Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))
Am 05.06.2011 22:05, schrieb Zeev Suraski: - There wasn't sufficient time, or nearly any time at all - between when Brian pulled it off the attic, and when a vote was called. If my proposal is accepted, there'll have to be at least two weeks between when a clearly marked [RFC] email hits internals@, and when a vote is called. - There wasn't a clearly marked, separate [VOTE] email. - There wasn't a clear or easy way of voting. - No voting period was announced, instead, people were told to stop mess around and go vote. - The author of the RFC wasn't actively involved in the whole process (as far as I could tell); There was no official replacement proposer. These are all valid points. I'd still like to hear from others what they think about my proposal. If your proposal addresses the issue mentioned above: +1. Haven't had the time yet to read through it again, sorry. -- Sebastian BergmannCo-Founder and Principal Consultant http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://thePHP.cc/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: I'd to go with a 60% for language syntax, 50+1 for new exts or sapis. Other question is who can vote. For one, I like to have external people being able to vote, like frameworks/apps lead developers as well as @php.net in general (docs people at the same level than core devs, no diff). I have a little proposition here. I'm not —at least currently— known for any app or framework, but I'd like my voice to count, that is, if and only if the rest of the community thinks I make sane arguments that are worth considering. I'm perfectly aware that the fame one could gain from taking production code to visible success should be an indicator of an educated opinion, however, I think this might lead to a closed group who can vote, and I like the openness of this community, even if the general process is chaotic, it still gets the warm and fuzzy feeling of an open source community. OTOH, if a completely open group's votes were all considered, the final decision could just end up being a matter of numbers outnumbering other numbers. If I get it right, this is the current problem. So my proposal is that the voting privilege could be given on the basis of a *web of trust*, and if I'm not mistaken this is a little like what the concept of karma works here (I'm fairly new here). Not sure if there should be a voting to elect voters or if it could/should be something more lax, but I don't think the requirement to vote should be fame. Best regards, David
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:27 PM, dukeofgaming dukeofgam...@gmail.com wrote: I have a little proposition here. I'm not —at least currently— known for any app or framework, but I'd like my voice to count, that is, if and only if the rest of the community thinks I make sane arguments that are worth considering. I'm perfectly aware that the fame one could gain from taking production code to visible success should be an indicator of an educated opinion, however, I think this might lead to a closed group who can vote, and I like the openness of this community, even if the general process is chaotic, it still gets the warm and fuzzy feeling of an open source community. OTOH, if a completely open group's votes were all considered, the final decision could just end up being a matter of numbers outnumbering other numbers. If I get it right, this is the current problem. So my proposal is that the voting privilege could be given on the basis of a *web of trust*, and if I'm not mistaken this is a little like what the concept of karma works here (I'm fairly new here). Not sure if there should be a voting to elect voters or if it could/should be something more lax, but I don't think the requirement to vote should be fame. I'm similarly placed (as are many here I think), in the sense that I have not done any internals work and I am not one of the lead devs for a well-known project. Much as I think my opinions are great, I don't believe we should have a vote or, if we do, that it shouldn't count for as much as others', for the following reasons: - Long-term commitment: we want people voting who (1) know the history of past PHP discussions on topics and why they were rejected or postponed, (2) understand the PHP way, and (3) have shown commitment to *maintaining* PHP - Perspective: developing *with* PHP is not the same as developing *for* PHP internals. Feasibility, interoperability, maintenance concerns, and more are things that, as long as I've read the list, are often misunderstood or downplayed by people who develop *with* PHP and want a shiny new feature (including me). - Unified vision: we want people who are taking the whole PHP picture into account to be the ones doing the voting. Much of the volume on the list is very narrowly focused - this is a good thing for discussion of specific features, but a bad thing for picking which features to include in PHP. So, I would advocate a white list of core devs for formal voting (of which, for example, I would not be a member). I think this mailing list has grown sufficiently that public opinion can be gauged from here: everyone can write their opinion without giving them voting privileges. If you haven't already, I recommend you read the (incredibly long) discussions from last summer on type-hinting. They convinced me that sometimes a feature that sounds good is simply not a good fit for PHP for reasons which many did not (still do not?) understand. Chad Fulton -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))
On 2011-06-06, Chad Fulton chadful...@gmail.com wrote: So, I would advocate a white list of core devs for formal voting (of which, for example, I would not be a member). I think this mailing list has grown sufficiently that public opinion can be gauged from here: everyone can write their opinion without giving them voting privileges. If you haven't already, I recommend you read the (incredibly long) discussions from last summer on type-hinting. They convinced me that sometimes a feature that sounds good is simply not a good fit for PHP for reasons which many did not (still do not?) understand. I think your analysis is great. That said, I think if this is the route ultimately taken, any time an RFC is voted out, a summary of the _technical_ reasons for denying it should be provided. Usually there are very good ones -- but this information can be invaluable to anybody who may want to ressurect the RFC in the future to ensure they don't hit the same pitfalls. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Project Lead| matt...@zend.com Zend Framework | http://framework.zend.com/ PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
