RE: Lucene index on NFS
> (a) Accessing index files over NFS from a "single" physical process on a > single computer is safe and can be made to work. To add: This means writing only. Reading is fine from as many threads as you like - and using MMapDirectory for best performance. The problem with writing is that locking of index does not work with NFS (see my other mail). So use one server (ideally one that has the file system locally) and write your index. On the other servers which are using the same filesystem (which is local to the writer), you can use NFS to access to the writing server. Uwe - Uwe Schindler H.-H.-Meier-Allee 63, D-28213 Bremen http://www.thetaphi.de eMail: u...@thetaphi.de > -Original Message- > From: Jong Kim [mailto:jong.luc...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 5:20 PM > To: java-user@lucene.apache.org > Subject: Re: Lucene index on NFS > > OK, so it sounds like I'm hearing that > > (a) Accessing index files over NFS from a "single" physical process on a > single > computer is safe and can be made to work. > > (b) Accessing index files over NFS from "multiple" processes/machines might be > problematic > > (c) In all cases, the performance would be lesser over NFS Thanks /Jong On > Tue, > Oct 2, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Tommaso Teofili > wrote: > > > Ok, that saves you from concurrency issue, but in my experience is > > just much slower than local file system, so still NFS can be used but > > with some tradeoff on performance. > > > > My 2 cents, > > Tommaso > > > > 2012/10/2 Jong Kim > > > > > The setup is I have a home-grown server process that has exclusive > > > access to the index files. All reads and writes are done through > > > this server. No other process is reading the same index files > > > whether it's local or over NFS. > > > /Jong > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Ian Lea wrote: > > > > > > > I agree that reliability/corruption is not an issue. > > > > > > > > I would also put it that performance is likely to suffer, but > > > > that's not certain. A fast disk mounted over NFS can be quicker > > > > than a slow local disk. And how much do you care about > > > > performance? Maybe it would be fast enough over NFS to make the > > > > ease of deployment balance out lesser speed. > > > > > > > > What's the setup here? Will you be writing to an index on local > > > > disk of server A and reading it, over NFS, from server B (and C > > > > and ...) or what? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Ian. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Paul Libbrecht > > > wrote: > > > > > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > > > > > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason > > > > > to > > be > > > > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in > > > > which > > case > > > > you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). > > > > I've > > seen > > > > fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is > > > something > > > > I've never heard about. > > > > > > > > > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > > > > > > > >> Thank you all for reply. > > > > >> > > > > >> So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would > > suffer > > > > >> rather significantly when the index files are accessed over > > > > >> NFS. But > > > how > > > > >> about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? > > > > Isn't > > > > >> there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as > > index > > > > file > > > > >> corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete > > > semantics, > > > > >> etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is > > > > >> it > > > > strictly > > > > >> just a performance issue? > > > > >> > > > > >> /Jong > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht > &
Re: Lucene index on NFS
OK, so it sounds like I'm hearing that (a) Accessing index files over NFS from a "single" physical process on a single computer is safe and can be made to work. (b) Accessing index files over NFS from "multiple" processes/machines might be problematic (c) In all cases, the performance would be lesser over NFS Thanks /Jong On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Tommaso Teofili wrote: > Ok, that saves you from concurrency issue, but in my experience is just > much slower than local file system, so still NFS can be used but with some > tradeoff on performance. > > My 2 cents, > Tommaso > > 2012/10/2 Jong Kim > > > The setup is I have a home-grown server process that has exclusive access > > to the index files. All reads and writes are done through this server. No > > other process is reading the same index files whether it's local or over > > NFS. > > /Jong > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Ian Lea wrote: > > > > > I agree that reliability/corruption is not an issue. > > > > > > I would also put it that performance is likely to suffer, but that's > > > not certain. A fast disk mounted over NFS can be quicker than a slow > > > local disk. And how much do you care about performance? Maybe it > > > would be fast enough over NFS to make the ease of deployment balance > > > out lesser speed. > > > > > > What's the setup here? Will you be writing to an index on local disk > > > of server A and reading it, over NFS, from server B (and C and ...) or > > > what? > > > > > > -- > > > Ian. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Paul Libbrecht > > wrote: > > > > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > > > > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to > be > > > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which > case > > > you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've > seen > > > fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is > > something > > > I've never heard about. > > > > > > > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > > > > > >> Thank you all for reply. > > > >> > > > >> So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would > suffer > > > >> rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But > > how > > > >> about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? > > > Isn't > > > >> there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as > index > > > file > > > >> corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete > > semantics, > > > >> etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it > > > strictly > > > >> just a performance issue? > > > >> > > > >> /Jong > > > >> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least > four > > in > > > >>> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd > discourage > > > this > > > >>> as much as possible! > > > >>> > > > >>> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à > la > > > solr > > > >>> should also be considered) > > > >>> > > > >>> paul > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > > > >>> > > > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus > > local > > > >>> disks. > > > > > > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine > > on > > > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly > > if > > > you have a lot of modifications to the index. > > > > > > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > > > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ian. > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein < > > vfunst...@gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > > How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > > > >>> performance? > > > > You could probably write a simple test that compares search and > > write > > > > speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision > based > > > on > > > >>> the > > > > results. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section > > > 2.11.2 > > > >> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that > there > > > are > > > >> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file > > system > > > >> including NFS. > > > >> > > > >> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering > if > > > >>> there has > > > >> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this > > issue > > > >>> been > > > >> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that > make >
Re: Lucene index on NFS
John, Are you indicating that later Lucene releases might have a config setting that can control the write I/O timeout? If so, do you happen to know where it is or how to set it? I did quick Googling, but all I get back is the write lock timeout which is set to one second by default. Thanks /Jong On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Nader, John P wrote: > We've been in production on Lucene over NFS for about 4 years now. Though > we've had performance issues related to NFS (similar to those mentioned on > this thread), we've only seen some reliability issues. Index writing I/O > timeout exceptions are the primary issue. We've addressed these by > implementing retry logic. This kept transactional consistency and avoided > corruption. I can't recall specifically where these timeouts occurred, > but I do remember that on our version of Lucene at the time (3.0.2) the > timeout was not configurable, and defaulted to 5 seconds. Had it been > configurable, we could have reduced how frequently we needed to rollback > and retry. > > On another point, NFS performance can be greatly enhanced with servers > that have extra memory for mapping the index files. We found after > initial warmup and loading of Lucene that queries performance very well > since most of the data needed to execute them is cached locally. > > Also, keep in mind that local disk is not a free ride either. This takes > you down data replication. You end up repeating indexing once per > replica. You also may have to move the indices around as you > add/remove/restart nodes. We are moving to this architecture with a new > product, so I am just now starting to understand the trade-offs. > > Hope that helps. > > -John > > > > > On 10/2/12 8:01 AM, "Jong Kim" wrote: > > >Thank you all for reply. > > > >So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > >rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how > >about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? Isn't > >there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index file > >corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, > >etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it strictly > >just a performance issue? > > > >/Jong > >On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > > > >> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in > >> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage > >>this > >> as much as possible! > >> > >> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la > >>solr > >> should also be considered) > >> > >> paul > >> > >> > >> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > >> > >> > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local > >> disks. > >> > > >> > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on > >> > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if > >> > you have a lot of modifications to the index. > >> > > >> > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > >> > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Ian. > >> > > >> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein > >> wrote: > >> >> How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > >> performance? > >> >> You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write > >> >> speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based > >>on > >> the > >> >> results. > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim > >>wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Hi, > >> >>> > >> >>> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section > >>2.11.2 > >> >>> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there > >>are > >> >>> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system > >> >>> including NFS. > >> >>> > >> >>> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if > >> there has > >> >>> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue > >> been > >> >>> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make > >>this > >> >>> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > >> >>> > >> >>> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project > >>heavily > >> >>> depends on the feasibility of this. > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks > >> >>> /Jong > >> >>> > >> > > >> > - > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >> > > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >> > >> > > > --
Re: Lucene index on NFS
We've been in production on Lucene over NFS for about 4 years now. Though we've had performance issues related to NFS (similar to those mentioned on this thread), we've only seen some reliability issues. Index writing I/O timeout exceptions are the primary issue. We've addressed these by implementing retry logic. This kept transactional consistency and avoided corruption. I can't recall specifically where these timeouts occurred, but I do remember that on our version of Lucene at the time (3.0.2) the timeout was not configurable, and defaulted to 5 seconds. Had it been configurable, we could have reduced how frequently we needed to rollback and retry. On another point, NFS performance can be greatly enhanced with servers that have extra memory for mapping the index files. We found after initial warmup and loading of Lucene that queries performance very well since most of the data needed to execute them is cached locally. Also, keep in mind that local disk is not a free ride either. This takes you down data replication. You end up repeating indexing once per replica. You also may have to move the indices around as you add/remove/restart nodes. We are moving to this architecture with a new product, so I am just now starting to understand the trade-offs. Hope that helps. -John On 10/2/12 8:01 AM, "Jong Kim" wrote: >Thank you all for reply. > >So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer >rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how >about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? Isn't >there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index file >corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, >etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it strictly >just a performance issue? > >/Jong >On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > >> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in >> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage >>this >> as much as possible! >> >> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la >>solr >> should also be considered) >> >> paul >> >> >> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : >> >> > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local >> disks. >> > >> > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on >> > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if >> > you have a lot of modifications to the index. >> > >> > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the >> > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Ian. >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein >> wrote: >> >> How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing >> performance? >> >> You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write >> >> speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based >>on >> the >> >> results. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim >>wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section >>2.11.2 >> >>> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there >>are >> >>> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system >> >>> including NFS. >> >>> >> >>> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if >> there has >> >>> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue >> been >> >>> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make >>this >> >>> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? >> >>> >> >>> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project >>heavily >> >>> depends on the feasibility of this. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks >> >>> /Jong >> >>> >> > >> > - >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >> > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org >> > >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org
Re: Lucene index on NFS
Ok, that saves you from concurrency issue, but in my experience is just much slower than local file system, so still NFS can be used but with some tradeoff on performance. My 2 cents, Tommaso 2012/10/2 Jong Kim > The setup is I have a home-grown server process that has exclusive access > to the index files. All reads and writes are done through this server. No > other process is reading the same index files whether it's local or over > NFS. > /Jong > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Ian Lea wrote: > > > I agree that reliability/corruption is not an issue. > > > > I would also put it that performance is likely to suffer, but that's > > not certain. A fast disk mounted over NFS can be quicker than a slow > > local disk. And how much do you care about performance? Maybe it > > would be fast enough over NFS to make the ease of deployment balance > > out lesser speed. > > > > What's the setup here? Will you be writing to an index on local disk > > of server A and reading it, over NFS, from server B (and C and ...) or > > what? > > > > -- > > Ian. > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Paul Libbrecht > wrote: > > > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > > > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be > > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case > > you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen > > fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is > something > > I've never heard about. > > > > > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > > > >> Thank you all for reply. > > >> > > >> So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > > >> rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But > how > > >> about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? > > Isn't > > >> there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index > > file > > >> corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete > semantics, > > >> etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it > > strictly > > >> just a performance issue? > > >> > > >> /Jong > > >> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four > in > > >>> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage > > this > > >>> as much as possible! > > >>> > > >>> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la > > solr > > >>> should also be considered) > > >>> > > >>> paul > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > > >>> > > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus > local > > >>> disks. > > > > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine > on > > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly > if > > you have a lot of modifications to the index. > > > > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > > > > > > -- > > Ian. > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein < > vfunst...@gmail.com> > > >>> wrote: > > > How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > > >>> performance? > > > You could probably write a simple test that compares search and > write > > > speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based > > on > > >>> the > > > results. > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section > > 2.11.2 > > >> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there > > are > > >> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file > system > > >> including NFS. > > >> > > >> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if > > >>> there has > > >> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this > issue > > >>> been > > >> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make > > this > > >> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > > >> > > >> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project > > heavily > > >> depends on the feasibility of this. > > >> > > >> Thanks > > >> /Jong > > >> > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> - > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubs
Re: Lucene index on NFS
Uwe, Thanks for the detailed information. Are you aware of an existing implementation of the IndexDeletionPolicy interface that is "known" to work reliably with NFS? /Jong On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Uwe Schindler wrote: > There are no real issues with NFS regarding safety of the data. The > problem with NFS is the following (maybe it is fixed in NFS4, I have no > idea): > Lucene deletes index files while they are in use, which is perfectly fine > for local file systems (because the inode is still alive, although it is no > longer appearing in directory listing). Unfortunately the deletes of those > index files are not visible to the directory listing asap when using NFS; > also newly added files are not always showing up in the directory listing > once created. This causes problems with Lucene like file not found > exceptions. Also the index directory locking does not work (it times out, > because NativeFSLockFactory does not work with NFS - which is a somehow a > bug in NFS). > > To use it with NFS make sure: > - Use a custom deletion policy on IndexWriter, so unused files are not > deleted asap ( > https://lucene.apache.org/core/3_6_1/api/all/org/apache/lucene/index/IndexDeletionPolicy.html > ) > - Use SimpleFSLockFactory > > Uwe > > - > Uwe Schindler > H.-H.-Meier-Allee 63, D-28213 Bremen > http://www.thetaphi.de > eMail: u...@thetaphi.de > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Paul Libbrecht [mailto:p...@hoplahup.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:45 PM > > To: java-user@lucene.apache.org > > Subject: Re: Lucene index on NFS > > > > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be > > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case > you'd > > get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen > fairly large > > infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is something I've never > > heard about. > > > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > > > Paul > > > > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > > > Thank you all for reply. > > > > > > So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > > > rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But > > > how about reliability and robustness (which seems even more > > > important)? Isn't there any increased possibility for intermittent > > > errors such as index file corruption (due to cache inconsistency, > > > difference in delete semantics, > > > etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it > > > strictly just a performance issue? > > > > > > /Jong > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht > wrote: > > > > > >> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four > > >> in writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd > > >> discourage this as much as possible! > > >> > > >> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la > > >> solr should also be considered) > > >> > > >> paul > > >> > > >> > > >> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > > >> > > >>> You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus > > >>> local > > >> disks. > > >>> > > >>> My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine > > >>> on NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, > > >>> particularly if you have a lot of modifications to the index. > > >>> > > >>> You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > > >>> javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Ian. > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein > > >>> > > >> wrote: > > >>>> How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > > >> performance? > > >>>> You could probably write a simple test that compares search and > > >>>> write speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision > > >>>> based on > > >> the > > >>>> results
Re: Lucene index on NFS
The setup is I have a home-grown server process that has exclusive access to the index files. All reads and writes are done through this server. No other process is reading the same index files whether it's local or over NFS. /Jong On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Ian Lea wrote: > I agree that reliability/corruption is not an issue. > > I would also put it that performance is likely to suffer, but that's > not certain. A fast disk mounted over NFS can be quicker than a slow > local disk. And how much do you care about performance? Maybe it > would be fast enough over NFS to make the ease of deployment balance > out lesser speed. > > What's the setup here? Will you be writing to an index on local disk > of server A and reading it, over NFS, from server B (and C and ...) or > what? > > -- > Ian. > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case > you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen > fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is something > I've never heard about. > > > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > > > Paul > > > > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > >> Thank you all for reply. > >> > >> So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > >> rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how > >> about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? > Isn't > >> there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index > file > >> corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, > >> etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it > strictly > >> just a performance issue? > >> > >> /Jong > >> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht > wrote: > >> > >>> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in > >>> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage > this > >>> as much as possible! > >>> > >>> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la > solr > >>> should also be considered) > >>> > >>> paul > >>> > >>> > >>> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > >>> > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local > >>> disks. > > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if > you have a lot of modifications to the index. > > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > > > -- > Ian. > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein > >>> wrote: > > How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > >>> performance? > > You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write > > speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based > on > >>> the > > results. > > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim > wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section > 2.11.2 > >> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there > are > >> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system > >> including NFS. > >> > >> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if > >>> there has > >> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue > >>> been > >> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make > this > >> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > >> > >> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project > heavily > >> depends on the feasibility of this. > >> > >> Thanks > >> /Jong > >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >>> > >>> > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h..
Re: Lucene index on NFS
My Lucene index is accessed by multiple threads in a single process. /Jong On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case > you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen > fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is something > I've never heard about. > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > Paul > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > Thank you all for reply. > > > > So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > > rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how > > about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? Isn't > > there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index > file > > corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, > > etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it strictly > > just a performance issue? > > > > /Jong > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht > wrote: > > > >> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in > >> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage > this > >> as much as possible! > >> > >> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la > solr > >> should also be considered) > >> > >> paul > >> > >> > >> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > >> > >>> You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local > >> disks. > >>> > >>> My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on > >>> NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if > >>> you have a lot of modifications to the index. > >>> > >>> You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > >>> javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ian. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein > >> wrote: > How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > >> performance? > You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write > speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on > >> the > results. > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section > 2.11.2 > > "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there > are > > issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system > > including NFS. > > > > I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if > >> there has > > been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue > >> been > > addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make > this > > possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > > > > Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project > heavily > > depends on the feasibility of this. > > > > Thanks > > /Jong > > > >>> > >>> - > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >
RE: Lucene index on NFS
There are no real issues with NFS regarding safety of the data. The problem with NFS is the following (maybe it is fixed in NFS4, I have no idea): Lucene deletes index files while they are in use, which is perfectly fine for local file systems (because the inode is still alive, although it is no longer appearing in directory listing). Unfortunately the deletes of those index files are not visible to the directory listing asap when using NFS; also newly added files are not always showing up in the directory listing once created. This causes problems with Lucene like file not found exceptions. Also the index directory locking does not work (it times out, because NativeFSLockFactory does not work with NFS - which is a somehow a bug in NFS). To use it with NFS make sure: - Use a custom deletion policy on IndexWriter, so unused files are not deleted asap (https://lucene.apache.org/core/3_6_1/api/all/org/apache/lucene/index/IndexDeletionPolicy.html) - Use SimpleFSLockFactory Uwe - Uwe Schindler H.-H.-Meier-Allee 63, D-28213 Bremen http://www.thetaphi.de eMail: u...@thetaphi.de > -Original Message- > From: Paul Libbrecht [mailto:p...@hoplahup.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:45 PM > To: java-user@lucene.apache.org > Subject: Re: Lucene index on NFS > > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case you'd > get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen fairly > large > infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is something I've never > heard about. > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > Paul > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > > > Thank you all for reply. > > > > So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > > rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But > > how about reliability and robustness (which seems even more > > important)? Isn't there any increased possibility for intermittent > > errors such as index file corruption (due to cache inconsistency, > > difference in delete semantics, > > etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it > > strictly just a performance issue? > > > > /Jong > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > > > >> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four > >> in writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd > >> discourage this as much as possible! > >> > >> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la > >> solr should also be considered) > >> > >> paul > >> > >> > >> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > >> > >>> You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus > >>> local > >> disks. > >>> > >>> My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine > >>> on NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, > >>> particularly if you have a lot of modifications to the index. > >>> > >>> You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > >>> javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ian. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein > >>> > >> wrote: > >>>> How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > >> performance? > >>>> You could probably write a simple test that compares search and > >>>> write speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision > >>>> based on > >> the > >>>> results. > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section > >>>>> 2.11.2 "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains > >>>>> that there are issues related to accessing a Lucene index across > >>>>> remote file system including NFS. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if > >> there has > >>>>> been any work done to solve or mitigate t
Re: Lucene index on NFS
I agree that reliability/corruption is not an issue. I would also put it that performance is likely to suffer, but that's not certain. A fast disk mounted over NFS can be quicker than a slow local disk. And how much do you care about performance? Maybe it would be fast enough over NFS to make the ease of deployment balance out lesser speed. What's the setup here? Will you be writing to an index on local disk of server A and reading it, over NFS, from server B (and C and ...) or what? -- Ian. On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. > Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be > unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case > you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen > fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is something > I've never heard about. > > Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? > > Paul > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > >> Thank you all for reply. >> >> So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer >> rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how >> about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? Isn't >> there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index file >> corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, >> etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it strictly >> just a performance issue? >> >> /Jong >> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: >> >>> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in >>> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage this >>> as much as possible! >>> >>> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la solr >>> should also be considered) >>> >>> paul >>> >>> >>> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : >>> You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local >>> disks. My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if you have a lot of modifications to the index. You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. -- Ian. On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein >>> wrote: > How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing >>> performance? > You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write > speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on >>> the > results. > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 >> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are >> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system >> including NFS. >> >> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if >>> there has >> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue >>> been >> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this >> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? >> >> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily >> depends on the feasibility of this. >> >> Thanks >> /Jong >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org >>> >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org >>> >>> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org
Re: Lucene index on NFS
I doubt NFS is an unreliable file-system. Lucene uses normal random access to files and this has no reason to be unreliable unless bad things such as network drops happen (in which case you'd get direct failures or timeouts rather than corruption). I've seen fairly large infrastructures being based on NFS and corruption is something I've never heard about. Note: no concurrent access to a lucene index, right? Paul Le 2 oct. 2012 à 14:01, Jong Kim a écrit : > Thank you all for reply. > > So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer > rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how > about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? Isn't > there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index file > corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, > etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it strictly > just a performance issue? > > /Jong > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > >> My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in >> writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage this >> as much as possible! >> >> (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la solr >> should also be considered) >> >> paul >> >> >> Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : >> >>> You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local >> disks. >>> >>> My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on >>> NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if >>> you have a lot of modifications to the index. >>> >>> You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the >>> javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian. >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein >> wrote: How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing >> performance? You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on >> the results. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim wrote: > Hi, > > According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 > "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are > issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system > including NFS. > > I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if >> there has > been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue >> been > addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this > possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > > Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily > depends on the feasibility of this. > > Thanks > /Jong > >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org >>> >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org
Re: Lucene index on NFS
Thank you all for reply. So it soudns like it is a known fact that the performance would suffer rather significantly when the index files are accessed over NFS. But how about reliability and robustness (which seems even more important)? Isn't there any increased possibility for intermittent errors such as index file corruption (due to cache inconsistency, difference in delete semantics, etc.) when using NFS? Has anyone run into such trouble? Or is it strictly just a performance issue? /Jong On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Paul Libbrecht wrote: > My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in > writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage this > as much as possible! > > (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la solr > should also be considered) > > paul > > > Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > > > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local > disks. > > > > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on > > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if > > you have a lot of modifications to the index. > > > > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > > > > > > -- > > Ian. > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein > wrote: > >> How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing > performance? > >> You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write > >> speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on > the > >> results. > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 > >>> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are > >>> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system > >>> including NFS. > >>> > >>> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if > there has > >>> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue > been > >>> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this > >>> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > >>> > >>> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily > >>> depends on the feasibility of this. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> /Jong > >>> > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > >
Re: Lucene index on NFS
My experience in the Lucene 1.x times were a factor of at least four in writing to NFS and about two when reading from there. I'd discourage this as much as possible! (rsync is way more your friend for transporting and replication à la solr should also be considered) paul Le 2 oct. 2012 à 11:10, Ian Lea a écrit : > You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local disks. > > My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on > NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if > you have a lot of modifications to the index. > > You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the > javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. > > > -- > Ian. > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein wrote: >> How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing performance? >> You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write >> speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on the >> results. >> >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 >>> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are >>> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system >>> including NFS. >>> >>> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if there has >>> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue been >>> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this >>> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? >>> >>> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily >>> depends on the feasibility of this. >>> >>> Thanks >>> /Jong >>> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org
Re: Lucene index on NFS
You'll certainly need to factor in the performance of NFS versus local disks. My experience is that smallish low activity indexes work just fine on NFS, but large high activity indexes are not so good, particularly if you have a lot of modifications to the index. You may want to install a custom IndexDeletionPolicy. See the javadocs for details with specific reference to NFS. -- Ian. On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Vitaly Funstein wrote: > How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing performance? > You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write > speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on the > results. > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 >> "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are >> issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system >> including NFS. >> >> I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if there has >> been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue been >> addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this >> possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? >> >> Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily >> depends on the feasibility of this. >> >> Thanks >> /Jong >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-h...@lucene.apache.org
Re: Lucene index on NFS
How tolerant is your project of decreased search and indexing performance? You could probably write a simple test that compares search and write speeds of local and NFS-mounted indexes and make the decision based on the results. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Jong Kim wrote: > Hi, > > According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 > "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are > issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system > including NFS. > > I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if there has > been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue been > addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this > possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? > > Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily > depends on the feasibility of this. > > Thanks > /Jong >
Lucene index on NFS
Hi, According to the Lucene In Action (Second Edition), the section 2.11.2 "Accessing an index over a remote file system" explains that there are issues related to accessing a Lucene index across remote file system including NFS. I'm particuarly interested in NFS compatibility, and wondering if there has been any work done to solve or mitigate this problem. Has this issue been addressed? If not, are there some reliable work-arounds that make this possible at the expense of some sacrifice in other areas? Any information would be greatly appreciated, since my project heavily depends on the feasibility of this. Thanks /Jong