RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Nah just tired! -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:55 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring ;-) You must be sick, being so sensitive, so I just wondered if you got a flu shot. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:48 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Was that a jab? I'll be honest. I don't get it. Speak slow and talk in small words. It helps me. BTW Don't you remember. I was going to get the flu shot, but we were both in line. Apparently, you were the higher risk. They made me get out of line. If your comment was not a jab, sorry for the jab. I could not resist. If your comment was a jab, I didn't get it, but I love jabbing back. BTW Lack of sleep makes me a mean SOB. -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:41 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Did you get your flu shot? Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:29 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of "risk". (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on "how risky Spring is" is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend t
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
;-) You must be sick, being so sensitive, so I just wondered if you got a flu shot. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:48 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Was that a jab? I'll be honest. I don't get it. Speak slow and talk in small words. It helps me. BTW Don't you remember. I was going to get the flu shot, but we were both in line. Apparently, you were the higher risk. They made me get out of line. If your comment was not a jab, sorry for the jab. I could not resist. If your comment was a jab, I didn't get it, but I love jabbing back. BTW Lack of sleep makes me a mean SOB. -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:41 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Did you get your flu shot? Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:29 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of "risk". (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on "how risky Spring is" is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, e
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Okay sounds good to me. -Original Message- From: Robert Zeigler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:48 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Richard Hightower wrote: >I apologize. I thought someone had asked me to present. >I will come ready to present or ready to listen. >The decision maker can let me know which. Hopefully soon. > > > Somebody did; I was unclear as to whether or not you had accepted the invitation, and was merely seeking clarification. For right now... why don't we plan on you presenting, unless somebody objects between now and, say, tonight? =) I would consider this the best course of action for several reasons. 1) There is obviously a lot of list interest in Spring 2) I live in Tucson; I could give my presentation anytime. The chance to hear your presentation is not as available. =) So, unless someone "in authority" (Warner? =) objects, I'll be planning on listening to a Spring presentation tomorrow. =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Was that a jab? I'll be honest. I don't get it. Speak slow and talk in small words. It helps me. BTW Don't you remember. I was going to get the flu shot, but we were both in line. Apparently, you were the higher risk. They made me get out of line. If your comment was not a jab, sorry for the jab. I could not resist. If your comment was a jab, I didn't get it, but I love jabbing back. BTW Lack of sleep makes me a mean SOB. -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:41 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Did you get your flu shot? Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:29 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of "risk". (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on "how risky Spring is" is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] > > If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will suppo
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Richard Hightower wrote: I apologize. I thought someone had asked me to present. I will come ready to present or ready to listen. The decision maker can let me know which. Hopefully soon. Somebody did; I was unclear as to whether or not you had accepted the invitation, and was merely seeking clarification. For right now... why don't we plan on you presenting, unless somebody objects between now and, say, tonight? =) I would consider this the best course of action for several reasons. 1) There is obviously a lot of list interest in Spring 2) I live in Tucson; I could give my presentation anytime. The chance to hear your presentation is not as available. =) So, unless someone "in authority" (Warner? =) objects, I'll be planning on listening to a Spring presentation tomorrow. =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Did you get your flu shot? Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:29 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of "risk". (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on "how risky Spring is" is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] > > If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will support the technology? Who supports Tapestry? Who supports Struts? This statement is absurd. There are several companies that support Spring. ArcMind for one... Interface21 for another. J2Life for a third. Thoughtworks. Springframework.com, Etc. etc. I don't need folks in dark blue suits with vests to gain value from a framework. Hibernate paved the way. Spring is an easy sell to the fortune 100. I have had a lot of success in getting it adopted at companies big and small. It stands on its own. * Do management tools exist? ## Yes. The tool is called an editor. Newer versions of Spring include JMX support so it is toolable. Do management tools exist for Struts, WebWork, Tapestry??? Spring
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
I apologize. I thought someone had asked me to present. I will come ready to present or ready to listen. The decision maker can let me know which. Hopefully soon. If you have a presentation, and you are set to present, I really don't want to supersede you. I am not that egotistical. Despite what I may sound like in email form. -Original Message- From: Robert Zeigler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:37 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Richard Hightower wrote: >Robert, > >I don't make that call. I am happy to come and watch an NIO discussion. >We can discuss Spring over some beers. >I don't want to supersede anyone. My feeling will not be hurt if I am >canceled. I apologize for the scheduling error. > > > > =) Well, I'm perfectly content to come and watch a presentation on Spring. ;) I just wasn't sure if it was ever clear whether or not you were planning on doing your presentation in Tucson, as well as Phoenix. Personally, I'm very interested in seeing your presentation on Spring. (I'd rather see your pres. on spring than give mine on NIO, personally. ;) So, if you're willing to present, and if other people (like the ones who actually make decisions for these sorts of things... Warner? ;) have no objections. . . =) Robert >-Original Message- >From: Robert Zeigler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:07 AM >To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org >Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: >[jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring > >Richard Hightower wrote: > > > >>Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) >> >> >> >> > >On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? >Or am I still presenting NIO? =) >(Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not >presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? Warner? >Anybody? =) > >Robert > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Richard Hightower wrote: Robert, I don't make that call. I am happy to come and watch an NIO discussion. We can discuss Spring over some beers. I don't want to supersede anyone. My feeling will not be hurt if I am canceled. I apologize for the scheduling error. =) Well, I'm perfectly content to come and watch a presentation on Spring. ;) I just wasn't sure if it was ever clear whether or not you were planning on doing your presentation in Tucson, as well as Phoenix. Personally, I'm very interested in seeing your presentation on Spring. (I'd rather see your pres. on spring than give mine on NIO, personally. ;) So, if you're willing to present, and if other people (like the ones who actually make decisions for these sorts of things... Warner? ;) have no objections. . . =) Robert -Original Message- From: Robert Zeigler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:07 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Richard Hightower wrote: Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? Or am I still presenting NIO? =) (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? Warner? Anybody? =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Depends on which ASU campus as to which city its in ;) However, like the LA basin, almost anywhere in metro phoenix is close enough. Do you have details? Where, when, is it free, etc. :) I think there are several of us up here that may want to attend. On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Richard Hightower wrote: > I am speaking in phoenix the next day. > > ASU is in Phoenix... Right? > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:18 AM > To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: > [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring > > Is any one able to do an audio/video/notes cache of the presentation for > us/me? (Not be in Tucson is a real drag sometimes ;) > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Robert Zeigler wrote: > > > Richard Hightower wrote: > > > > >Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) > > > > > > > > > > On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? > > Or am I still presenting NIO? =) > > (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not > > presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? > > Warner? Anybody? =) > > > > Robert > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of "risk". (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on "how risky Spring is" is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] > > If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will support the technology? Who supports Tapestry? Who supports Struts? This statement is absurd. There are several companies that support Spring. ArcMind for one... Interface21 for another. J2Life for a third. Thoughtworks. Springframework.com, Etc. etc. I don't need folks in dark blue suits with vests to gain value from a framework. Hibernate paved the way. Spring is an easy sell to the fortune 100. I have had a lot of success in getting it adopted at companies big and small. It stands on its own. * Do management tools exist? ## Yes. The tool is called an editor. Newer versions of Spring include JMX support so it is toolable. Do management tools exist for Struts, WebWork, Tapestry??? Spring does not replace the app server. You can use Spring with Weblogic, Webshpere, etc. This question makes no sense. Spring does not replace the app server (yet). What do you think Spring is? * How should we partition work between domestic and offshore? ## The same as you would with any technology. Having done it, I can tell you it is no big deal. Or should I say it is no bigger deal than it was before using Spring. ## I am not going to comment on the Jav
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
I am speaking in phoenix the next day. ASU is in Phoenix... Right? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:18 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Is any one able to do an audio/video/notes cache of the presentation for us/me? (Not be in Tucson is a real drag sometimes ;) On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Robert Zeigler wrote: > Richard Hightower wrote: > > >Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) > > > > > > On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? > Or am I still presenting NIO? =) > (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not > presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? > Warner? Anybody? =) > > Robert > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Robert, I don't make that call. I am happy to come and watch an NIO discussion. We can discuss Spring over some beers. I don't want to supersede anyone. My feeling will not be hurt if I am canceled. I apologize for the scheduling error. -Original Message- From: Robert Zeigler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:07 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Richard Hightower wrote: >Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) > > On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? Or am I still presenting NIO? =) (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? Warner? Anybody? =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Is any one able to do an audio/video/notes cache of the presentation for us/me? (Not be in Tucson is a real drag sometimes ;) On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Robert Zeigler wrote: > Richard Hightower wrote: > > >Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) > > > > > > On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? > Or am I still presenting NIO? =) > (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not > presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) > Any thoughts? Warner? Anybody? =) > > Robert > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Richard Hightower wrote: Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? Or am I still presenting NIO? =) (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? Warner? Anybody? =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Comments below -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:19 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Could you elaborate more one item number 3? Come to the jug on Tuesday, and ask again. It will be elaborated upon. In addition, how is scalability with regards to spring? ** There is no issues regarding scalability and Spring. Its transaction support is faster than most commercial J2EE containers. It is even faster if you consider that you can rely on local transaction if you are only talking to one datasource w/o the overhead of JTA when it is not needed. Spring is not a bottle neck. You can use it with J2EE app server to get scalability. Let's discuss this Tuesday as I can say a lot more than I am saying or have time to write. Does it scale as well as EJB? ** Yes in most cases. In some fairly odd cases, there is one commercial container that has a speed advantage in some edge cases. More likely Spring is the speed winner. Scalability will still be achieved with your app server not Spring. Spring can work in a J2EE app server. Spring does not replace an app server. Spring does not (yet) have clustering support. On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Warner Onstine wrote: > Contrary to popular belief we don't all do Web development (I do, but > that's me). As for advocating the use of Spring over EJB's I do for > the following reasons: > 1) Testability - You can much more easily mock up the classes you need > and drop them into a Spring container (if need be, this isn't even > necessary if you want to test singular classes) > 2) It is a lightweight container - it doesn't require a full-blown EJB > container in order to run (which also means that I could use Spring in > the client side) > 3) Spring allows you to use your own beans and doesn't require that > you tie yourself to a container > 4) Spring is much more than persistence (in fact that isn't even it's > primary purpose, it happens that is it's current raison d'etre because > of it's built-in ORM services), it makes it relatively painless to > swap out Hibernate for JDO, iBatis, etc. > > What else? I never understood the reasoning behind EJB's (especially > the fact that I had to create 4 or 5 files just to persist something). > I will be the first to admit that I have not had a lot of experience > with EJBs, but what I'm doing currently doesn't require me to, neither > will my future development. Also, one of the key things that I love is > that Hibernate's main developer, Gavin King, is helping to craft the > new EJB 3 spec. This tells me that Hibernate is onto a good thing and > Sun realizes it. > > I will let other's (who have had much more experience with EJBs to > explain why they have chosen to move away from that, but I've heard > many a story from developers (in this group and at many conferences) > who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with EJBs (even with > XDoclet added in). > > -warner > > On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: > > > > > One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the > > Spring Framework? > > > > -josh > > > > --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > >> well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem > >> attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring > >> peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the > >> boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an > >> educated reply to some points... > >> > >> --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > >>> To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > >>> Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured > >> article > >>> on Spring > >>> > >>> > >>> Nicholas, > >>> > >>> Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as > >>> many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and > >>> support that code him > >> or > >>> herself! At the cost of the customer! > >>> > >>> I am surely not the only one in the Java world > >> who > >>> is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting > >> anyone( > >>> what do you think
[jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of "risk". (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on "how risky Spring is" is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] > > If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will support the technology? Who supports Tapestry? Who supports Struts? This statement is absurd. There are several companies that support Spring. ArcMind for one... Interface21 for another. J2Life for a third. Thoughtworks. Springframework.com, Etc. etc. I don't need folks in dark blue suits with vests to gain value from a framework. Hibernate paved the way. Spring is an easy sell to the fortune 100. I have had a lot of success in getting it adopted at companies big and small. It stands on its own. * Do management tools exist? ## Yes. The tool is called an editor. Newer versions of Spring include JMX support so it is toolable. Do management tools exist for Struts, WebWork, Tapestry??? Spring does not replace the app server. You can use Spring with Weblogic, Webshpere, etc. This question makes no sense. Spring does not replace the app server (yet). What do you think Spring is? * How should we partition work between domestic and offshore? ## The same as you would with any technology. Having done it, I can tell you it is no big deal. Or should I say it is no bigger deal than it was before using Spring. ## I am not going to comment on the Java vs. Microsoft debate. Not b/c I don't have an opinion, but b/c I don't have the time or interest at this point. There are only so many hours in a day. I for one, am sick of watching the server log as I deploy my components and wait to test them. Large projects take forever to deploy. Yo
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Spring (and other IoC containers like Hivemind) use POJOs (Plain Old Java Objects) as their beans. So, in theory you can code to an interface and swap out one bean with another, as long as they implement the same interface. Where this breaks down in practice is when you start using things like HibernateTemplates, where you are tying your implementation to Spring's specific functionality (but you can still implement things so that they work in a testing environment). As for scaling, I haven't used Spring in a large application environment so I can't answer that question. However I did find this interesting thread on the server side which may answer some of these questions (from others): http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=27693 -warner On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:18 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you elaborate more one item number 3? In addition, how is scalability with regards to spring? Does it scale as well as EJB? If not, at what point do you see EJB surpass Spring? On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Warner Onstine wrote: Contrary to popular belief we don't all do Web development (I do, but that's me). As for advocating the use of Spring over EJB's I do for the following reasons: 1) Testability - You can much more easily mock up the classes you need and drop them into a Spring container (if need be, this isn't even necessary if you want to test singular classes) 2) It is a lightweight container - it doesn't require a full-blown EJB container in order to run (which also means that I could use Spring in the client side) 3) Spring allows you to use your own beans and doesn't require that you tie yourself to a container 4) Spring is much more than persistence (in fact that isn't even it's primary purpose, it happens that is it's current raison d'etre because of it's built-in ORM services), it makes it relatively painless to swap out Hibernate for JDO, iBatis, etc. What else? I never understood the reasoning behind EJB's (especially the fact that I had to create 4 or 5 files just to persist something). I will be the first to admit that I have not had a lot of experience with EJBs, but what I'm doing currently doesn't require me to, neither will my future development. Also, one of the key things that I love is that Hibernate's main developer, Gavin King, is helping to craft the new EJB 3 spec. This tells me that Hibernate is onto a good thing and Sun realizes it. I will let other's (who have had much more experience with EJBs to explain why they have chosen to move away from that, but I've heard many a story from developers (in this group and at many conferences) who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with EJBs (even with XDoclet added in). -warner On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? -josh --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply to some points... --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of the
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Could you elaborate more one item number 3? In addition, how is scalability with regards to spring? Does it scale as well as EJB? If not, at what point do you see EJB surpass Spring? On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Warner Onstine wrote: > Contrary to popular belief we don't all do Web development (I do, but > that's me). As for advocating the use of Spring over EJB's I do for the > following reasons: > 1) Testability - You can much more easily mock up the classes you need > and drop them into a Spring container (if need be, this isn't even > necessary if you want to test singular classes) > 2) It is a lightweight container - it doesn't require a full-blown EJB > container in order to run (which also means that I could use Spring in > the client side) > 3) Spring allows you to use your own beans and doesn't require that you > tie yourself to a container > 4) Spring is much more than persistence (in fact that isn't even it's > primary purpose, it happens that is it's current raison d'etre because > of it's built-in ORM services), it makes it relatively painless to swap > out Hibernate for JDO, iBatis, etc. > > What else? I never understood the reasoning behind EJB's (especially > the fact that I had to create 4 or 5 files just to persist something). > I will be the first to admit that I have not had a lot of experience > with EJBs, but what I'm doing currently doesn't require me to, neither > will my future development. Also, one of the key things that I love is > that Hibernate's main developer, Gavin King, is helping to craft the > new EJB 3 spec. This tells me that Hibernate is onto a good thing and > Sun realizes it. > > I will let other's (who have had much more experience with EJBs to > explain why they have chosen to move away from that, but I've heard > many a story from developers (in this group and at many conferences) > who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with EJBs (even with > XDoclet added in). > > -warner > > On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: > > > > > One question: is there anyone on this list who does > > not advocate the Spring Framework? > > > > -josh > > > > --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > >> well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your > >> ad > >> hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve > >> got > >> a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean > >> to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple > >> cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply > >> to some points... > >> > >> --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > >>> To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > >>> Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured > >> article > >>> on Spring > >>> > >>> > >>> Nicholas, > >>> > >>> Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't > >>> try > >>> to solve as many problems, instead the developer / > >>> architect has to write and support that code him > >> or > >>> herself! At the cost of the customer! > >>> > >>> I am surely not the only one in the Java world > >> who > >>> is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting > >> anyone( > >>> what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already > >>> been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe > >>> some > >>> of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This > >>> is > >>> a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think > >> ). > >>> > >>> > >>> In the end I would hope that a > >>> consultant/developer > >>> is offering his or her client either a competitive > >>> advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, > >> the > >>> 'architects' rarely do either. > >>> > >>> I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that > >> as > >>> soon as EJB development became affordable and > >>> accessible, that some 'expert' declares it > >> unusable > >>> for some reason, and invents some new technology > >>> that > >>> will save the day( a
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
This was a realy good answer... Odly enough it makes me more compled to give spring a try... Thanks :) On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Tim Colson wrote: > Josh wrote: > > Hello Richard, > And what a lengthy note it was too. ;-) > > I'm not sure if he meant to send to the mailing list... but the email seems > to have "flame bait" written all over it. > > Even though it was addressed to Richard, since it did make it onto the list, > seems fair game to comment back. > > I'll only touch on two things: > > > how is Spring going to make my life easier? > Good question. I kept asking it but nobody had a succinct answer beyond, "It > let's you auto configure beans." Whoop Dee Doo. Whazzat mean? > > A colleague jumped in and started using Spring. I watched his cvs commits, > and talked with him to find for myself what it does. Then I started trying > Spring. > > Right now I'm using probably 5% of the f(n)... mostly to configure beans and > use the JDBC template stuff. By "config beans" I mean instead of writing > some "init() or boostrap() code to for ex. create and start up a DB Pooler, > I stick it into the spring-main.xml, and then inject a connection from the > pool into a DAO. The JDBC template stuff is just a handy wrapper to make raw > JDBC prettier. > > > claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of > > EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that > > is designed to solve the very same problem as > > EJB(container managed persistence > My understanding is different... Spring just claims to be a minimalist > framework that enables you to plug-in functionality. Kinda like Eclipse does > nothing on it's own until you plug-in a compiler module. > > In that vein, Hibernate plugs in... and I'm under the impression that > Hibernate 3.0 will be the "next official EJB" implementation. But it's still > separate from Spring. > > Cheers, > Tim > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
As one of the "certifiable" experts, Erik is dead on target. I would only add that human nature is to use the tools one knows best and if they know more than one tool, to use the best tool they know about. If A Company hires Erik they do so for a number of reasons, most of which is the perception that Erik can solve their problems and they garner that from his resume, his track record and references. From then on Erik (and all the other professionals I know and respect) will do the best job he can to solve the problems with the tools at hand and if a particular aspect requires a new tool, he will learn it and use it. The idea that Erik would somehow shun a superior tool, just because he thinks his expert status would be diminished is totally foolish. Just about everyone on this list has preferences for which tools to use in various situations and while am equally sure there is a 'VERY BEST' tool for some situations, the "grey area" of which tool is better in one situation or another is to be expected and is normal. Now Erik has strong opinions on which technology is better and if asked will tell you...;-) But he has never put down an "Expert" for disagreeing with him, except in jestat least I think it was jest. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:05 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 8:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: > One question: is there anyone on this list who does > not advocate the Spring Framework? Is there anyone who does not advocate a screwdriver? For banging nails in the wall, I'd recommend a hammer, but even the heel of a shoe may do the trick in a pinch. So let's throw all our screwdrivers away because they are useless. Let's be a bit more pragmatic than categorizing into black and white. There are lots of grey areas out there too. Randy said it very wisely that its not "the answer" but one of many technological alternatives (like pico, HiveMind, Avalon, etc, etc). An IoC container makes a lot of sense as part of a flexible framework - like Tapestry for example. Having all of its services pluggable (using HiveMind, not Spring, in this case) is of great value. Do I use an IoC container in my current projects? No, because it's overkill for what I build generally, but I don't build the same kinds of apps that others build where Spring is a reasonable technology option. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
On Jan 9, 2005, at 8:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? Is there anyone who does not advocate a screwdriver? For banging nails in the wall, I'd recommend a hammer, but even the heel of a shoe may do the trick in a pinch. So let's throw all our screwdrivers away because they are useless. Let's be a bit more pragmatic than categorizing into black and white. There are lots of grey areas out there too. Randy said it very wisely that its not "the answer" but one of many technological alternatives (like pico, HiveMind, Avalon, etc, etc). An IoC container makes a lot of sense as part of a flexible framework - like Tapestry for example. Having all of its services pluggable (using HiveMind, not Spring, in this case) is of great value. Do I use an IoC container in my current projects? No, because it's overkill for what I build generally, but I don't build the same kinds of apps that others build where Spring is a reasonable technology option. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. Not because of the cost of developers with the experience to use Spring, but because of the risk. I have been teaching an architecture class to large corporations these last few months and I have had the opportunity to cover J2EE topics in that context. I always mention and explore alternate ways to implement various parts of a system (such as CBD, pure AOP, Spring, etc.) All of the students have been very sharp people. They have built many systems and they have to support real systems in 24*7 deployments that run large businesses. The students have the title "senior developer", "architect", or "senior/chief architect" on their business cards. Within the context I am asked interesting questions, such as: * Who will support the technology? * Do management tools exist? * How should we partition work between domestic and offshore? And, I have been approached by several groups to help them take 1st generation Java "server side" applications and redesign them so that they are more reliable, maintainable, etc. This is an interesting time for Java; the feedback I am getting from corporate clients regarding Java and Microsoft is: * Microsoft's solution is easier to understand and yields solutions faster * Microsoft's solution does not naturally lead to larger, high performance systems * Java is much more complex, but (probably) results in higher performing system Why am I discussing all of this context? To help calibrate the discussion about Spring. Spring is not "the answer", it is a technological alternative. Is the risk of using Spring worth the returns that it can provide? I am not yet convinced. I am looking forward to a presentation on Spring at an upcoming meeting to help us all explore the pros and cons of this alternative. Randy -- Randolph S. Kahle, 6161 N Canon del Pajaro, Tucson, AZ 85750 Phone: +1 520 577 7680 [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.variantia.net smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Feedback. You can give me feedback on this article at: http://www.sys-con.com/story/feedback.cfm?storyid=47735 And on my blog http://jroller.com/page/RickHigh/20050107#spring_plug I am happy to address what you have written at either location. JDJ will give you a lot more exposure than my blog. So if you don't want the world to know what you are saying, you can do it at my blog. Also, feel free to use an anonymous name. I appreciate any and all feedback. The more feedback. The more it validates the importance of the article/opinion. I can't fault Josh too much b/c when I first heard of IoC and AOP I felt the same way. I am a very skeptical person. And, I hate change just for the sake of change. When Nick first told me about AOP, I thought he went insane. Now I realize that he was right. I once argued with Gavin King (face to face) about the merits of EJB CMP/CMR over Hibernate. DOH! He was right. I was wrong. I know this from experience from working with both. Although Gavin et al did not convince me that day, they put a pretty big doubt in my mind. BTW Spring is becoming main stream. Look at the number one selling book on Java. Then look at its contents. Ignore it at your own peril! Again post your comment at either place. Give me a heads up it is there and I will respond to every point that I disagree with. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:43 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Hello Richard, I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so I feel obligated to make a statement here. The general question that I am interested in is: how is Spring going to make my life easier? Although it claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that is designed to solve the very same problem as EJB(container managed persistence may not be high-performance, but I would not expect it to given the level of simplicity that it provides ). There is a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where various platforms claim to have solved the problem of a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in the end every distributed platform must have an index of its resources to be accessable. I think that Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what happened with JBoss. In california it is fashionable to be using the Spring framework( in the java server market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way more trouble than theyre worth. The kind of people who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems( seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring architects. To me it would appear that the best platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss. EJB programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower cost, easier maintenance. EJB is a well thought out technology designed to solve these problems. If I build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the cost/size curve is pretty steep. Not a cheap 'solution' if you ask me. The average mid size server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would estimate to cost ~$500K/year. you can find decent EJB people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ). Its almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps salaries high. The server architecture world is very over inflated right now. I think much of it has to do with the IBM marketing efforts. It is almost as if the same marketing manager from the mainframe department moved into Websphere. IBM in turn resorts to its common set of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ). Generally, IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with power/compatibility, and then sells a product that falls woefully short of their promises. In steps over priced architect to save the day. It is more of a social problem if anything. If the platform does not work, the 'architect' does not complain because it is his job to be an expert in this technology. The project manager never hears anything about websphere but what comes from IBM via trade journals. Meanwhile millions are being spent and no one is to blame. Not a good situation for business owner. In the 80s billions were lost in the CORBA world this way: too much technology is one way of looking at the situation. Web Services is another- these ideas of interoperability between business over digital network is not at all new( EDI was invented in the 70s I believe ). Using SOAP/XML-RPC/UDDI does not really automatically solve your problems or make you a genius because you know how to use them. A dep
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Darn. The thought of Warner being my mother has really disturbed me. I think it is his goatee. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 9:04 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Darn. The thought of Warner being my mother has really disturbed. I think it is goatee. -Original Message- From: Ollie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:57 PM To: Jug Discuss Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Thanks mom -Original Message- From: Warner Onstine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:46:58 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Hi all, I hate to be the list mom here, but if you wish to make a personal post to Josh, please do so in private. I for one do not want to see this list descend into a flame-war or trading personal, inside jabs at another person. I know that this list is for Tucson Java User Group members and we feel comfortable with giving each other a few jabs now and then because we know each other and go out for drinks when the day is done. However, this is an open list for all to subscribe to in order to promote the openness of our group. While Josh has brought up points he has also added in jabs of his own (which I hope were in no way directed at anyone on the list). So, if you wish to respond to his points (and not his jabs) please do so, if you wish to respond to the jabs, please do so off-list, I have plenty of lists that descend into this territory on a regular basis already, I don't need my *home* list to look like this. Again, thanks for reading this, I'm not pointing the fingers at anyone here in particular and I don't want to turn this into a private list either, I just want to head this off at the pass before it gets bad. -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike Oliver CTO, Alarius Systems LLC Las Vegas, Nevada USA Sent using my BlackBerry 6510 from Nextel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Darn. The thought of Warner being my mother has really disturbed. I think it is goatee. -Original Message- From: Ollie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:57 PM To: Jug Discuss Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Thanks mom -Original Message- From: Warner Onstine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:46:58 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Hi all, I hate to be the list mom here, but if you wish to make a personal post to Josh, please do so in private. I for one do not want to see this list descend into a flame-war or trading personal, inside jabs at another person. I know that this list is for Tucson Java User Group members and we feel comfortable with giving each other a few jabs now and then because we know each other and go out for drinks when the day is done. However, this is an open list for all to subscribe to in order to promote the openness of our group. While Josh has brought up points he has also added in jabs of his own (which I hope were in no way directed at anyone on the list). So, if you wish to respond to his points (and not his jabs) please do so, if you wish to respond to the jabs, please do so off-list, I have plenty of lists that descend into this territory on a regular basis already, I don't need my *home* list to look like this. Again, thanks for reading this, I'm not pointing the fingers at anyone here in particular and I don't want to turn this into a private list either, I just want to head this off at the pass before it gets bad. -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike Oliver CTO, Alarius Systems LLC Las Vegas, Nevada USA Sent using my BlackBerry 6510 from Nextel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Please post that comment on my blog. I will respond to it there. I appreciate you taking the time to post such a huge comment. I will enjoy dissecting and responding to your logic. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:43 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Hello Richard, I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so I feel obligated to make a statement here. The general question that I am interested in is: how is Spring going to make my life easier? Although it claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that is designed to solve the very same problem as EJB(container managed persistence may not be high-performance, but I would not expect it to given the level of simplicity that it provides ). There is a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where various platforms claim to have solved the problem of a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in the end every distributed platform must have an index of its resources to be accessable. I think that Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what happened with JBoss. In california it is fashionable to be using the Spring framework( in the java server market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way more trouble than theyre worth. The kind of people who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems( seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring architects. To me it would appear that the best platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss. EJB programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower cost, easier maintenance. EJB is a well thought out technology designed to solve these problems. If I build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the cost/size curve is pretty steep. Not a cheap 'solution' if you ask me. The average mid size server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would estimate to cost ~$500K/year. you can find decent EJB people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ). Its almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps salaries high. The server architecture world is very over inflated right now. I think much of it has to do with the IBM marketing efforts. It is almost as if the same marketing manager from the mainframe department moved into Websphere. IBM in turn resorts to its common set of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ). Generally, IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with power/compatibility, and then sells a product that falls woefully short of their promises. In steps over priced architect to save the day. It is more of a social problem if anything. If the platform does not work, the 'architect' does not complain because it is his job to be an expert in this technology. The project manager never hears anything about websphere but what comes from IBM via trade journals. Meanwhile millions are being spent and no one is to blame. Not a good situation for business owner. In the 80s billions were lost in the CORBA world this way: too much technology is one way of looking at the situation. Web Services is another- these ideas of interoperability between business over digital network is not at all new( EDI was invented in the 70s I believe ). Using SOAP/XML-RPC/UDDI does not really automatically solve your problems or make you a genius because you know how to use them. A department who wants to employ these standards should just train the people they already have- invest a relatively small amount in having them learn XML( not difficult for a sysadmin developer ) and adapt it to the system they already know( and this activity of integration is the meat of the problem ). It just seems like Spring is another quick solution, liquid simplicity type product. The "J2EE without EJB" book generally suggest building a system with an array of disjointed OSS tools- all using parochial formats and APIs. Sounds like a huge liability to me. sincerely, Josh Zeidner --- Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is time." That's Rick > Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once put it: Spring > puts the OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What makes Spring > different than the other frameworks and containers, Hightower > explains, is that Spring goes beyond just being an IoC container or an > AOP framework. > > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735&de=1 > > The article (like the
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
The first day an article comes out it is littered with ads. Now the ads are gone. If you want to see what I wrote you can go to my blog, where is started or www.arc-mind.com where I feature it as an arc-mind news item. :o) -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 5:39 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 8, 2005, at 6:52 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: > "If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is time." That's Rick > Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once put it: Spring > puts the OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What makes Spring > different than the other frameworks and containers, Hightower > explains, is that Spring goes beyond just being an IoC container or an > AOP framework. > > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735&de=1 when does the article start? i gave up after scrolling through 14 ads! :/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
ey have chosen to move away from that, > but I've heard > many a story from developers (in this group and at > many conferences) > who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with > EJBs (even with > XDoclet added in). > > -warner > > On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: > > > > > One question: is there anyone on this list who > does > > not advocate the Spring Framework? > > > > -josh > > > > --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > >> well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least > your > >> ad > >> hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like > weve > >> got > >> a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt > mean > >> to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the > apple > >> cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated > reply > >> to some points... > >> > >> --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > >>> To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > >>> Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured > >> article > >>> on Spring > >>> > >>> > >>> Nicholas, > >>> > >>> Of course Spring is simpler! because it > doesn't > >>> try > >>> to solve as many problems, instead the developer > / > >>> architect has to write and support that code him > >> or > >>> herself! At the cost of the customer! > >>> > >>> I am surely not the only one in the Java world > >> who > >>> is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting > >> anyone( > >>> what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive > already > >>> been in enough heated discussions recently( > maybe > >>> some > >>> of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). > This > >>> is > >>> a list where Java subjects are discussed( I > think > >> ). > >>> > >>> > >>> In the end I would hope that a > >>> consultant/developer > >>> is offering his or her client either a > competitive > >>> advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, > >> the > >>> 'architects' rarely do either. > >>> > >>> I don't see it as some kind of coincidence > that > >> as > >>> soon as EJB development became affordable and > >>> accessible, that some 'expert' declares it > >> unusable > >>> for some reason, and invents some new technology > >>> that > >>> will save the day( and simultaneously a million > >>> professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you > want, > >>> you > >>> can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find > >> qualified > >>> developers through Sun's program, why delve into > >>> local > >>> meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) > what > >>> this technology does, 2)what people can utilize > >> it, > >>> 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much > >> cheaper > >>> to > >>> use these days- and the technology hasn't > changed. > >> > >>> > >>> Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB > 3 > >>> years ago when it payed well from the developer > >> end. > >>> > >>> What are they telling those customers today? > >>> > >>> These aren't bait questions, I am actually > >> looking > >>> for an answer to justify Spring. > >>> > >>>> Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) > >> know > >>>> which one we prefer, > >>>> AND which one is simpler. > >>> > >>> it certainly is better from the developer > >>> perspective. But if I were a project manager, > and > >> I > >>> am interested purely in the costs of development > >> and > >>> support, do you really think that Spring is > going > >> to > >>> be a better solution? What, if anything > justifies > >>> me > >>> adopting a panoply of object databases, > messaging > >>> frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS > >>> platform > >>> that has wide industry latitude and is very cost > >>> effective? It just does not really make sense > for > >>> the > >>> project manager. > >>> > >>> As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is > >> concerned, > >>> I > >>> have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both > >> more > >>> complex and less discrete than most programming > >>> languages. UML is another technology that has > had > === message truncated === __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Contrary to popular belief we don't all do Web development (I do, but that's me). As for advocating the use of Spring over EJB's I do for the following reasons: 1) Testability - You can much more easily mock up the classes you need and drop them into a Spring container (if need be, this isn't even necessary if you want to test singular classes) 2) It is a lightweight container - it doesn't require a full-blown EJB container in order to run (which also means that I could use Spring in the client side) 3) Spring allows you to use your own beans and doesn't require that you tie yourself to a container 4) Spring is much more than persistence (in fact that isn't even it's primary purpose, it happens that is it's current raison d'etre because of it's built-in ORM services), it makes it relatively painless to swap out Hibernate for JDO, iBatis, etc. What else? I never understood the reasoning behind EJB's (especially the fact that I had to create 4 or 5 files just to persist something). I will be the first to admit that I have not had a lot of experience with EJBs, but what I'm doing currently doesn't require me to, neither will my future development. Also, one of the key things that I love is that Hibernate's main developer, Gavin King, is helping to craft the new EJB 3 spec. This tells me that Hibernate is onto a good thing and Sun realizes it. I will let other's (who have had much more experience with EJBs to explain why they have chosen to move away from that, but I've heard many a story from developers (in this group and at many conferences) who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with EJBs (even with XDoclet added in). -warner On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? -josh --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply to some points... --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 years ago when it payed well from the developer end. What are they telling those customers today? These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking for an answer to justify Spring. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. it certainly is better from the developer perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I am interested purely in the costs of development and support, do you really think that Spring is going to be a better solution? What, if anything justifies me adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS platform that has wide industry latitude and is very cost effective? It just does not really make sense for the project manager. As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned, I have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both more complex and less discrete than most programming languages. UML is another technology that has had its chance during the CORBA era, and failed
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
I don't, I use Struts with my own extensions to the controller and I use Slide for Framework Managed persistence in versioned xml documents. I don't use EJBs or even an RDBMS. Ollie -Original Message- From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:08:38 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? -josh --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your > ad > hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve > got > a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean > to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple > cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply > to some points... > > --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > > -Original Message- > > From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > > To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > > Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured > article > > on Spring > > > > > > Nicholas, > > > > Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't > > try > > to solve as many problems, instead the developer / > > architect has to write and support that code him > or > > herself! At the cost of the customer! > > > > I am surely not the only one in the Java world > who > > is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting > anyone( > > what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already > > been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe > > some > > of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This > > is > > a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think > ). > > > > > > In the end I would hope that a > > consultant/developer > > is offering his or her client either a competitive > > advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, > the > > 'architects' rarely do either. > > > > I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that > as > > soon as EJB development became affordable and > > accessible, that some 'expert' declares it > unusable > > for some reason, and invents some new technology > > that > > will save the day( and simultaneously a million > > professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, > > you > > can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find > qualified > > developers through Sun's program, why delve into > > local > > meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what > > this technology does, 2)what people can utilize > it, > > 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much > cheaper > > to > > use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. > > > > > Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 > > years ago when it payed well from the developer > end. > > > > What are they telling those customers today? > > > > These aren't bait questions, I am actually > looking > > for an answer to justify Spring. > > > > > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) > know > > > which one we prefer, > > > AND which one is simpler. > > > > it certainly is better from the developer > > perspective. But if I were a project manager, and > I > > am interested purely in the costs of development > and > > support, do you really think that Spring is going > to > > be a better solution? What, if anything justifies > > me > > adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging > > frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS > > platform > > that has wide industry latitude and is very cost > > effective? It just does not really make sense for > > the > > project manager. > > > > As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is > concerned, > > I > > have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both > more > > complex and less discrete than most programming > > languages. UML is another technology that has had > > its > > chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer > any > > serious value. If you know anything about the > > history > > of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had > > become > > so complex and formalized that the only people who > > were qualified to write legal statutes had to > train > > for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this > > period > > wa
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? -josh --- josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your > ad > hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve > got > a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean > to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple > cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply > to some points... > > --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > > -Original Message- > > From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > > To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > > Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured > article > > on Spring > > > > > > Nicholas, > > > > Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't > > try > > to solve as many problems, instead the developer / > > architect has to write and support that code him > or > > herself! At the cost of the customer! > > > > I am surely not the only one in the Java world > who > > is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting > anyone( > > what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already > > been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe > > some > > of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This > > is > > a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think > ). > > > > > > In the end I would hope that a > > consultant/developer > > is offering his or her client either a competitive > > advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, > the > > 'architects' rarely do either. > > > > I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that > as > > soon as EJB development became affordable and > > accessible, that some 'expert' declares it > unusable > > for some reason, and invents some new technology > > that > > will save the day( and simultaneously a million > > professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, > > you > > can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find > qualified > > developers through Sun's program, why delve into > > local > > meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what > > this technology does, 2)what people can utilize > it, > > 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much > cheaper > > to > > use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. > > > > > Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 > > years ago when it payed well from the developer > end. > > > > What are they telling those customers today? > > > > These aren't bait questions, I am actually > looking > > for an answer to justify Spring. > > > > > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) > know > > > which one we prefer, > > > AND which one is simpler. > > > > it certainly is better from the developer > > perspective. But if I were a project manager, and > I > > am interested purely in the costs of development > and > > support, do you really think that Spring is going > to > > be a better solution? What, if anything justifies > > me > > adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging > > frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS > > platform > > that has wide industry latitude and is very cost > > effective? It just does not really make sense for > > the > > project manager. > > > > As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is > concerned, > > I > > have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both > more > > complex and less discrete than most programming > > languages. UML is another technology that has had > > its > > chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer > any > > serious value. If you know anything about the > > history > > of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had > > become > > so complex and formalized that the only people who > > were qualified to write legal statutes had to > train > > for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this > > period > > was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is > > often spoken about, but rarely used in practice. > It > > was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the > > empire were too high to justify its existence. In > > come the barbarians. Usually when I comment on > this > > someone immediately produces a UML document, but > > being > > in t
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Thanks mom -Original Message- From: Warner Onstine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:46:58 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Hi all, I hate to be the list mom here, but if you wish to make a personal post to Josh, please do so in private. I for one do not want to see this list descend into a flame-war or trading personal, inside jabs at another person. I know that this list is for Tucson Java User Group members and we feel comfortable with giving each other a few jabs now and then because we know each other and go out for drinks when the day is done. However, this is an open list for all to subscribe to in order to promote the openness of our group. While Josh has brought up points he has also added in jabs of his own (which I hope were in no way directed at anyone on the list). So, if you wish to respond to his points (and not his jabs) please do so, if you wish to respond to the jabs, please do so off-list, I have plenty of lists that descend into this territory on a regular basis already, I don't need my *home* list to look like this. Again, thanks for reading this, I'm not pointing the fingers at anyone here in particular and I don't want to turn this into a private list either, I just want to head this off at the pass before it gets bad. -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike Oliver CTO, Alarius Systems LLC Las Vegas, Nevada USA Sent using my BlackBerry 6510 from Nextel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Hi all, I hate to be the list mom here, but if you wish to make a personal post to Josh, please do so in private. I for one do not want to see this list descend into a flame-war or trading personal, inside jabs at another person. I know that this list is for Tucson Java User Group members and we feel comfortable with giving each other a few jabs now and then because we know each other and go out for drinks when the day is done. However, this is an open list for all to subscribe to in order to promote the openness of our group. While Josh has brought up points he has also added in jabs of his own (which I hope were in no way directed at anyone on the list). So, if you wish to respond to his points (and not his jabs) please do so, if you wish to respond to the jabs, please do so off-list, I have plenty of lists that descend into this territory on a regular basis already, I don't need my *home* list to look like this. Again, thanks for reading this, I'm not pointing the fingers at anyone here in particular and I don't want to turn this into a private list either, I just want to head this off at the pass before it gets bad. -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Josh, If you simply talked about the education, I.e. Facts, techinical merits etc, without the conspiracy theories about experts and nobody would object. Go watch some football and try not to think about what they are saying about you in the huddle...:-) Oh and words to the wise, this group has MANY certifiable “experts” that YOU attacked, many of those well past $100k. Some of those are really big guys too, and a few more than a little crazy, so proceed at your own risk. Ollie -Original Message- From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:21:40 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply to some points... --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > -Original Message- > From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article > on Spring > > > Nicholas, > > Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't > try > to solve as many problems, instead the developer / > architect has to write and support that code him or > herself! At the cost of the customer! > > I am surely not the only one in the Java world who > is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( > what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already > been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe > some > of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This > is > a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). > > > In the end I would hope that a > consultant/developer > is offering his or her client either a competitive > advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the > 'architects' rarely do either. > > I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as > soon as EJB development became affordable and > accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable > for some reason, and invents some new technology > that > will save the day( and simultaneously a million > professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, > you > can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified > developers through Sun's program, why delve into > local > meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what > this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, > 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper > to > use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. > > Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 > years ago when it payed well from the developer end. > > What are they telling those customers today? > > These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking > for an answer to justify Spring. > > > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know > > which one we prefer, > > AND which one is simpler. > > it certainly is better from the developer > perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I > am interested purely in the costs of development and > support, do you really think that Spring is going to > be a better solution? What, if anything justifies > me > adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging > frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS > platform > that has wide industry latitude and is very cost > effective? It just does not really make sense for > the > project manager. > > As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned, > I > have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both more > complex and less discrete than most programming > languages. UML is another technology that has had > its > chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer any > serious value. If you know anything about the > history > of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had > become > so complex and formalized that the only people who > were qualified to write legal statutes had to train > for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this > period > was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is > often spoken about, but rarely used in practice. It > was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the > empire were too high to justify its existence. In > come the barbarians. Usually when I comment on this > someone immediately produces a UML document, but > being > in the trenches I can tell you that there is way too > much overhead involved in actually utilizing this > visual language. >
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply to some points... --- Ollie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. > -Original Message- > From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 > To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org > Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article > on Spring > > > Nicholas, > > Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't > try > to solve as many problems, instead the developer / > architect has to write and support that code him or > herself! At the cost of the customer! > > I am surely not the only one in the Java world who > is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( > what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already > been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe > some > of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This > is > a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). > > > In the end I would hope that a > consultant/developer > is offering his or her client either a competitive > advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the > 'architects' rarely do either. > > I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as > soon as EJB development became affordable and > accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable > for some reason, and invents some new technology > that > will save the day( and simultaneously a million > professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, > you > can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified > developers through Sun's program, why delve into > local > meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what > this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, > 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper > to > use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. > > Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 > years ago when it payed well from the developer end. > > What are they telling those customers today? > > These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking > for an answer to justify Spring. > > > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know > > which one we prefer, > > AND which one is simpler. > > it certainly is better from the developer > perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I > am interested purely in the costs of development and > support, do you really think that Spring is going to > be a better solution? What, if anything justifies > me > adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging > frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS > platform > that has wide industry latitude and is very cost > effective? It just does not really make sense for > the > project manager. > > As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned, > I > have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both more > complex and less discrete than most programming > languages. UML is another technology that has had > its > chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer any > serious value. If you know anything about the > history > of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had > become > so complex and formalized that the only people who > were qualified to write legal statutes had to train > for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this > period > was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is > often spoken about, but rarely used in practice. It > was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the > empire were too high to justify its existence. In > come the barbarians. Usually when I comment on this > someone immediately produces a UML document, but > being > in the trenches I can tell you that there is way too > much overhead involved in actually utilizing this > visual language. > > If I were a manager I would be very wary of > Spring. > Sure there is less there, but that doesn't mean that > it is going to cost less. IBM has a lot to do with > this. They are a once the main source of industry > research data and the primary productizers. If that > doesn't spell *inflated costs* to you- take a look > at > the pharmaceutical industry. Microsoft has a > different character but they are equally troubled by > internal bureaucrats. I can tell you that this > combination coupled with what looks like a fallout > from Sun will create a lot of turmoil. Other kinds > of > apps will take center stage... > > &
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 years ago when it payed well from the developer end. What are they telling those customers today? These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking for an answer to justify Spring. > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know > which one we prefer, > AND which one is simpler. it certainly is better from the developer perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I am interested purely in the costs of development and support, do you really think that Spring is going to be a better solution? What, if anything justifies me adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS platform that has wide industry latitude and is very cost effective? It just does not really make sense for the project manager. As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned, I have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both more complex and less discrete than most programming languages. UML is another technology that has had its chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer any serious value. If you know anything about the history of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had become so complex and formalized that the only people who were qualified to write legal statutes had to train for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this period was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is often spoken about, but rarely used in practice. It was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the empire were too high to justify its existence. In come the barbarians. Usually when I comment on this someone immediately produces a UML document, but being in the trenches I can tell you that there is way too much overhead involved in actually utilizing this visual language. If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. Sure there is less there, but that doesn't mean that it is going to cost less. IBM has a lot to do with this. They are a once the main source of industry research data and the primary productizers. If that doesn't spell *inflated costs* to you- take a look at the pharmaceutical industry. Microsoft has a different character but they are equally troubled by internal bureaucrats. I can tell you that this combination coupled with what looks like a fallout from Sun will create a lot of turmoil. Other kinds of apps will take center stage... -josh --- Nicholas Lesiecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I > don't want 40 emails > in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on > BileBlog or the TSS > forums or somewhere if you must. > > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know > which one we prefer, > AND which one is simpler. Those interested in > debating the merits of > spring here can do so without resorting to phrases > like: > > "egghead $100K architects" > > and > > "seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch" > > yeesh! > > Nicholas Lesiecki > Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, > Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming > m: 520 591-1849 > > Books: > * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf > * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: > ht
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try... I refer you to: http://homestarrunner.com/sbemail20.html Drew will know what I'm talking about :-) Cheers, Nicholas Lesiecki Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming m: 520 591-1849 Books: * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: http://tinyurl.com/66vt Articles on AspectJ: * http://tinyurl.com/66vu and http://tinyurl.com/66vv On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 years ago when it payed well from the developer end. What are they telling those customers today? These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking for an answer to justify Spring. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. it certainly is better from the developer perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I am interested purely in the costs of development and support, do you really think that Spring is going to be a better solution? What, if anything justifies me adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS platform that has wide industry latitude and is very cost effective? It just does not really make sense for the project manager. As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned, I have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both more complex and less discrete than most programming languages. UML is another technology that has had its chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer any serious value. If you know anything about the history of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had become so complex and formalized that the only people who were qualified to write legal statutes had to train for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this period was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is often spoken about, but rarely used in practice. It was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the empire were too high to justify its existence. In come the barbarians. Usually when I comment on this someone immediately produces a UML document, but being in the trenches I can tell you that there is way too much overhead involved in actually utilizing this visual language. If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. Sure there is less there, but that doesn't mean that it is going to cost less. IBM has a lot to do with this. They are a once the main source of industry research data and the primary productizers. If that doesn't spell *inflated costs* to you- take a look at the pharmaceutical industry. Microsoft has a different character but they are equally troubled by internal bureaucrats. I can tell you that this combination coupled with what looks like a fallout from Sun will create a lot of turmoil. Other kinds of apps will take center stage... -josh --- Nicholas Lesiecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I don't want 40 emails in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on BileBlog or the TSS forums or somewhere if you must. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. Those interested in debating the merits of spring here can do so without resorting to phrases like: "egghead $100K architects" and "seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch" yeesh! Nicholas Lesiecki Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming m: 520 591-1849 Books: * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: http://tinyurl.com
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 years ago when it payed well from the developer end. What are they telling those customers today? These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking for an answer to justify Spring. > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know > which one we prefer, > AND which one is simpler. it certainly is better from the developer perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I am interested purely in the costs of development and support, do you really think that Spring is going to be a better solution? What, if anything justifies me adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS platform that has wide industry latitude and is very cost effective? It just does not really make sense for the project manager. As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned, I have seen millions wasted on UML. UML is both more complex and less discrete than most programming languages. UML is another technology that has had its chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer any serious value. If you know anything about the history of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had become so complex and formalized that the only people who were qualified to write legal statutes had to train for 20 years. The Latin that we know from this period was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is often spoken about, but rarely used in practice. It was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the empire were too high to justify its existence. In come the barbarians. Usually when I comment on this someone immediately produces a UML document, but being in the trenches I can tell you that there is way too much overhead involved in actually utilizing this visual language. If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. Sure there is less there, but that doesn't mean that it is going to cost less. IBM has a lot to do with this. They are a once the main source of industry research data and the primary productizers. If that doesn't spell *inflated costs* to you- take a look at the pharmaceutical industry. Microsoft has a different character but they are equally troubled by internal bureaucrats. I can tell you that this combination coupled with what looks like a fallout from Sun will create a lot of turmoil. Other kinds of apps will take center stage... -josh --- Nicholas Lesiecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I > don't want 40 emails > in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on > BileBlog or the TSS > forums or somewhere if you must. > > Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know > which one we prefer, > AND which one is simpler. Those interested in > debating the merits of > spring here can do so without resorting to phrases > like: > > "egghead $100K architects" > > and > > "seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch" > > yeesh! > > Nicholas Lesiecki > Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, > Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming > m: 520 591-1849 > > Books: > * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf > * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: > http://tinyurl.com/66vt > > Articles on AspectJ: > * http://tinyurl.com/66vu and > http://tinyurl.com/66vv Why is it that IBM is always involved in these things in some way? > On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:42 PM, josh zeidner wrote: > > > > > Hello Richard, > > > > I did make a recent comment about Spring on > Azipa so > > I feel obligated to make a statement here. The > > general question that I am interested in is: how > is > > Spring going to m
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
And three cheers to Timo for responding sensibly! Nicholas Lesiecki Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming m: 520 591-1849 Books: * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: http://tinyurl.com/66vt Articles on AspectJ: * http://tinyurl.com/66vu and http://tinyurl.com/66vv On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:21 PM, Ollie wrote: I agree with Nick that this forum is better served by postings that lead to greater knowlwdge than by personal opinions and especially when those opinions carry such obvious bias. I hope that doesn't mean we don't want personal opinion on this technology or that, but rather the opinons be based on technical merit not on neo socio political bias. I have found that someone that feels they must put down others that disagree are normally hiding their own inadequacies or self doubts. I use Struts and Slide and avoid EJBs, some on this list disagree with those choices but do not (at least publicly) put me down for those choices. The choice of Spring vs. Struts or JBoss is not a simple choice based on a Java World Poll, and certainly not because of some plot by evil architects to hold fees up. Ollie -Original Message- From: Nicholas Lesiecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:55:34 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I don't want 40 emails in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on BileBlog or the TSS forums or somewhere if you must. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. Those interested in debating the merits of spring here can do so without resorting to phrases like: "egghead $100K architects" and "seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch" yeesh! Nicholas Lesiecki Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming m: 520 591-1849 Books: * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: http://tinyurl.com/66vt Articles on AspectJ: * http://tinyurl.com/66vu and http://tinyurl.com/66vv On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:42 PM, josh zeidner wrote: Hello Richard, I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so I feel obligated to make a statement here. The general question that I am interested in is: how is Spring going to make my life easier? Although it claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that is designed to solve the very same problem as EJB(container managed persistence may not be high-performance, but I would not expect it to given the level of simplicity that it provides ). There is a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where various platforms claim to have solved the problem of a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in the end every distributed platform must have an index of its resources to be accessable. I think that Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what happened with JBoss. In california it is fashionable to be using the Spring framework( in the java server market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way more trouble than theyre worth. The kind of people who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems( seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring architects. To me it would appear that the best platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss. EJB programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower cost, easier maintenance. EJB is a well thought out technology designed to solve these problems. If I build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the cost/size curve is pretty steep. Not a cheap 'solution' if you ask me. The average mid size server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would estimate to cost ~$500K/year. you can find decent EJB people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ). Its almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps salaries high. The server architecture world is very over inflated right now. I think much of it has to do with the IBM marketing efforts. It is almost as if the same marketing manager from the mainframe department moved into Websphere. IBM in turn resorts to its common set of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ). Generally, IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with power/compatibility, and then sells a product that falls woefully short of their promises. In steps over priced architect to save the day. It is more of a social problem if anything. If the platform does not work, the 'archite
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
I agree with Nick that this forum is better served by postings that lead to greater knowlwdge than by personal opinions and especially when those opinions carry such obvious bias. I hope that doesn't mean we don't want personal opinion on this technology or that, but rather the opinons be based on technical merit not on neo socio political bias. I have found that someone that feels they must put down others that disagree are normally hiding their own inadequacies or self doubts. I use Struts and Slide and avoid EJBs, some on this list disagree with those choices but do not (at least publicly) put me down for those choices. The choice of Spring vs. Struts or JBoss is not a simple choice based on a Java World Poll, and certainly not because of some plot by evil architects to hold fees up. Ollie -Original Message- From: Nicholas Lesiecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:55:34 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I don't want 40 emails in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on BileBlog or the TSS forums or somewhere if you must. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. Those interested in debating the merits of spring here can do so without resorting to phrases like: "egghead $100K architects" and "seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch" yeesh! Nicholas Lesiecki Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming m: 520 591-1849 Books: * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: http://tinyurl.com/66vt Articles on AspectJ: * http://tinyurl.com/66vu and http://tinyurl.com/66vv On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:42 PM, josh zeidner wrote: > > Hello Richard, > > I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so > I feel obligated to make a statement here. The > general question that I am interested in is: how is > Spring going to make my life easier? Although it > claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of > EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that > is designed to solve the very same problem as > EJB(container managed persistence may not be > high-performance, but I would not expect it to given > the level of simplicity that it provides ). There is > a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where > various platforms claim to have solved the problem of > a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in > the end every distributed platform must have an index > of its resources to be accessable. I think that > Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what > happened with JBoss. In california it is fashionable > to be using the Spring framework( in the java server > market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid > himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way > more trouble than theyre worth. The kind of people > who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business > domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems( > seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). > Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring > architects. To me it would appear that the best > platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss. EJB > programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower > cost, easier maintenance. EJB is a well thought out > technology designed to solve these problems. If I > build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to > support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the > cost/size curve is pretty steep. Not a cheap > 'solution' if you ask me. The average mid size > server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would > estimate to cost ~$500K/year. you can find decent EJB > people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ). Its > almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the > level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps > salaries high. > > The server architecture world is very over inflated > right now. I think much of it has to do with the IBM > marketing efforts. It is almost as if the same > marketing manager from the mainframe department moved > into Websphere. IBM in turn resorts to its common set > of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ). Generally, > IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with > power/compatibility, and then sells a product that > falls woefully short of their promises. In steps over > priced architect to save the day. It is more of a > social problem if anything. If the platform does not > work, the 'architect' does not complain because it is > his job to be an expert in this technology. The > pr
RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Josh wrote: > Hello Richard, And what a lengthy note it was too. ;-) I'm not sure if he meant to send to the mailing list... but the email seems to have "flame bait" written all over it. Even though it was addressed to Richard, since it did make it onto the list, seems fair game to comment back. I'll only touch on two things: > how is Spring going to make my life easier? Good question. I kept asking it but nobody had a succinct answer beyond, "It let's you auto configure beans." Whoop Dee Doo. Whazzat mean? A colleague jumped in and started using Spring. I watched his cvs commits, and talked with him to find for myself what it does. Then I started trying Spring. Right now I'm using probably 5% of the f(n)... mostly to configure beans and use the JDBC template stuff. By "config beans" I mean instead of writing some "init() or boostrap() code to for ex. create and start up a DB Pooler, I stick it into the spring-main.xml, and then inject a connection from the pool into a DAO. The JDBC template stuff is just a handy wrapper to make raw JDBC prettier. > claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of > EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that > is designed to solve the very same problem as > EJB(container managed persistence My understanding is different... Spring just claims to be a minimalist framework that enables you to plug-in functionality. Kinda like Eclipse does nothing on it's own until you plug-in a compiler module. In that vein, Hibernate plugs in... and I'm under the impression that Hibernate 3.0 will be the "next official EJB" implementation. But it's still separate from Spring. Cheers, Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I don't want 40 emails in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on BileBlog or the TSS forums or somewhere if you must. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. Those interested in debating the merits of spring here can do so without resorting to phrases like: "egghead $100K architects" and "seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch" yeesh! Nicholas Lesiecki Software Craftsman, specializing in J2EE, Agile Methods, and aspect-oriented programming m: 520 591-1849 Books: * Mastering AspectJ: http://tinyurl.com/66vf * Java Tools for Extreme Programming: http://tinyurl.com/66vt Articles on AspectJ: * http://tinyurl.com/66vu and http://tinyurl.com/66vv On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:42 PM, josh zeidner wrote: Hello Richard, I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so I feel obligated to make a statement here. The general question that I am interested in is: how is Spring going to make my life easier? Although it claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that is designed to solve the very same problem as EJB(container managed persistence may not be high-performance, but I would not expect it to given the level of simplicity that it provides ). There is a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where various platforms claim to have solved the problem of a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in the end every distributed platform must have an index of its resources to be accessable. I think that Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what happened with JBoss. In california it is fashionable to be using the Spring framework( in the java server market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way more trouble than theyre worth. The kind of people who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems( seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring architects. To me it would appear that the best platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss. EJB programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower cost, easier maintenance. EJB is a well thought out technology designed to solve these problems. If I build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the cost/size curve is pretty steep. Not a cheap 'solution' if you ask me. The average mid size server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would estimate to cost ~$500K/year. you can find decent EJB people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ). Its almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps salaries high. The server architecture world is very over inflated right now. I think much of it has to do with the IBM marketing efforts. It is almost as if the same marketing manager from the mainframe department moved into Websphere. IBM in turn resorts to its common set of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ). Generally, IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with power/compatibility, and then sells a product that falls woefully short of their promises. In steps over priced architect to save the day. It is more of a social problem if anything. If the platform does not work, the 'architect' does not complain because it is his job to be an expert in this technology. The project manager never hears anything about websphere but what comes from IBM via trade journals. Meanwhile millions are being spent and no one is to blame. Not a good situation for business owner. In the 80s billions were lost in the CORBA world this way: too much technology is one way of looking at the situation. Web Services is another- these ideas of interoperability between business over digital network is not at all new( EDI was invented in the 70s I believe ). Using SOAP/XML-RPC/UDDI does not really automatically solve your problems or make you a genius because you know how to use them. A department who wants to employ these standards should just train the people they already have- invest a relatively small amount in having them learn XML( not difficult for a sysadmin developer ) and adapt it to the system they already know( and this activity of integration is the meat of the problem ). It just seems like Spring is another quick solution, liquid simplicity type product. The "J2EE without EJB" book generally suggest building a system with an array of disjointed OSS tools- all using parochial formats and APIs. Sounds like a huge liability to me. sincerely, Josh Zeidner --- Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is time." That's Rick Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once put it: Spring puts the OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What makes
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Hello Richard, I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so I feel obligated to make a statement here. The general question that I am interested in is: how is Spring going to make my life easier? Although it claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that is designed to solve the very same problem as EJB(container managed persistence may not be high-performance, but I would not expect it to given the level of simplicity that it provides ). There is a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where various platforms claim to have solved the problem of a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in the end every distributed platform must have an index of its resources to be accessable. I think that Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what happened with JBoss. In california it is fashionable to be using the Spring framework( in the java server market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way more trouble than theyre worth. The kind of people who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems( seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring architects. To me it would appear that the best platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss. EJB programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower cost, easier maintenance. EJB is a well thought out technology designed to solve these problems. If I build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the cost/size curve is pretty steep. Not a cheap 'solution' if you ask me. The average mid size server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would estimate to cost ~$500K/year. you can find decent EJB people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ). Its almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps salaries high. The server architecture world is very over inflated right now. I think much of it has to do with the IBM marketing efforts. It is almost as if the same marketing manager from the mainframe department moved into Websphere. IBM in turn resorts to its common set of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ). Generally, IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with power/compatibility, and then sells a product that falls woefully short of their promises. In steps over priced architect to save the day. It is more of a social problem if anything. If the platform does not work, the 'architect' does not complain because it is his job to be an expert in this technology. The project manager never hears anything about websphere but what comes from IBM via trade journals. Meanwhile millions are being spent and no one is to blame. Not a good situation for business owner. In the 80s billions were lost in the CORBA world this way: too much technology is one way of looking at the situation. Web Services is another- these ideas of interoperability between business over digital network is not at all new( EDI was invented in the 70s I believe ). Using SOAP/XML-RPC/UDDI does not really automatically solve your problems or make you a genius because you know how to use them. A department who wants to employ these standards should just train the people they already have- invest a relatively small amount in having them learn XML( not difficult for a sysadmin developer ) and adapt it to the system they already know( and this activity of integration is the meat of the problem ). It just seems like Spring is another quick solution, liquid simplicity type product. The "J2EE without EJB" book generally suggest building a system with an array of disjointed OSS tools- all using parochial formats and APIs. Sounds like a huge liability to me. sincerely, Josh Zeidner --- Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is > time." That's Rick > Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once > put it: Spring puts the > OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What > makes Spring different than > the other frameworks and containers, Hightower > explains, is that Spring goes > beyond just being an IoC container or an AOP > framework. > > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735&de=1 > > The article (like the last one I wrote) started out > as being a blog entry > (http://jroller.com/page/RickHigh/20050107#spring_plug). > > It is nice when the JDJ picks it up and gives it > more exposure. The last > blog entry turned article I wrote was read quite a > bit according to the JDJ > folks. > > I've written some follow up ideas at: > > http://www.arc-mind.com/papers/springIsGood.html > > > > > -- r i c kh i g h t o w e r > -- Senior Mentor > -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- http://www.arc-mind.com > -- p: 520-290-6855 > -- m: 520-661-6753 > -- f: 520-2
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Richard Hightower wrote: "If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is time." That's Rick Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once put it: Spring puts the OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What makes Spring different than the other frameworks and containers, Hightower explains, is that Spring goes beyond just being an IoC container or an AOP framework. http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735&de=1 The article (like the last one I wrote) started out as being a blog entry (http://jroller.com/page/RickHigh/20050107#spring_plug). It is nice when the JDJ picks it up and gives it more exposure. The last blog entry turned article I wrote was read quite a bit according to the JDJ folks. I've written some follow up ideas at: http://www.arc-mind.com/papers/springIsGood.html Rick is the Stephen King of the Java writing world. - Drew -- +-+ < Drew Davidson | OGNL Technology > +-+ | Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / |Web: http://www.ognl.org / |Vox: (520) 531-1966 < |Fax: (520) 531-1965\ | Mobile: (520) 405-2967 \ +-+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
On Jan 8, 2005, at 6:52 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: "If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is time." That's Rick Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once put it: Spring puts the OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What makes Spring different than the other frameworks and containers, Hightower explains, is that Spring goes beyond just being an IoC container or an AOP framework. http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735&de=1 when does the article start? i gave up after scrolling through 14 ads! :/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
"If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is time." That's Rick Hightower's New Year's advice. "As Rod Johnson once put it: Spring puts the OO back in J2EE development," he continues. What makes Spring different than the other frameworks and containers, Hightower explains, is that Spring goes beyond just being an IoC container or an AOP framework. http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735&de=1 The article (like the last one I wrote) started out as being a blog entry (http://jroller.com/page/RickHigh/20050107#spring_plug). It is nice when the JDJ picks it up and gives it more exposure. The last blog entry turned article I wrote was read quite a bit according to the JDJ folks. I've written some follow up ideas at: http://www.arc-mind.com/papers/springIsGood.html -- r i c kh i g h t o w e r -- Senior Mentor -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.arc-mind.com -- p: 520-290-6855 -- m: 520-661-6753 -- f: 520-290-4179 -- 15378 e colossal cave rd -- Tucson, AZ 85641 Upcoming conferences: JSF QuickStart: San Diego, CA, 10/9/04-10/11 JSF QuickStart: Santa Clara, CA, 10/16/04-10/17 JSF QuickStart: Los Angeles, CA, 10/23/04-10/24 JSF QuickStart: Phoenix, AZ, 11/6/04-11/05 JSF QuickStart: Houston, TX, 11/13/04-11/14 JSF QuickStart: Dallas, TX, 11/20/04-11/21 JSF QuickStart: Boston, MA, 12/04/04-12/05 JSF QuickStart: Seattle, WA, 12/11/04-12/12 JSF QuickStart: Las Vegas, NV, 12/18/04-12/19 See for more info: http://www.arc-mind.com/courses/jsfCourseWeekendWarriorEdition.html New Publications: Warner Onstine & Rick Hightower have a new book, "Professional Java Tools for Extreme Programming : Ant, XDoclet, JUnit, Cactus, & Maven", available now at your local bookstore and Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764556177/ Rick Hightower has two new books, "Professional Jakarta Struts", available now aat your local bookstore and Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764544373 and "Struts Live" available through SourceBeat.com: http://www.sourcebeat.com/TitleAction.do?id=3 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
