[Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Frieda Reichsman
Hi,

I have a figure that is working in Firefox on Mac but broken in FF/Win  
Vista. It works fine in Mac/Safari and Win/Internet Explorer.

The error message in the Java console is as follows:

script ERROR: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied  
(java.net.SocketPermission 64.95.78.91:80 connect,resolve)
eval ERROR:
line 1 command 2 of  file null:
  script  3d/centerS1Abox.spt 
FileManager opening 
http://moleculesinmotion.com/3Dfigure_schumacher/3d/sidechains.spt
script ERROR: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied  
(java.net.SocketPermission 64.95.78.91:80 connect,resolve)

Can anyone tell me how to get around this? If this is a file placement  
issue - I thought that was only a problem with local files?

Thanks,

Frieda

PS - Jmol 11.5.27

//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//





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[Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Frieda Reichsman
I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just  
fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs  
when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons  
that do not call scripts work fine.)

Frieda

//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//





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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Bob Hanson
what happens when you go to that page and then plug this into the URL 
address line?

javascript:void(jmolScript('script 3d/sidechains.spt'))

?



Frieda Reichsman wrote:

I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just  
fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs  
when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons  
that do not call scripts work fine.)

Frieda

//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//





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-- 
Robert M. Hanson
Professor of Chemistry
St. Olaf College
Northfield, MN
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr


If nature does not answer first what we want,
it is better to take what answer we get. 

-- Josiah Willard Gibbs, Lecture XXX, Monday, February 5, 1900



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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Frieda Reichsman
There is no change in the button behavior, nor any discernible change  
in FF.

On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Bob Hanson wrote:

 what happens when you go to that page and then plug this into the URL
 address line?

 javascript:void(jmolScript('script 3d/sidechains.spt'))

 ?



 Frieda Reichsman wrote:

 I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just
 fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs
 when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons
 that do not call scripts work fine.)

 Frieda

 //

 Frieda Reichsman, PhD
 Molecules in Motion
 Interactive Molecular Structures
 http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
 413-253-2405

 //





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 -- 
 Robert M. Hanson
 Professor of Chemistry
 St. Olaf College
 Northfield, MN
 http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr


 If nature does not answer first what we want,
 it is better to take what answer we get.

 -- Josiah Willard Gibbs, Lecture XXX, Monday, February 5, 1900



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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Frieda Reichsman
Placing all the files in the same directory (and changing all the file  
calls) still results in a security error when a script is called by a  
button:

script ERROR: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied  
(java.net.SocketPermission 64.95.78.91:80 connect,resolve)

//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//




On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Frieda Reichsman wrote:

 I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just
 fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs
 when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons
 that do not call scripts work fine.)

 Frieda

 //

 Frieda Reichsman, PhD
 Molecules in Motion
 Interactive Molecular Structures
 http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
 413-253-2405

 //





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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Frieda Reichsman
CORRECTION - the pdb file does not load into the applet when all files  
are placed into the same directory. SO the breakage is even worse in  
this case.

script ERROR: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied
(java.net.SocketPermission 64.95.78.91:80 connect,resolve)


Sent previously, incorrect:
Placing all the files in the same directory (and changing all the file
calls) still results in a security error when a script is called by a
button:


//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//




On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Frieda Reichsman wrote:

 I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just
 fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs
 when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons
 that do not call scripts work fine.)

 Frieda

 //

 Frieda Reichsman, PhD
 Molecules in Motion
 Interactive Molecular Structures
 http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
 413-253-2405

 //





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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Frieda Reichsman
Hi Eran - I thought this sounded a lot like the problem that you folks  
are having. Thank you for confirming the domain name aspect of it.


Question - So, i assume there is no problem as long as the DNS reverse  
lookup IP address resolves to the  domain name of the URL--


for example, published figures at Biochemical Journal work perfectly  
(requires subscription):


http://www.biochemj.org/bj/410/0439/bj4100439add2.htm

--can you do a reverse lookup on that URL (I'm assuming you have a  
subscription from the Weizmann...) and confirm that -- or tell me how  
to do a reverse lookup myself?


Thanks,

Frieda
//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//




On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:51 AM, Eran Hodis wrote:

Hi Frieda,

This is a issue we are dealing with in Proteopedia as well.

The combination of Firefox version 2 and Java version 1.6.0_03+   
(latest stable release is 1.6.0_05) is more sensitive to security  
issues.


When I do a reverse DNS lookup on the IP address you gave  
(64.95.78.91) I get permaculture.gaiahost.coop.  I'm guessing that  
this name does not match the domain name of the website where you  
are having these problems.  This mismatch causes the combination of  
FF2 and Java 1.6.0_03+.  At least that is how I understand it at the  
moment, and if anyone wants to correct me I'll be glad to be  
corrected.


Regular commands seem to be passed ok to the Jmol applet, but  
scripts or files stored on the server throw the error when you try  
to execute or load them.  The odd part is that any script or load  
file commands inside the original definition of the applet works fine.


Rolf pointed out a message board dealing with the issue in one of  
his previous messages I've copied below:



This looks like a problem we are also facing with our JenaLib Jmol
Viewer and Firefox. It started with Java version 1.6.0_03.
Since Egon uses 1.6.0_05 I would expect that he will also have the  
same

java.security.AccessControlException problem with the following URL:

http://www.fli-leibniz.de/cgi-bin/3d_mapping.pl?CODE=1deh

I tried other Jmol sites and they worked fine with Java 1.6.0_03.  
But I

couldn't figure out what makes the difference.
The following thread in the Java forum
http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5230759; seems to  
refer
to this problem. It is suggested there that the problem could be  
avoided
 by connecting back to the server before any liveconnect calls are  
made.

But removing any callbacks didn't help with our viewer and I couldn't
detect any other liveconnect calls before loading the PDB file and
script from our server.

As explanation for the difference between InternetExplorer and  
Firefox I
found the suggestion that the more stringent default security policy  
of

Firefox is responsible for it.

Regards,
Rolf


Best regards,
Eran
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Frieda Reichsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

CORRECTION - the pdb file does not load into the applet when all files
are placed into the same directory. SO the breakage is even worse in
this case.

script ERROR: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied
(java.net.SocketPermission 64.95.78.91:80 connect,resolve)


Sent previously, incorrect:
Placing all the files in the same directory (and changing all the file
calls) still results in a security error when a script is called by a
button:


//

Frieda Reichsman, PhD
Molecules in Motion
Interactive Molecular Structures
http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
413-253-2405

//




On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Frieda Reichsman wrote:

 I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just
 fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs
 when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons
 that do not call scripts work fine.)

 Frieda

 //

 Frieda Reichsman, PhD
 Molecules in Motion
 Interactive Molecular Structures
 http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
 413-253-2405

 //





  
-

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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Eran Hodis
Hi Frieda,
I'm not sure what the IP address of that website is, does anyone know how to
get an IP address from a domain name?

http://remote.12dt.com/ allows you to do a reverse DNS lookup which you can
also do on a Mac terminal by doing nslookup followed by a space and then
the IP address.


Best,
Eran
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Frieda Reichsman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Hi Eran - I thought this sounded a lot like the problem that you folks are
 having. Thank you for confirming the domain name aspect of it.
 Question - So, i assume there is no problem as long as the DNS reverse
 lookup IP address resolves to the  domain name of the URL--

 for example, published figures at Biochemical Journal work perfectly
 (requires subscription):

 http://www.biochemj.org/bj/410/0439/bj4100439add2.htm

 --can you do a reverse lookup on that URL (I'm assuming you have a
 subscription from the Weizmann...) and confirm that -- or tell me how to do
 a reverse lookup myself?

 Thanks,

 Frieda
 //

 Frieda Reichsman, PhD
 Molecules in Motion
 Interactive Molecular Structures
 http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
 413-253-2405

 //




 On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:51 AM, Eran Hodis wrote:

 Hi Frieda,
 This is a issue we are dealing with in Proteopedia as well.

 The combination of Firefox version 2 and Java version 1.6.0_03+  (latest
 stable release is 1.6.0_05) is more sensitive to security issues.

 When I do a reverse DNS lookup on the IP address you gave (64.95.78.91) I
 get permaculture.gaiahost.coop.  I'm guessing that this name does not
 match the domain name of the website where you are having these problems.
  This mismatch causes the combination of FF2 and Java 1.6.0_03+.  At least
 that is how I understand it at the moment, and if anyone wants to correct me
 I'll be glad to be corrected.

 Regular commands seem to be passed ok to the Jmol applet, but scripts or
 files stored on the server throw the error when you try to execute or load
 them.  The odd part is that any script or load file commands inside the
 original definition of the applet works fine.

 Rolf pointed out a message board dealing with the issue in one of his
 previous messages I've copied below:


 This looks like a problem we are also facing with our JenaLib Jmol
 Viewer and Firefox. It started with Java version 1.6.0_03.
 Since Egon uses 1.6.0_05 I would expect that he will also have the same
 java.security.AccessControlException problem with the following URL:

 http://www.fli-leibniz.de/cgi-bin/3d_mapping.pl?CODE=1deh

 I tried other Jmol sites and they worked fine with Java 1.6.0_03. But I
 couldn't figure out what makes the difference.
 The following thread in the Java forum
 http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5230759; seems to refer
 to this problem. It is suggested there that the problem could be avoided
  by connecting back to the server before any liveconnect calls are made.
 But removing any callbacks didn't help with our viewer and I couldn't
 detect any other liveconnect calls before loading the PDB file and
 script from our server.

 As explanation for the difference between InternetExplorer and Firefox I
 found the suggestion that the more stringent default security policy of
 Firefox is responsible for it.

 Regards,
 Rolf


 Best regards,
 Eran
 On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Frieda Reichsman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  CORRECTION - the pdb file does not load into the applet when all files
  are placed into the same directory. SO the breakage is even worse in
  this case.
 
  script ERROR: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied
  (java.net.SocketPermission 64.95.78.91:80 connect,resolve)
 
 
  Sent previously, incorrect:
  Placing all the files in the same directory (and changing all the file
  calls) still results in a security error when a script is called by a
  button:
 
 
  //
 
  Frieda Reichsman, PhD
  Molecules in Motion
  Interactive Molecular Structures
  http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
  413-253-2405
 
  //
 
 
 
 
  On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Frieda Reichsman wrote:
 
   I should have mentioned more about the problem - the Jmol loads just
   fine on the page and responds to the mouse, but the problem occurs
   when a script is called from a radio button, checkbox, etc. (Buttons
   that do not call scripts work fine.)
  
   Frieda
  
   //
  
   Frieda Reichsman, PhD
   Molecules in Motion
   Interactive Molecular Structures
   http://www.moleculesinmotion.com
   413-253-2405
  
   //
  
  
  
  
  
  
  -
   This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference
   Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save
   $100.
   Use priority code J8TL2D2.
  
  

Re: [Jmol-users] Improvement for select sequence range

2008-04-21 Thread Rolf Huehne
Bob Hanson wrote:
 Better idea -- this is in Jmol 11.5.30 unless I hear complaints.
 
 PROPOSED JMOL DEFAULT CHANGE
 
 -
 set sequenceRangePhysical (default FALSE)
 
 NOTE: The default FALSE behavior for this setting is a change from 
 previous Jmol versions because it was argued that the default behavior 
 is unexpected, nonintuitive, and generally not useful.
 
 The issue is with PDB/mmCIF files that contain insertion codes or 
 residue numbers that are out of order and the effect that has on 
 selecting ranges of residues.
 
 Setting sequenceRangePhysical TRUE forces select 1-3 to select 
 residues physically located in the file between and including residues 1 
 and 3 on any chain. In the case that a chain does not contain either 
 residue 1 or residue 3, no atoms are returned for that chain. This is 
 Jmol behavior through Jmol 11.5.29.
 
 Setting sequenceRangePhysical FALSE (proposed default behavior starting 
 in Jmol 11.5.30) translates select 1-3 to select resno = 1 and resno 
 = 3, ignoring physical location in the file, and not requiring that 
 either residue 1 nor residue 3 exist on any chain.
 
 In the case where the residue numbers include insertion codes, the 
 behavior when sequenceRangePhysical is set TRUE is the same as above. So 
 select 1^A-3^B selects for all residues in the file between and 
 including those two codes. Both must exist on any given chain for which 
 atoms are returned.
 
 When sequenceRangePhysical is set FALSE, the behavior is to logically 
 AND the resno range with the insertion code. The command select 1^A-3 
 is the same as select 1-3^A and returns the same as select resno =1 
 and resno =3 and *^A. The selection select 1^A-3^B does not make 
 sense in this context and is simply interpreted as select 1-3^B.
 

Maybe I havn't understood the insertion code part correctly, but for me
it looks like there will be no range selected in the above example
1-3^A. Suppose the sequence would be 1,2,3,3A. Then the only residue
selected would be 3A because it is the only one that matches all three
conditions.

Bob, you havn't commented yet on my last proposal (use = / =
notation only if one of the border residues is missing). I still think
this is the best solution that was mentioned yet. Of course the physical
range selection is the only way to cope reliably with numbering
irregularities like insertion codes. So any = / = based method will
fail at least in some cases.
And this is also true for the solution of Jmol 11.5.30 (if I understood
it correctly). But it has 2 additional disadvantages:

1) some people have to change scripts/sites to revert to a correct selection

2) one has to decide principally which method should be used

My proposal lacks both of these disadvantages and still reduces the
selection failure rate.

Regards,
Rolf


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Re: [Jmol-users] Jmol error in Firefox/Windows only

2008-04-21 Thread Angel Herraez
 Hi Frieda, I'm not sure what the IP address of that website is, does 
 anyone know how to get an IP address from a domain name? 

Maybe:
http://www.dnswatch.info/



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Re: [Jmol-users] Improvement for select sequence range

2008-04-21 Thread Bob Hanson
Rolf, first, these are just development versions (11.5.x), so we can 
undo anything. I did see your suggestion, but I don't think it is really 
workable. You can't have an algorithm that sometimes does one thing and 
sometimes another in such an unpredictable fashion. (And, remember, this 
is chain-specific.)

The logic here is that (a) we can have it the way we always did -- using 
that flag, and (b) we can have it the way a user would expect as well. 
That's the general solution to this. So the real question is whether we 
want the default for sequenceRangePhysical to be TRUE or FALSE.

I'm hearing you say you want it TRUE, so that there are no changes to 
current scripts. That's certainly the way I usually lean, but in this 
case I thought Eric made a significant argument for changing the default 
behavior to one that is far more logical to the user. (The user 
generally doesn't care what the physical layout of the file is -- they 
just want to know about residue numbers, and since the proposed change 
is consistent with Rasmol behavior, one could argue that what we have 
now is a bug, in fact.)

As for Insertion codes

Rolf Huehne wrote:





Maybe I havn't understood the insertion code part correctly, but for me
it looks like there will be no range selected in the above example
1-3^A. Suppose the sequence would be 1,2,3,3A. Then the only residue
selected would be 3A because it is the only one that matches all three
conditions.

  

Basically, I propose that what 1-3^A means is within range 1-3, all 
inserted residues of type A. That's easy to explain. Certainly in some 
cases there could be a string of these, so it could amount to a range. 
So, for example, with 2by9, we get (old/your) way:

load =2by9
select 182-183
$ select 182-183 and *.N
$ print {selected}.label()
[CYS]182:X.N #1269
[ALA]183:X.N #1275

but 183-184:

$ select 183-184
$ print {selected}.label()
[ALA]183:X.N #1275
[GLY]183^A:X.N #1280
[TYR]184:X.N #1284

That seems strange and rather unexpected to me. It's because the 
inserted item is after the original in the file. I would rather see (I 
think):

$ select 182-183 and *.N
$ print {selected}.label()
[CYS]182:X.N #1269
[ALA]183:X.N #1275
[GLY]183^A:X.N #1280

$ select 183-184
$ print {selected}.label()
[ALA]183:X.N #1275
[GLY]183^A:X.N #1280
[TYR]184:X.N #1284

(Actually, I have some question as to whether the alternative locations 
should be included. I think so.)

Eric, if you select 183 do you expect to select it and the inserted 
code next to it? How about 183-184 -- what would you expect there?

  183, 183^A, 184, 184^A

or

  183, 183^A, 184

or

  183, 184

?

Bob, you havn't commented yet on my last proposal (use = / =
notation only if one of the border residues is missing). I still think
this is the best solution that was mentioned yet. Of course the physical
range selection is the only way to cope reliably with numbering
irregularities like insertion codes. So any = / = based method will
fail at least in some cases.
  

Don't worry about my committing it or not -- let's arrive at a consensus 
view if we can. I have to say I don't like the minimize the failure 
rate idea. Let's get this fixed.

And this is also true for the solution of Jmol 11.5.30 (if I understood
it correctly). But it has 2 additional disadvantages:

1) some people have to change scripts/sites to revert to a correct selection

  

I'm not convinced that will be a problem. I just don't see how we can 
have it behave one way and then another simply based on knowledge the 
user doesn't have (whether groups are present or not in a specific chain).

2) one has to decide principally which method should be used

  

If it's a serious concern, all we need to do is have the default 
behavior be

  set sequenceRangePhysical TRUE

and let Eric be sure to set sequenceRangePhysical FALSE for his pages.

My proposal lacks both of these disadvantages and still reduces the
selection failure rate.

  

my goal is to eliminate the failure rate.

Bob


Regards,
Rolf


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-- 
Robert M. Hanson
Professor of Chemistry
St. Olaf College
Northfield, MN
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr


If nature does not answer first what we want,
it is better to take what answer we get. 

-- Josiah Willard Gibbs, Lecture XXX, Monday, February 5, 1900



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Re: [Jmol-users] Improvement for select sequence range

2008-04-21 Thread Bob Hanson
OK, upon rereading this thread, especially Rolf's earliest post, and 
thinking more about what SELECT a-b should mean, and what insertions 
are, and all that, I do agree that the first solution I had in mind and 
put into 11.5.30 is not a good idea. What if we just went with Eric's 
initial idea, but not in the sense of resno =/=. I agree with Rolf 
that that will really mess up scripts, and I agree with Eric that what 
we have now is not intuitive. But I disagree with Rolf that the behavior 
should be different depending upon what the file is like. That to me 
seems like it would be totally opaque behavior to a user.

It seems to me what we have now is just about right, except we should 
allow for missing end groups. Then no scripts will be affected, because 
surely no one has a script that selects 0 atoms (11.5.29 behavior) or 
expects that.

Taking Eric's example (2rd0):

(505,528,529,530)

Do we all agree that

select 520-530 should select 3 groups (as Rasmol)?

Taking Rolf's example with 1ak4:

(27,1027,2027,3027,4027,5027,28)


Do we all agree that 


select 27-28 should select all of these?

select 27-2027 should select just the first three?

select 5027-28 should select the last two?


And insertions (1jgq):

(1031,1032,1032^A,1032^B,1033)

Do we all agree that

select 1031-1033 should select all?

select 1031-1032^A should select just the first 3?

select 1031-1032^C should select... what? perhaps the first 4?


If so, I will just make Jmol do that, that's all.

Bob




-- 
Robert M. Hanson
Professor of Chemistry
St. Olaf College
Northfield, MN
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr


If nature does not answer first what we want,
it is better to take what answer we get. 

-- Josiah Willard Gibbs, Lecture XXX, Monday, February 5, 1900



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Re: [Jmol-users] Improvement for select sequence range

2008-04-21 Thread Bob Hanson
nevermind. The proposed algorithm is:

For each model...
 For each chain in the model...
   While not done...
 Given two sequence+insertion codes A and B...
 1)  look for (another) A.
 2)  if A is not found...
   2a) find the code numerically 
 closest to it and larger
   2b) if no such code exists, return DONE
   2c) set INEXACT
 3)  if B is missing (select 1-)
   3a) select the last group of the chain
   3b) set INEXACT
 else
   3c) look for B at or after A in the file
   3d) if B is not found...
   4a) find the code numerically 
 closest to it and smaller
   4b) if no such code exists, return DONE
   4c) set INEXACT
 5) select all atoms physically between and including codes A and B
 6) if INEXACT, return DONE, else return NOT DONE


Bob Hanson wrote:

In addition, I note that if there are two blocks of groups having the 
same group numbers (as in the old 1t0n or 1blu files) in the same chain 
(in my observation, protein and water), then the first matching range 
(the protein) is selected.

Bob

Bob Hanson wrote:

  

I have committed this for testing as 11.5.31_dev. It turns out the 
original rewrite of the sequence range code was done by Miguel in 
Sept/2005 in response to a request by Rolf relating to a strange PDB 
file (1t0n) that had duplicate numbering and no chain designations. As 
far as I can see, that particular PDB file has been fixed, and the 
problem is a non-issue. So the way the (proposed) code works now, is this:

Given two sequence+insertion codes A and B...
 For each chain...
   1)  look for A.
   2)  if A is not found, find the code numerically closest to it and 
larger
   3)  if no such code exists, return 0 atoms
   4)  if B is missing (select 1-)
select the last group of the chain
   else
look for B at or after A in the file
   5) if B is not found, find the code numerically closest to it and 
smaller
   6) if no such code exists, return 0 atoms
   7) return all atoms physically between and including codes A and B

How does that sound?

Bob
 





-- 
Robert M. Hanson
Professor of Chemistry
St. Olaf College
Northfield, MN
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr


If nature does not answer first what we want,
it is better to take what answer we get. 

-- Josiah Willard Gibbs, Lecture XXX, Monday, February 5, 1900



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