Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
> The rationale was to make default a modifier instead of even more special
> syntax than it needs to be.
The reasoning is interesting, even though I disagree that it would cause
even more special syntax. The syntax exists since Java 5 already:
String foo() default "";// default value syntax for annotations
String foo() default {...}; // (old) default method syntax
String default foo() {...}; // (new) default method syntax (!?)
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Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
I understand but you must realise that in terms of the actual grammar there
would be fewer changes from Java 7 to Java 8 with default as an attribute.
I hope IDEA supports this change soon (or already?) so I can continue
playing with the benefit of an IDE.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Simon Ochsenreither <
simon.ochsenreit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The rationale was to make default a modifier instead of even more special
>> syntax than it needs to be.
>
>
> The reasoning is interesting, even though I disagree that it would cause
> even more special syntax. The syntax exists since Java 5 already:
>
> String foo() default "";// default value syntax for annotations
> String foo() default {...}; // (old) default method syntax
> String default foo() {...}; // (new) default method syntax (!?)
>
> --
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>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
I like the default placement.
The Mapper parameter bit just seems inexplicable, though. Principle of
most surprise?
On 11/14/2012 7:27 PM, Ricky Clarkson wrote:
The rationale was to make default a modifier instead of even more
special syntax than it needs to be.
The parameter order isn't very important to me, just a mild irritation
that they seem to want to do it the exact opposite way to everything
that already exists.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Simon Ochsenreither
mailto:simon.ochsenreit...@gmail.com>>
wrote:
The default method syntax will change¹ from
public void method() default { foo(); }
to
public default void method() { foo(); }
I haven't found any reasonable rationale for it on the mailing
list (or elsewhere).
I wonder why they changed it to be inconsistent with Java's
existing default value syntax.
They also changed around the type parameter order to "align better
with EG discussions"²:
So basically having a functional interface like Mapper will
now mean "it maps to A from B" and not "it maps from A to B" anymore.
A reasonable explanation would be that it follows the order of
methods definitions. But on the other hand, that would be
inconsistent with both the definition of lambdas itself (A -> B)
as well inconsistent with the flow of chained operations like
list.map(...).filter(...) ...
Ideas/opinions?
Just NIH? Or some evil master plan to ship with requested
features, but prevent widespread usage by making them worse than
necessary (Optional comes to mind...)? Just joking. :-)
¹
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2012-November/006482.html
²
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2012-November/006461.html
further discussion in
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-libs-spec-experts/2012-November/000314.html
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Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
I'm not sure that this is a reasonable explanation. I don't believe that the designers of one of the most popular language on this planet think that saving the compiler/IDE implementors a few hours¹ is a more important than their actual users, which have to deal with that particular choice for the rest of Java's life. ¹ Compared to the actual changes required for default methods, the idea that they try to save time on the grammar is pretty ... weird. Implementing the grammar addition took me less than 20 minutes, so I don't think that people who deal with this daily will have any issues with it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/LDeCrAVNoWAJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
Perhaps I think differently to most, but I believe having fewer rules to follow when reading and writing code is better than having more. It might not make much difference in this case but I think it's a reasonable criterium when adding language features. Also, bear in mind there is the possibility post-Java 8 of static defenders (final defenders too?), and you might like to be able to see those at a glance instead of having the word 'static' and 'default' separated by the whole method signature. On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Simon Ochsenreither < simon.ochsenreit...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not sure that this is a reasonable explanation. I don't believe that > the designers of one of the most popular language on this planet think that > saving the compiler/IDE implementors a few hours¹ is a more important than > their actual users, which have to deal with that particular choice for the > rest of Java's life. > > ¹ Compared to the actual changes required for default methods, the idea > that they try to save time on the grammar is pretty ... weird. Implementing > the grammar addition took me less than 20 minutes, so I don't think that > people who deal with this daily will have any issues with it. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Java Posse" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/LDeCrAVNoWAJ. > > To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
I still fail to see how it would amount to less rules. My disagreement comes exactly from the realization that the inconsistency creates more rules to remember, not less. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/YH6sTmaPLzwJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
I must admit, the choice of the default value syntax for annotations felt
less than intuitive to me when I first saw it.
One can get used to it, but it still feels weird...
New proposal for default method syntax kind of feel better aligned to the
most of the language, where all the accessor modifier annotations of a
method preceed the type and name of the field/method/type...
neljapäev, 15. november 2012 3:39.02 UTC+2 kirjutas Simon Ochsenreither:
>
>
> The rationale was to make default a modifier instead of even more special
>> syntax than it needs to be.
>
>
> The reasoning is interesting, even though I disagree that it would cause
> even more special syntax. The syntax exists since Java 5 already:
>
> String foo() default "";// default value syntax for annotations
> String foo() default {...}; // (old) default method syntax
> String default foo() {...}; // (new) default method syntax (!?)
>
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
On Thursday, November 15, 2012 8:22:40 AM UTC+1, Roland Tepp wrote: > I must admit, the choice of the default value syntax for annotations felt > less than intuitive to me when I first saw it. > One can get used to it, but it still feels weird... > > New proposal for default method syntax kind of feel better aligned to the > most of the language, where all the accessor modifier annotations of a > method preceed the type and name of the field/method/type... > Agree with that. The prepended modifier list is a well established pattern, it's the annotation syntax that stands out from the norm. Java's annotation "default" is clearly not a mere modifier/marker but a somewhat non-orthogonal construct burnt into the compiler front-end, If Java had properties and/or named parameters, this could've been implemented more elegantly on top of existing language constructs instead (the Enum was more successful at doing this, although it suffers from forward-referencing hickups). However, Josh Bloch could clearly not copy all of C#'s attributtes given the difference between the two languages. Alas, it seems like the "default" keyword will carry 3 different semantics in Java 8. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/CmqgnCx4XFQJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:39 AM, Casper Bang wrote: > However, Josh Bloch could clearly not copy all of C#'s attributtes given > the difference between the two languages. Alas, it seems like the "default" > keyword will carry 3 different semantics in Java 8. How so? In all three cases, it specifies a default value (in a switch, in an interface and in an annotation). Seems semantically consistent to me. Much more so than, say, final. -- Cédric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
On Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:59:16 PM UTC+1, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote: > > How so? In all three cases, it specifies a default value (in a switch, in > an interface and in an annotation). > > Seems semantically consistent to me. Much more so than, say, final. > > Just cautious of overloaded context-sensitive keywords, although I agree it's not as bad as final. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/9buc5BWnO8oJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
After basically everyone on lambda-dev/lambda-libs-spec-experts tried to tell Goetz to call functions functions, I looked looked into the implementation and I guess, I can understand their concern now: java.util.function: --- BiBlock.java BiFunction.java BiPredicate.java BinaryOperator.java Block.java Combiner.java DoubleBinaryOperator.java DoubleFunction.java DoubleUnaryOperator.java FlatMapper.java Function.java Functions.java IntBinaryOperator.java IntFunction.java IntSupplier.java IntUnaryOperator.java LongBinaryOperator.java LongFunction.java LongUnaryOperator.java Predicate.java Predicates.java Supplier.java UnaryOperator.java (http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/stream/primitive/) Not only that the naming seems to be all over the place and hard to remember (yes, names actually matter, read on ...), the manual specialization looks extremely scary. Why are they trying to solve a JVM/JIT problem (assuming Generics will never be improved) in a library in such an arcane and error-prone way (why not use at least M4 macros like in *Buffer)? Another weird thing is that these specializations are NOT compatible with their more general implementation. So everywhere, where you'd want to define a lambda, a developer now needs to decide if you assign it to e. g. Function or to IntFunction. Even worse, there seems to be no right or wrong (as soon as your code is slightly generic on its input, you can't use the specialized functions anymore). If a developer used the first way and some library uses the second? Bad luck. If a developer used the second way and some library uses the first? Bad luck, too. Also scary: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/stream/primitive/ and (to a lesser amount) http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/stream/op/. Keep in mind, that classes are currently only specialized to int! So if they keep this approach, the amount of classes in primitive will quadruple (int, long, float, double). I really hope that Oracle comes up with an better approach, otherwise Java 8 will be the language will give both OOP *and* FP a bad name ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/h3N9iR664JgJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
Sorry, the first link should be http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/function/ ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/VOX1ColgsiUJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
This is good feedback, but why are you sending it here instead of lambda-dev? -- Cédric On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Simon Ochsenreither < simon.ochsenreit...@gmail.com> wrote: > After basically everyone on lambda-dev/lambda-libs-spec-experts tried to > tell Goetz to call functions functions, I looked looked into the > implementation and I guess, I can understand their concern now: > > java.util.function: > --- > BiBlock.java > BiFunction.java > BiPredicate.java > BinaryOperator.java > Block.java > Combiner.java > DoubleBinaryOperator.java > DoubleFunction.java > DoubleUnaryOperator.java > FlatMapper.java > Function.java > Functions.java > IntBinaryOperator.java > IntFunction.java > IntSupplier.java > IntUnaryOperator.java > LongBinaryOperator.java > LongFunction.java > LongUnaryOperator.java > Predicate.java > Predicates.java > Supplier.java > UnaryOperator.java > > ( > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/stream/primitive/ > ) > > Not only that the naming seems to be all over the place and hard to > remember (yes, names actually matter, read on ...), the manual > specialization looks extremely scary. Why are they trying to solve a > JVM/JIT problem (assuming Generics will never be improved) in a library in > such an arcane and error-prone way (why not use at least M4 macros like in > *Buffer)? > > Another weird thing is that these specializations are NOT compatible with > their more general implementation. So everywhere, where you'd want to > define a lambda, a developer now needs to decide if you assign it to e. g. > Function or to IntFunction. Even worse, there > seems to be no right or wrong (as soon as your code is slightly generic on > its input, you can't use the specialized functions anymore). > > If a developer used the first way and some library uses the second? Bad > luck. > If a developer used the second way and some library uses the first? Bad > luck, too. > > Also scary: > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/stream/primitive/and > (to a lesser amount) > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/stream/op/ > . > > Keep in mind, that classes are currently only specialized to int! So if > they keep this approach, the amount of classes in primitive will quadruple > (int, long, float, double). > > I really hope that Oracle comes up with an better approach, otherwise Java > 8 will be the language will give both OOP *and* FP a bad name ... > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Java Posse" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/h3N9iR664JgJ. > > To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
This is why we all argued for function types, i.e., int -> int doubleTheArgument = x -> x * 2; Brian thinks this causes a problem with overloading because of erasure, but I don't think that's as big a problem as having to name all these interfaces. It's relatively easy to avoid overloading. On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Simon Ochsenreither < simon.ochsenreit...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry, the first link should be > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/lambda/lambda/jdk/file/ba27872c81f8/src/share/classes/java/util/function/... > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
> Brian thinks this causes a problem with overloading because of erasure, > but I don't think that's as big a problem as having to name all these > interfaces. It's relatively easy to avoid overloading. > Amusing, considering that he also wants to name the methods of functional interfaces more inconsistently to make it easier to implement multiple functional interfaces (a requirement which has never arisen (nor posed to be an issue) in those languages which chose consistent names from the beginning), which wouldn't be a problem in the first case if there were a sane, lower-level interface for functions (which would also be great for interop which also multiple people mentioned on the mailing list.) Looks like they painted themselves into a very unfortunate language design corner by letting their fear of boxing/unboxing costs rule over correctness and simplicity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/tEGjg-ElFrkJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
On Friday, November 16, 2012 7:06:03 PM UTC+1, Simon Ochsenreither wrote: > > Looks like they painted themselves into a very unfortunate language design > corner by letting their fear of X costs rule over correctness and > simplicity. > At least they are consistent in doing so. :D I know of no other language which carries its warts as proudly as Java. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/s1BvARGBrIIJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Syntax for default methods and order of type parameters changes. Both to the worse?
Any idea why bitwise flags are used instead of nice enums ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/7KspnEKDMXoJ. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
