right way to go, in my opinion (using
the plugins for dokuwiki).

Creating a new system is only bound to introduce new problems even if
it does solve the existing ones. Not to mention the existing problem
is rather simple and limited in scope given that the number of people
currently proposing RFCs and with access to that part of the wiki
aren't huge or unmanageable right now.

Lets focus on effective solutions without introducing more potential for error.

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