RE: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
You want it. Do it. Bill Burke Chief Architect JBoss Group, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of wonder sonic Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? Hello, Looking the source code of the 4.0.0alpha version, I noticed the presence of Together diagrams in the jboss.net/testsuite directory. Wouldn't it be useful to add such development documentation (UML diagrams, not only classes diagrams) to other modules? I think it could help new developers who wish to contribute. Best regards, WS ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
Well, it's a sort of answer I really appreciate (seriously). However, I think it should be detailed. -1- Where should those diagrams reside? in the same directories of the java files or in an other directory named diagrams (for example). -2- AFAIK, only the ones who have designed the different modules might create the best UML diagrams (activity, usecase...). I haven't the impertinence to say that I could do that! :) -3- A synchronization problem could occur for the developers who don't have such tools: modification of the source code whitout modification of the diagrams. -4- Perhaps some Together project files could be added? -5- I can personnaly create class diagrams for the JBoss modules. What format shall I use? wmf, gif, Together (v6)? WS --- Bill Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : You want it. Do it. Bill Burke Chief Architect JBoss Group, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of wonder sonic Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? Hello, Looking the source code of the 4.0.0alpha version, I noticed the presence of Together diagrams in the jboss.net/testsuite directory. Wouldn't it be useful to add such development documentation (UML diagrams, not only classes diagrams) to other modules? I think it could help new developers who wish to contribute. Best regards, WS ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
On 2002.12.14 14:01:45 -0500 wonder sonic wrote: Well, it's a sort of answer I really appreciate (seriously). However, I think it should be detailed. -1- Where should those diagrams reside? in the same directories of the java files or in an other directory named diagrams (for example). -2- AFAIK, only the ones who have designed the different modules might create the best UML diagrams (activity, usecase...). I haven't the impertinence to say that I could do that! :) -3- A synchronization problem could occur for the developers who don't have such tools: modification of the source code whitout modification of the diagrams. I think this is a really serious problem. I also think most developers don't think uml diagrams work very well for the kind of meta-programming done in a lot of the server core. I haven't tried, but would be happy if this was demonstrated to be wrong. -4- Perhaps some Together project files could be added? Who is going to keep them in sync? Out of date is worse than not there. -5- I can personnaly create class diagrams for the JBoss modules. What format shall I use? wmf, gif, Together (v6)? I suggest xmi using argo/poseidon. david jencks WS --- Bill Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : You want it. Do it. Bill Burke Chief Architect JBoss Group, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of wonder sonic Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? Hello, Looking the source code of the 4.0.0alpha version, I noticed the presence of Together diagrams in the jboss.net/testsuite directory. Wouldn't it be useful to add such development documentation (UML diagrams, not only classes diagrams) to other modules? I think it could help new developers who wish to contribute. Best regards, WS ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
--- David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On 2002.12.14 14:01:45 -0500 wonder sonic wrote: Well, it's a sort of answer I really appreciate (seriously). However, I think it should be detailed. -1- Where should those diagrams reside? in the same directories of the java files or in an other directory named diagrams (for example). -2- AFAIK, only the ones who have designed the different modules might create the best UML diagrams (activity, usecase...). I haven't the impertinence to say that I could do that! :) -3- A synchronization problem could occur for the developers who don't have such tools: modification of the source code whitout modification of the diagrams. I think this is a really serious problem. I also think most developers don't think uml diagrams work very well for the kind of meta-programming done in a lot of the server core. Could you please explain what you mean by meta-programming? I haven't tried, but would be happy if this was demonstrated to be wrong. In most cases, UML diagrams could help to communicate new developments design, explain *quickly* the dependencies between packages, classes and interfaces, show the logic of an algorithm... Moreover, the fact that UML is a graphical language reduces the explanation of a complex algorithm for example: - http://www.visualuml.com/Sample%20Diagrams/Fig%209-1%20Activity%20Diagram.jpg - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/f_and_m/html/vxfm7_topleveldiagram.gif - http://www.smartdraw.com/resources/centers/flowcharts/images/flowchart_deployment_example.gif -4- Perhaps some Together project files could be added? Who is going to keep them in sync? Out of date is worse than not there. Indeed! In fact, we can consider UML diagrams as a complement to javadoc. When a development is done, javadoc should be synchronized with it, UML diagrams should be synchronized the same way. The main problem is how can developers update UML diagrams? An open source tool would be welcome. -5- I can personnaly create class diagrams for the JBoss modules. What format shall I use? wmf, gif, Together (v6)? I suggest xmi using argo/poseidon. Yes, xmi is a standard for UML diagrams. But they only are useful to those who can use them with the right tool. I think an image format could be used too for those who don't have such tool. WS david jencks WS --- Bill Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : You want it. Do it. Bill Burke Chief Architect JBoss Group, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of wonder sonic Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? Hello, Looking the source code of the 4.0.0alpha version, I noticed the presence of Together diagrams in the jboss.net/testsuite directory. Wouldn't it be useful to add such development documentation (UML diagrams, not only classes diagrams) to other modules? I think it could help new developers who wish to contribute. Best regards, WS ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
On 2002.12.14 16:47:48 -0500 wonder sonic wrote: --- David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On 2002.12.14 14:01:45 -0500 wonder sonic wrote: Well, it's a sort of answer I really appreciate (seriously). However, I think it should be detailed. -1- Where should those diagrams reside? in the same directories of the java files or in an other directory named diagrams (for example). -2- AFAIK, only the ones who have designed the different modules might create the best UML diagrams (activity, usecase...). I haven't the impertinence to say that I could do that! :) -3- A synchronization problem could occur for the developers who don't have such tools: modification of the source code whitout modification of the diagrams. I think this is a really serious problem. I also think most developers don't think uml diagrams work very well for the kind of meta-programming done in a lot of the server core. Could you please explain what you mean by meta-programming? Basically interceptor based, reflective, or aspect oriented programming techniques. Do you think a uml diagram of say a transaction interceptor or a lock interceptor provides a useful explanation of what it does? I haven't seen any evidence that it does, but am very open to demonstrations. I haven't tried, but would be happy if this was demonstrated to be wrong. In most cases, UML diagrams could help to communicate new developments design, explain *quickly* the dependencies between packages, classes and interfaces, show the logic of an algorithm... Moreover, the fact that UML is a graphical language reduces the explanation of a complex algorithm for example: - http://www.visualuml.com/Sample%20Diagrams/Fig%209-1%20Activity%20Diagram.jpg - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/f_and_m/html/vxfm7_topleveldiagram.gif - http://www.smartdraw.com/resources/centers/flowcharts/images/flowchart_deployment_example.gif Personally I have found uml diagrams sometimes useful in organizing my own thinking but have never been able to communicate any useful ideas using them. -4- Perhaps some Together project files could be added? Who is going to keep them in sync? Out of date is worse than not there. Indeed! In fact, we can consider UML diagrams as a complement to javadoc. When a development is done, javadoc should be synchronized with it, UML diagrams should be synchronized the same way. Should covers a lot of territory here. Our javadocs are mostly missing and wrong. I think developers will have to find any such diagram very easy to create and very helpful in their own development process before you will find anyone making or updating them. I suspect this would only take off if the diagrams were the basis of some kind of code generation, such as done with uml2ejb. The main problem is how can developers update UML diagrams? An open source tool would be welcome. Thus my suggestion of argo (free, open source)/poseidon (commercial version of the same tool, with free community edition). -5- I can personnaly create class diagrams for the JBoss modules. What format shall I use? wmf, gif, Together (v6)? I suggest xmi using argo/poseidon. Yes, xmi is a standard for UML diagrams. But they only are useful to those who can use them with the right tool. I think an image format could be used too for those who don't have such tool. again, argo is completely free and poseidon has a free version. They are both pretty lightweight. I'll be interested to see what you come up with. thanks david jencks WS david jencks WS --- Bill Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : You want it. Do it. Bill Burke Chief Architect JBoss Group, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of wonder sonic Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? Hello, Looking the source code of the 4.0.0alpha version, I noticed the presence of Together diagrams in the jboss.net/testsuite directory. Wouldn't it be useful to add such development documentation (UML diagrams, not only classes diagrams) to other modules? I think it could help new developers who wish to contribute. Best regards, WS ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance
RE: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
There's some tool out there, forget the name JVision or something like that that allows you to specify java classes and it will suck up classes and create diagrams. UML is nice, but not necessary. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Jencks Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 6:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? On 2002.12.14 16:47:48 -0500 wonder sonic wrote: --- David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On 2002.12.14 14:01:45 -0500 wonder sonic wrote: Well, it's a sort of answer I really appreciate (seriously). However, I think it should be detailed. -1- Where should those diagrams reside? in the same directories of the java files or in an other directory named diagrams (for example). -2- AFAIK, only the ones who have designed the different modules might create the best UML diagrams (activity, usecase...). I haven't the impertinence to say that I could do that! :) -3- A synchronization problem could occur for the developers who don't have such tools: modification of the source code whitout modification of the diagrams. I think this is a really serious problem. I also think most developers don't think uml diagrams work very well for the kind of meta-programming done in a lot of the server core. Could you please explain what you mean by meta-programming? Basically interceptor based, reflective, or aspect oriented programming techniques. Do you think a uml diagram of say a transaction interceptor or a lock interceptor provides a useful explanation of what it does? I haven't seen any evidence that it does, but am very open to demonstrations. I haven't tried, but would be happy if this was demonstrated to be wrong. In most cases, UML diagrams could help to communicate new developments design, explain *quickly* the dependencies between packages, classes and interfaces, show the logic of an algorithm... Moreover, the fact that UML is a graphical language reduces the explanation of a complex algorithm for example: - http://www.visualuml.com/Sample%20Diagrams/Fig%209-1%20Activity%20 Diagram.jpg - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/f_and_m/html/vxfm7_topleve ldiagram.gif - http://www.smartdraw.com/resources/centers/flowcharts/images/flowc hart_deployment_example.gif Personally I have found uml diagrams sometimes useful in organizing my own thinking but have never been able to communicate any useful ideas using them. -4- Perhaps some Together project files could be added? Who is going to keep them in sync? Out of date is worse than not there. Indeed! In fact, we can consider UML diagrams as a complement to javadoc. When a development is done, javadoc should be synchronized with it, UML diagrams should be synchronized the same way. Should covers a lot of territory here. Our javadocs are mostly missing and wrong. I think developers will have to find any such diagram very easy to create and very helpful in their own development process before you will find anyone making or updating them. I suspect this would only take off if the diagrams were the basis of some kind of code generation, such as done with uml2ejb. The main problem is how can developers update UML diagrams? An open source tool would be welcome. Thus my suggestion of argo (free, open source)/poseidon (commercial version of the same tool, with free community edition). -5- I can personnaly create class diagrams for the JBoss modules. What format shall I use? wmf, gif, Together (v6)? I suggest xmi using argo/poseidon. Yes, xmi is a standard for UML diagrams. But they only are useful to those who can use them with the right tool. I think an image format could be used too for those who don't have such tool. again, argo is completely free and poseidon has a free version. They are both pretty lightweight. I'll be interested to see what you come up with. thanks david jencks WS david jencks WS --- Bill Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : You want it. Do it. Bill Burke Chief Architect JBoss Group, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of wonder sonic Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML? Hello, Looking the source code of the 4.0.0alpha version, I noticed the presence of Together diagrams in the jboss.net/testsuite directory. Wouldn't it be useful to add such development documentation (UML diagrams, not only classes diagrams) to other modules
Re: [JBoss-dev] JBoss and UML?
David Jencks wrote: Personally I have found uml diagrams sometimes useful in organizing my own thinking but have never been able to communicate any useful ideas using them. As I discuss below, I find UML (or whatever modeling language you want to use) useful primarily in providing macro, analysis views of system architecture and high-level design, and in providing templates for low-level design (A.K.A. coding). For this to be useful, it must be based on a common vocabulary that is derived from the user's vocabulary. For this to be persistent, you need additional prose documentation and/or village elders who can be relied on to educate the nubies. soapbox perspective=pragmatic style=danch-rant It's absolutely ridiculous to do sequence diagrams that get anywhere near the fine grained detail of code. development models where some 'design' team grinds through and produces mountains of that nonsense that then must be ignored by herds of coders who are the lucky many who actually find out what works don't scale well, to say the least. deap-breath / /soapbox 8^}) Indeed! In fact, we can consider UML diagrams as a complement to javadoc. When a development is done, javadoc should be synchronized with it, UML diagrams should be synchronized the same way. Well, according to the dogma, you change the UML first. My personal best practice is to keep the UML at a high enough level that most code changes don't invalidate UML, and those changes that do invalidate the model tend to require using the model as a thinking tool first. Frankly, my attitude to javadoc is much the same: it should be a brief description of what is being accomplished, not a detailed description of how. And you should write it _while_ you code, not after, because 'after its done' is a time no software gets to until it's irrelavant. If you write the code for a human to read (which is the point of high-level languages), you'll need minimal commenting. UML is most useful when it is used to describe coarse-grained structures - analysis models, typical mappings from analysis to design model (both with class diagrams), and typical flows (via sequence diagrams). This makes synchronization less of an issue - if you make a change that effects things at that level, you probably _need_ to model it. Changes in implementation details fall into the 'noise' category. I think that the main thing that causes open source software to tend not to have much in the way of design documentation is that the best open source systems are built by people who have a pretty good talent for keeping a model in their heads, and for building that wetware model by reading source. When you can see it working in your head, wacking out a model isn't real stimulating compared to getting it to work in the product. soapbox Never forget that the code _is_ a design artifact, and that coding _is_ a design activity. Don't let the fact that the fabrication process is truncated in software fool you into thinking that (good) coding is an assembly line activity. Of course, that assumes that you have software engineers, not merely well trained howler monkeys. Don't do J2EE with howler monkeys. /soapbox I suggest xmi using argo/poseidon. Yes, xmi is a standard for UML diagrams. But they only are useful to those who can use them with the right tool. I think an image format could be used too for those who don't have such tool. again, argo is completely free and poseidon has a free version. They are both pretty lightweight. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/ ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
