Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On 10/09/2010 07:55 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 10/09/2010 02:05 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 09/21/2010 09:15 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. PEP has another restriction, there are can't be more than one publisher. I'm missing the language in the XEP which limits a given node to only having one publisher at a time. I do see where a given item has only one publisher though. I don't really understood you but this is explaining link: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#approach-publisher The option of having multiple publishers per node is covered under the following: : A PEP service MAY support other use cases, affiliations, access models, : and features, but such support is OPTIONAL. ( http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#defaults ) This makes impossible to build some kinds of applications on it. How so? For example if I want to do the service with friends feedbacks about user. Then I need to allow other users to publish to a node. Similar to a user's 'wall' in facebook. Its possible. It seems that such access model is not acceptable in xep-60 too :( we will need to manually give all the people the publisher affiliation. This is not possible to such kind of service. -- With best regards, Sergey Dobrov, XMPP Developer and JRuDevels.org founder. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On 10/13/2010 06:22 AM, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 10/09/2010 07:55 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 10/09/2010 02:05 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 09/21/2010 09:15 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. PEP has another restriction, there are can't be more than one publisher. I'm missing the language in the XEP which limits a given node to only having one publisher at a time. I do see where a given item has only one publisher though. I don't really understood you but this is explaining link: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#approach-publisher The option of having multiple publishers per node is covered under the following: : A PEP service MAY support other use cases, affiliations, access models, : and features, but such support is OPTIONAL. ( http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#defaults ) This makes impossible to build some kinds of applications on it. How so? For example if I want to do the service with friends feedbacks about user. Then I need to allow other users to publish to a node. Similar to a user's 'wall' in facebook. Its possible. It seems that such access model is not acceptable in xep-60 too :( we will need to manually give all the people the publisher affiliation. This is not possible to such kind of service. Hm.. I found the pubsub#publish_model node option in XEP-60 but i can't find any description of it. Can you? -- With best regards, Sergey Dobrov, XMPP Developer and JRuDevels.org founder. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On 10/09/2010 07:55 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 10/09/2010 02:05 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 09/21/2010 09:15 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. PEP has another restriction, there are can't be more than one publisher. I'm missing the language in the XEP which limits a given node to only having one publisher at a time. I do see where a given item has only one publisher though. I don't really understood you but this is explaining link: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#approach-publisher The option of having multiple publishers per node is covered under the following: : A PEP service MAY support other use cases, affiliations, access models, : and features, but such support is OPTIONAL. ( http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#defaults ) Ok, but this fact makes server choosing more difficult for user. He must look if server supports PEP and if PEP supports such behavior... This makes impossible to build some kinds of applications on it. How so? For example if I want to do the service with friends feedbacks about user. Then I need to allow other users to publish to a node. Similar to a user's 'wall' in facebook. Its possible. Yes. It seems so. -- With best regards, Sergey Dobrov, XMPP Developer and JRuDevels.org founder. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On 09/21/2010 09:15 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. PEP has another restriction, there are can't be more than one publisher. This makes impossible to build some kinds of applications on it. -- With best regards, Sergey Dobrov, XMPP Developer and JRuDevels.org founder. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 09/21/2010 09:15 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. PEP has another restriction, there are can't be more than one publisher. I'm missing the language in the XEP which limits a given node to only having one publisher at a time. I do see where a given item has only one publisher though. This makes impossible to build some kinds of applications on it. How so? -- Bruce. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 10/09/2010 02:05 AM, Bruce Campbell wrote: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 09/21/2010 09:15 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. PEP has another restriction, there are can't be more than one publisher. I'm missing the language in the XEP which limits a given node to only having one publisher at a time. I do see where a given item has only one publisher though. I don't really understood you but this is explaining link: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#approach-publisher The option of having multiple publishers per node is covered under the following: : A PEP service MAY support other use cases, affiliations, access models, : and features, but such support is OPTIONAL. ( http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#defaults ) This makes impossible to build some kinds of applications on it. How so? For example if I want to do the service with friends feedbacks about user. Then I need to allow other users to publish to a node. Similar to a user's 'wall' in facebook. Its possible. -- Bruce. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On 09/21/2010 06:15 PM, Tuomas Koski wrote: Hi all, (I have been thinking about this quite a while now and I think it's better to ask from the smarter men) what are the best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses ? I thinking about this question too. And I believe that this question should be solved by extend of the XEP-154 User profile. Suddenly, the status of the XEP is Deferred. I found that it would be very useful for me... Anyway, there is really necessity in some way to do such discovery. -- With best regards, Sergey Dobrov, XMPP Developer and JRuDevels.org founder. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On 6 October 2010 21:41, Sergey Dobrov bin...@jrudevels.org wrote: On 10/07/2010 03:13 AM, Matthew Wild wrote: On 6 October 2010 18:46, Sergey Dobrov bin...@jrudevels.org wrote: On 09/21/2010 06:15 PM, Tuomas Koski wrote: Hi all, (I have been thinking about this quite a while now and I think it's better to ask from the smarter men) what are the best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses ? I thinking about this question too. And I believe that this question should be solved by extend of the XEP-154 User profile. Suddenly, the status of the XEP is Deferred. I found that it would be very useful for me... Anyway, there is really necessity in some way to do such discovery. It occured to me that this issue actually relates to a recurring problem we have in XMPP. When an account is removed from a server we remove subscriptions to their contacts also. Unfortunately there is no standard way to know what services an account may have also been associated with, and so no way to notify them of the accounts deletion. I don't have any other input for the actual protocol yet, I'll leave that to someone else for now :) But what about transports? It's not enough to remove subscription on them. We need to unregister also. Otherwise a new JID's owner will be allowed to access old owner's legacy accounts... I know, that's practically what I just said - if I failed to do it clearly, sorry :) Matthew ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Sergey Dobrov wrote: On 10/07/2010 03:13 AM, Matthew Wild wrote: It occured to me that this issue actually relates to a recurring problem we have in XMPP. When an account is removed from a server we remove subscriptions to their contacts also. Unfortunately there is no standard way to know what services an account may have also been associated with, and so no way to notify them of the accounts deletion. But what about transports? It's not enough to remove subscription on them. We need to unregister also. Otherwise a new JID's owner will be allowed to access old owner's legacy accounts... Account re-use is more of a political problem (ie, do the server administrators prevent re-use of a given account name for all time, or allow it to be used after a certain period ) than a protocol problem. One way to address it would be to 'suggest' that administrators don't re-use a given account for a given period, and for everything that has subscriptions to peridocially re-verify all subscribers in some manner. Ugh. -- Bruce. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
-Original Message- From: jdev-boun...@jabber.org [mailto:jdev-boun...@jabber.org] On Behalf Of Tuomas Koski Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 7:16 AM To: Jabber/XMPP software development list Subject: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses? ... what are the best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses ? ... So, what would be the best way to archive the same using XMPP? I had this discussion a while ago on the same subject here: http://www.mail-archive.com/standa...@xmpp.org/msg07797.html The answer to this is key to interoperability for pubsub. If I can't discover the location your nodes I cannot interoperate with you. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: The answer to this is key to interoperability for pubsub. If I can't discover the location your nodes I cannot interoperate with you. Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. But in some cases you don't want to (because your PEP service is minimal) or can't (because you have no PEP at all). It's not yet clear to me that a solution is possible. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
Hi, On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: The answer to this is key to interoperability for pubsub. If I can't discover the location your nodes I cannot interoperate with you. Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. Yes ... but ... On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: But in some cases you don't want to (because your PEP service is minimal) or can't (because you have no PEP at all). Exactly. The above is my limitation. On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: It's not yet clear to me that a solution is possible. Yeah. I will do a demo using the LRDD. It will not be beautiful but I think it'll get us started. Cheers, -- Tuomas ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On Tue Sep 21 15:56:09 2010, Tuomas Koski wrote: Hi, On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: The answer to this is key to interoperability for pubsub. If I can't discover the location your nodes I cannot interoperate with you. Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. Yes ... but ... On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: But in some cases you don't want to (because your PEP service is minimal) or can't (because you have no PEP at all). Exactly. The above is my limitation. On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: It's not yet clear to me that a solution is possible. Yeah. I will do a demo using the LRDD. It will not be beautiful but I think it'll get us started. What we need is a case of fallbacks. So we expect to find a microblog in the pubsub service rooted at the user's bare jid. Failing that, we expect to find a pointer advertised over PEP (Not ideal, since this would mean every time I come online, I'll get a copy of your advertisment). Failing that, we try webfinger/LRDD. Failing that, we see if the user's client(s) support some discovery method, and use that. (A special disco node?). This is really not ideal, as we need to catch the user online. Failing that, we assume that the user has no microblog unless configured. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
Hi, On 21 September 2010 17:07, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: On Tue Sep 21 15:56:09 2010, Tuomas Koski wrote: Hi, On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: The answer to this is key to interoperability for pubsub. If I can't discover the location your nodes I cannot interoperate with you. Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. Yes ... but ... On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: But in some cases you don't want to (because your PEP service is minimal) or can't (because you have no PEP at all). Exactly. The above is my limitation. On 21 September 2010 16:15, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: It's not yet clear to me that a solution is possible. Yeah. I will do a demo using the LRDD. It will not be beautiful but I think it'll get us started. What we need is a case of fallbacks. So we expect to find a microblog in the pubsub service rooted at the user's bare jid. Failing that, we expect to find a pointer advertised over PEP (Not ideal, since this would mean every time I come online, I'll get a copy of your advertisment). Yes, and the publisher of the microblog notices does not always want the microblog subscriber to be associated with an instant messaging and presence account. On 21 September 2010 17:07, Dave Cridland d...@cridland.net wrote: Failing that, we try webfinger/LRDD. Failing that, we see if the user's client(s) support some discovery method, and use that. (A special disco node?). This is really not ideal, as we need to catch the user online. Failing that, we assume that the user has no microblog unless configured. Thanks Dave! Great! That's way better than what I was about to offer. I'll do that. I think I can set up a demo pretty quickly. To be continued ... Br, -- Tuomas ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Best ways for a JID to advertise what services it uses?
On Tuesday 21 September 2010 07:15:40 Dave Cridland wrote: On Tue Sep 21 14:34:54 2010, Stephen Pendleton wrote: The answer to this is key to interoperability for pubsub. If I can't discover the location your nodes I cannot interoperate with you. Right, and the ideal answer is to use PEP - or rather, pubsub-onna-jid. But in some cases you don't want to (because your PEP service is minimal) or can't (because you have no PEP at all). It's not yet clear to me that a solution is possible. And maybe you're not always looking for a pubsub service. There's all sorts of additional metadata and application logic that one might want to associate with a user account. However, it's not practical that every XMPP user account server in the world implement every extension. And having to limit your application to only those user accounts with special baked-in extensions sucks. At Livefyre, we've attempted to solve this problem by introducing the idea of delegate services. Instead of adding extensions to the user accounts themselves, any arbitrary user account is able associate itself with a delegate service which provides the extensions. The problem with this, of course, is the same as that of the pubsub problem: given a user account JID alone there is currently no way to know what or where the delegated services for that JID are. Something like this might help: iq type=get to=u...@example.com id=1 query xmlns=http://jabber.org/protocol/delegate/ /iq iq type=result from=u...@example.com id=1 query xmlns=http://jabber.org/protocol/delegate; service type=pubsub jid=users.freepubsubforall.com/ service type=livefyre jid=services.livefyre.com/ /query /iq Just tossing it out as a rough idea to start from. -Justin ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
