Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
On 06.03.2013 23:06, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: Hi, Michaël wrote: Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to be able to do that with just mouse. ok, i get the touchscreen. the other user should simply put the coffee cup away ;) how about a stop button, similar to what browsers have? on the other hand. it was never requested before. so why hurry now? In addition, right now changing tools on-the-fly, like from draw polygon into draw line, leaves phantom lines on the screen and for new users it may be hard to understand why it happens. for edit toolbar: they'll disappear as soon as switching cursortools cancels drawing again for quasimode (shortcuts): it's either that or cancelling. keeping it there as a visual representation of the geometry in the works sound reasonable to me as the opposite to make it invisible while in a different quasimode. I don' understand if the change between previous and current versions when you reselect the digitizing tool to cancel editing (which is no more possible) was motivated by the new framework (which makes it difficult/impossible/hackish to cancel like that) or by your personnal feeling that it is better like that. I have no strong opinion about it except that it makes cancellation keyboard dependant. Would double-click on the editing tool be an alternative ? i'd suggest to change the icon in the edit toolbox to the same with a red x to visualize users can stop digitizing by clicking on it again. kind of like a more elegant stop button. don't feel the urgency to implement though. We may think why user selects another tool. Probably he thinks that the current tool was wrong and he wants to use another. If that is the situation then why to force user to do Cancel - Select another tool if plain Select another tool and automatic cancelling would do the same with less clicks? It is another story if we want to offer a possibility to leave features open for future edits. there is still the option of cancel/keep to allow users to use other tools as you mention below. 2) - It is essential to be able to pan and zoom and continue to draw a long linestring or big polygon after that. In OpenJUMP this is possible by using the keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it is the only way. User cannot use for example Pan or Zoom tools from the main menu because selecting another tool cancels drawing. Do not understand. Isn't it just the other way ? Selecting zoom/pan tool from the main tool menu does not interrupt drawing, you just have to select the editing tool again to go on. Or did I miss something ? Yes, you missed that I was using the release version of OJ with the traditional behaviour while writing that. It is not a wonder because I did not tell that. I am sorry. i vote for assuming our users have a keyboard for now. if the age of desktop gis really moves on to the tablet gis we will talk about that soon enough. - Digitizing with Pan/Zoom keyboard shortcuts is nice and efficient but user needs to know how to use the shortcuts. It is probably not evident for new users. - Panning and zooming during drawing is not possible without keyboard. - QGis does not have at all as nice shortcuts for digitizing. It does have configurable shortcuts but they are not as nice to use (my opinion). - QGis does not cancel drawing if another tool is selected. Actually the default way to digitize seems to be to draw as long it is possible, select Pan tool, pan, select drawing tool, continue drawing, select Pan tool etc. I wouldn' t like to work that way but it is easy for the beginners and user do not need to touch the keyboard while drawing. i like the approach, but that probably need more love, if we want to have that in OJ. - uDig cancels drawing when another tool is selected. - QGis and uDig are not totally comparable with OpenJUMP because they allow only one geometry type per layer and only one layer at a time can be editable. 3) - I do not see a
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
i'd suggest to change the icon in the edit toolbox to the same with a red x to visualize users can stop digitizing by clicking on it again. kind of like a more elegant stop button. There are also Advanced measure tools which are affected by this phantom problem, and maybe other ones too. I don't feel that an x would be a final solution but probably it opens other methodological problems. I say methological because I feel that Ede, Jukka and Michaels reflect different point of view the way they use OJ. I also don't like these phantoms and I know that this belongs to the way I use OpenJUMP (heavily work of digitalizing and less analysis) and the also the matter I use OJ with beginners (students at my small lessons at University): I am just thinking about many screens full of phantoms, ghosts and shadows crossing each other. I also feel that it is difficult to change a habit without making lots of mistakes (and lots of phantoms on the screen) On the other hand i don't want to loose the great job made by Ede and I consider also the time he spends around shortcuts I think that there could be two solutions: 1) we leave Ede's work as it is, but we have to accept for the next future that users will mail our list (included bug list) about phantoms, asking o solve it. This means that the problem will come and come again 2) we should consider to open a branch of developing on SourceForge where it is possible to go on working on shortcuts and related new problems, in this case we must give our availability to go on testing. While new OJ 1.6 should start from OpenJUMP-20130224-r3272, the last before Ede's modification. By the time that we feel sure that everything is working fine with shortcuts, there we can have a new OJ realize version, 2.X, in this case, reflecting what is written in our Version polycy ( http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/jump-pilot/index.php?title=OpenJUMP_Roadmap#Version_policy ) - First number change is for a new major version. It can break compatibility in OpenJUMP core (refactoring) and add important new features. Ede's shortcuts and all possible modification on how to draw will break compatibility, in my point of view. my 2 cents Peppe 2013/3/7 edgar.sol...@web.de On 06.03.2013 23:06, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: Hi, Michaël wrote: Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to be able to do that with just mouse. ok, i get the touchscreen. the other user should simply put the coffee cup away ;) how about a stop button, similar to what browsers have? on the other hand. it was never requested before. so why hurry now? In addition, right now changing tools on-the-fly, like from draw polygon into draw line, leaves phantom lines on the screen and for new users it may be hard to understand why it happens. for edit toolbar: they'll disappear as soon as switching cursortools cancels drawing again for quasimode (shortcuts): it's either that or cancelling. keeping it there as a visual representation of the geometry in the works sound reasonable to me as the opposite to make it invisible while in a different quasimode. I don' understand if the change between previous and current versions when you reselect the digitizing tool to cancel editing (which is no more possible) was motivated by the new framework (which makes it difficult/impossible/hackish to cancel like that) or by your personnal feeling that it is better like that. I have no strong opinion about it except that it makes cancellation keyboard dependant. Would double-click on the editing tool be an alternative ? i'd suggest to change the icon in the edit toolbox to the same with a red x to visualize users can stop digitizing by clicking on it again. kind of like a more elegant stop button. don't feel the urgency to implement though. We may think why user selects another tool. Probably he thinks that the current tool was wrong and he wants to use another. If that is the situation then why to force user to do Cancel
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
hmm.. actually i modified a lot of code, and something might be broken.. but i tried to keep interfaces as they were, so i don't see no reason to change the major version. i guess the first major version change should be an additional plugin interface with appropriate plugin manager.. if it'll happen at all. also, let's not talk about branches again. too much work, also release early, release often as we do it with the snapshots. the shortcut changes really need a broader audience to test them, so let's finish it up neatly and release it with 1.6 . we'll probably do one to two bugfix releases pretty fast then for bugs that slipped through the cracks, but that is to be expected anyway. regarding the ghost shapes: that's really no big issue, i'll just restore the old behavior, and we're done. all the talk about it is a mere spitballing about what could the future bring. .. so far, so nice.. ede On 07.03.2013 16:42, Giuseppe Aruta wrote: i'd suggest to change the icon in the edit toolbox to the same with a red x to visualize users can stop digitizing by clicking on it again. kind of like a more elegant stop button. There are also Advanced measure tools which are affected by this phantom problem, and maybe other ones too. I don't feel that an x would be a final solution but probably it opens other methodological problems. I say methological because I feel that Ede, Jukka and Michaels reflect different point of view the way they use OJ. I also don't like these phantoms and I know that this belongs to the way I use OpenJUMP (heavily work of digitalizing and less analysis) and the also the matter I use OJ with beginners (students at my small lessons at University): I am just thinking about many screens full of phantoms, ghosts and shadows crossing each other. I also feel that it is difficult to change a habit without making lots of mistakes (and lots of phantoms on the screen) On the other hand i don't want to loose the great job made by Ede and I consider also the time he spends around shortcuts I think that there could be two solutions: 1) we leave Ede's work as it is, but we have to accept for the next future that users will mail our list (included bug list) about phantoms, asking o solve it. This means that the problem will come and come again 2) we should consider to open a branch of developing on SourceForge where it is possible to go on working on shortcuts and related new problems, in this case we must give our availability to go on testing. While new OJ 1.6 should start from OpenJUMP-20130224-r3272, the last before Ede's modification. By the time that we feel sure that everything is working fine with shortcuts, there we can have a new OJ realize version, 2.X, in this case, reflecting what is written in our Version polycy (http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/jump-pilot/index.php?title=OpenJUMP_Roadmap#Version_policy) * First number change is for a new major version. It can break compatibility in OpenJUMP core (refactoring) and add important new features. Ede's shortcuts and all possible modification on how to draw will break compatibility, in my point of view. my 2 cents Peppe 2013/3/7 edgar.sol...@web.de mailto:edgar.sol...@web.de On 06.03.2013 23 tel:06.03.2013%2023:06, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: Hi, Michaël wrote: Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to be able to do that with just mouse. ok, i get the touchscreen. the other user should simply put the coffee cup away ;) how about a stop button, similar to what browsers have? on the other hand. it was never requested before. so why hurry now? In addition, right now changing tools on-the-fly, like from draw polygon into draw line, leaves phantom lines on the screen and for new users it may be hard to understand why it happens. for edit toolbar: they'll disappear as soon as
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
Big Ede!! ;-) 2013/3/7 edgar.sol...@web.de hmm.. actually i modified a lot of code, and something might be broken.. but i tried to keep interfaces as they were, so i don't see no reason to change the major version. i guess the first major version change should be an additional plugin interface with appropriate plugin manager.. if it'll happen at all. also, let's not talk about branches again. too much work, also release early, release often as we do it with the snapshots. the shortcut changes really need a broader audience to test them, so let's finish it up neatly and release it with 1.6 . we'll probably do one to two bugfix releases pretty fast then for bugs that slipped through the cracks, but that is to be expected anyway. regarding the ghost shapes: that's really no big issue, i'll just restore the old behavior, and we're done. all the talk about it is a mere spitballing about what could the future bring. .. so far, so nice.. ede On 07.03.2013 16:42, Giuseppe Aruta wrote: i'd suggest to change the icon in the edit toolbox to the same with a red x to visualize users can stop digitizing by clicking on it again. kind of like a more elegant stop button. There are also Advanced measure tools which are affected by this phantom problem, and maybe other ones too. I don't feel that an x would be a final solution but probably it opens other methodological problems. I say methological because I feel that Ede, Jukka and Michaels reflect different point of view the way they use OJ. I also don't like these phantoms and I know that this belongs to the way I use OpenJUMP (heavily work of digitalizing and less analysis) and the also the matter I use OJ with beginners (students at my small lessons at University): I am just thinking about many screens full of phantoms, ghosts and shadows crossing each other. I also feel that it is difficult to change a habit without making lots of mistakes (and lots of phantoms on the screen) On the other hand i don't want to loose the great job made by Ede and I consider also the time he spends around shortcuts I think that there could be two solutions: 1) we leave Ede's work as it is, but we have to accept for the next future that users will mail our list (included bug list) about phantoms, asking o solve it. This means that the problem will come and come again 2) we should consider to open a branch of developing on SourceForge where it is possible to go on working on shortcuts and related new problems, in this case we must give our availability to go on testing. While new OJ 1.6 should start from OpenJUMP-20130224-r3272, the last before Ede's modification. By the time that we feel sure that everything is working fine with shortcuts, there we can have a new OJ realize version, 2.X, in this case, reflecting what is written in our Version polycy ( http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/jump-pilot/index.php?title=OpenJUMP_Roadmap#Version_policy ) * First number change is for a new major version. It can break compatibility in OpenJUMP core (refactoring) and add important new features. Ede's shortcuts and all possible modification on how to draw will break compatibility, in my point of view. my 2 cents Peppe 2013/3/7 edgar.sol...@web.de mailto:edgar.sol...@web.de On 06.03.2013 23 tel:06.03.2013%2023:06, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: Hi, Michaël wrote: Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to be able to do that with just mouse. ok, i get the touchscreen. the other user should simply put the coffee cup away ;) how about a stop button, similar to what browsers have? on the other hand. it was never requested before. so why hurry now? In addition, right now changing tools on-the-fly, like from draw polygon into draw line, leaves phantom lines on the screen and for new users it may be hard to understand why it
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
actually i am quite short.. about 1,65 meters ;P ..ede On 07.03.2013 19:05, Giuseppe Aruta wrote: Big Ede!! ;-) 2013/3/7 edgar.sol...@web.de mailto:edgar.sol...@web.de hmm.. actually i modified a lot of code, and something might be broken.. but i tried to keep interfaces as they were, so i don't see no reason to change the major version. i guess the first major version change should be an additional plugin interface with appropriate plugin manager.. if it'll happen at all. also, let's not talk about branches again. too much work, also release early, release often as we do it with the snapshots. the shortcut changes really need a broader audience to test them, so let's finish it up neatly and release it with 1.6 . we'll probably do one to two bugfix releases pretty fast then for bugs that slipped through the cracks, but that is to be expected anyway. regarding the ghost shapes: that's really no big issue, i'll just restore the old behavior, and we're done. all the talk about it is a mere spitballing about what could the future bring. .. so far, so nice.. ede On 07.03.2013 16 tel:07.03.2013%2016:42, Giuseppe Aruta wrote: i'd suggest to change the icon in the edit toolbox to the same with a red x to visualize users can stop digitizing by clicking on it again. kind of like a more elegant stop button. There are also Advanced measure tools which are affected by this phantom problem, and maybe other ones too. I don't feel that an x would be a final solution but probably it opens other methodological problems. I say methological because I feel that Ede, Jukka and Michaels reflect different point of view the way they use OJ. I also don't like these phantoms and I know that this belongs to the way I use OpenJUMP (heavily work of digitalizing and less analysis) and the also the matter I use OJ with beginners (students at my small lessons at University): I am just thinking about many screens full of phantoms, ghosts and shadows crossing each other. I also feel that it is difficult to change a habit without making lots of mistakes (and lots of phantoms on the screen) On the other hand i don't want to loose the great job made by Ede and I consider also the time he spends around shortcuts I think that there could be two solutions: 1) we leave Ede's work as it is, but we have to accept for the next future that users will mail our list (included bug list) about phantoms, asking o solve it. This means that the problem will come and come again 2) we should consider to open a branch of developing on SourceForge where it is possible to go on working on shortcuts and related new problems, in this case we must give our availability to go on testing. While new OJ 1.6 should start from OpenJUMP-20130224-r3272, the last before Ede's modification. By the time that we feel sure that everything is working fine with shortcuts, there we can have a new OJ realize version, 2.X, in this case, reflecting what is written in our Version polycy (http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/jump-pilot/index.php?title=OpenJUMP_Roadmap#Version_policy) * First number change is for a new major version. It can break compatibility in OpenJUMP core (refactoring) and add important new features. Ede's shortcuts and all possible modification on how to draw will break compatibility, in my point of view. my 2 cents Peppe 2013/3/7 edgar.sol...@web.de mailto:edgar.sol...@web.de mailto:edgar.sol...@web.de mailto:edgar.sol...@web.de On 06.03.2013 23 tel:06.03.2013%2023 tel:06.03.2013%2023:06, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: Hi, Michaël wrote: Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
On 06.03.2013 16:08, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: Hi, I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. there is still the option of cancel/keep to allow users to use other tools as you mention below. 2) - It is essential to be able to pan and zoom and continue to draw a long linestring or big polygon after that. In OpenJUMP this is possible by using the keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it is the only way. User cannot use for example Pan or Zoom tools from the main menu because selecting another tool cancels drawing. - Digitizing with Pan/Zoom keyboard shortcuts is nice and efficient but user needs to know how to use the shortcuts. It is probably not evident for new users. - Panning and zooming during drawing is not possible without keyboard. - QGis does not have at all as nice shortcuts for digitizing. It does have configurable shortcuts but they are not as nice to use (my opinion). - QGis does not cancel drawing if another tool is selected. Actually the default way to digitize seems to be to draw as long it is possible, select Pan tool, pan, select drawing tool, continue drawing, select Pan tool etc. I wouldn' t like to work that way but it is easy for the beginners and user do not need to touch the keyboard while drawing. - uDig cancels drawing when another tool is selected. - QGis and uDig are not totally comparable with OpenJUMP because they allow only one geometry type per layer and only one layer at a time can be editable. 3) - I do not see a reason for keeping not ready digitized feature open if it is not compulsory like it is with the QGis way to do use panning. Except one use case which I will tell later. For me it is OK to cancel drawing without asking if user selects another tool. noted. 4) - However, if OpenJUMP should be used for digitizing with GPS a possibility to keep feature open for digitizing would be very good thing. It may take 5 minutes to walk to the next vertex when you are out in the field and if you see something else that should be recorded on another layer you would like to interrupt, save point or vertex of another feature and continue gathering points to your first feature. However, for efficient work user should be able to keep however many features open and user interface should be made to support selecting which not ready feature to continue. It is not so simple but I know one old PDA software (SOLO Field) where this was implemented well. sounds complicated to implement. when users can keep one geometry unfinished, they will ask why not another one as well? for such use case i suggest to collect point on a layer per feature an merge them when finished or simply add point to a multipoint/linestring via add vertex 5) - We should perhaps think a bit more about making it somehow possible to digitize without keyboard because It may be that Windows 8 computers with touchscreen and keyboard will come more common. There was discussion about a related thing last year, read SuperZoom and other zoom/pan tools from http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.jump.devel/month=20120201. Perhaps improved SuperZoom tool could be a good solution. Let's hope Matthias hears and buys a laptop with touchscreen and does some testing :) another bridge i'd like to cross when we get there.. although javabased we do not even run on Android.. ;P That's all for today. tl;dr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Too_long;_didn%27t_read just joking.. thanks for all your input!... ede -- Symantec Endpoint Protection 12 positioned as A LEADER in The Forrester Wave(TM): Endpoint Security, Q1 2013 and remains a good choice in the endpoint security space. For insight on selecting the right partner to tackle endpoint security challenges, access the full report. http://p.sf.net/sfu/symantec-dev2dev ___ Jump-pilot-devel mailing list Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
Hi Jukka, I will take sometimes to think about your post. I want only to point out (Note 2 and 5) that there is an alternative to pan/zoom without keyboard. It is on right click context menu where there are zoom in and out and center zoom which could be used as a substitute for pan shortcut. Peppe 2013/3/6 Rahkonen Jukka jukka.rahko...@mmmtike.fi Hi, I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. 2) - It is essential to be able to pan and zoom and continue to draw a long linestring or big polygon after that. In OpenJUMP this is possible by using the keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it is the only way. User cannot use for example Pan or Zoom tools from the main menu because selecting another tool cancels drawing. - Digitizing with Pan/Zoom keyboard shortcuts is nice and efficient but user needs to know how to use the shortcuts. It is probably not evident for new users. - Panning and zooming during drawing is not possible without keyboard. - QGis does not have at all as nice shortcuts for digitizing. It does have configurable shortcuts but they are not as nice to use (my opinion). - QGis does not cancel drawing if another tool is selected. Actually the default way to digitize seems to be to draw as long it is possible, select Pan tool, pan, select drawing tool, continue drawing, select Pan tool etc. I wouldn' t like to work that way but it is easy for the beginners and user do not need to touch the keyboard while drawing. - uDig cancels drawing when another tool is selected. - QGis and uDig are not totally comparable with OpenJUMP because they allow only one geometry type per layer and only one layer at a time can be editable. 3) - I do not see a reason for keeping not ready digitized feature open if it is not compulsory like it is with the QGis way to do use panning. Except one use case which I will tell later. For me it is OK to cancel drawing without asking if user selects another tool. 4) - However, if OpenJUMP should be used for digitizing with GPS a possibility to keep feature open for digitizing would be very good thing. It may take 5 minutes to walk to the next vertex when you are out in the field and if you see something else that should be recorded on another layer you would like to interrupt, save point or vertex of another feature and continue gathering points to your first feature. However, for efficient work user should be able to keep however many features open and user interface should be made to support selecting which not ready feature to continue. It is not so simple but I know one old PDA software (SOLO Field) where this was implemented well. 5) - We should perhaps think a bit more about making it somehow possible to digitize without keyboard because It may be that Windows 8 computers with touchscreen and keyboard will come more common. There was discussion about a related thing last year, read SuperZoom and other zoom/pan tools from http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.jump.devel/month=20120201. Perhaps improved SuperZoom tool could be a good solution. Let's hope Matthias hears and buys a laptop with touchscreen and does some testing :) That's all for today. -Jukka Rahkonen- -- Symantec Endpoint Protection 12 positioned as A LEADER in The Forrester Wave(TM): Endpoint Security, Q1 2013 and remains a good choice in the endpoint security space. For insight on selecting the right partner to tackle endpoint security challenges, access the full report. http://p.sf.net/sfu/symantec-dev2dev ___ Jump-pilot-devel mailing list Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel -- Symantec Endpoint Protection 12 positioned as A LEADER in The Forrester Wave(TM): Endpoint Security, Q1 2013 and remains a good choice in the endpoint security space. For insight on selecting the right partner to tackle endpoint security challenges, access the full report. http://p.sf.net/sfu/symantec-dev2dev___ Jump-pilot-devel mailing list Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. I don' understand if the change between previous and current versions when you reselect the digitizing tool to cancel editing (which is no more possible) was motivated by the new framework (which makes it difficult/impossible/hackish to cancel like that) or by your personnal feeling that it is better like that. I have no strong opinion about it except that it makes cancellation keyboard dependant. Would double-click on the editing tool be an alternative ? there is still the option of cancel/keep to allow users to use other tools as you mention below. 2) - It is essential to be able to pan and zoom and continue to draw a long linestring or big polygon after that. In OpenJUMP this is possible by using the keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it is the only way. User cannot use for example Pan or Zoom tools from the main menu because selecting another tool cancels drawing. Do not understand. Isn't it just the other way ? Selecting zoom/pan tool from the main tool menu does not interrupt drawing, you just have to select the editing tool again to go on. Or did I miss something ? - Digitizing with Pan/Zoom keyboard shortcuts is nice and efficient but user needs to know how to use the shortcuts. It is probably not evident for new users. - Panning and zooming during drawing is not possible without keyboard. - QGis does not have at all as nice shortcuts for digitizing. It does have configurable shortcuts but they are not as nice to use (my opinion). - QGis does not cancel drawing if another tool is selected. Actually the default way to digitize seems to be to draw as long it is possible, select Pan tool, pan, select drawing tool, continue drawing, select Pan tool etc. I wouldn' t like to work that way but it is easy for the beginners and user do not need to touch the keyboard while drawing. - uDig cancels drawing when another tool is selected. - QGis and uDig are not totally comparable with OpenJUMP because they allow only one geometry type per layer and only one layer at a time can be editable. 3) - I do not see a reason for keeping not ready digitized feature open if it is not compulsory like it is with the QGis way to do use panning. Except one use case which I will tell later. For me it is OK to cancel drawing without asking if user selects another tool. You mean there is no reason for keeping not ready digitized feature except during zooming / panning operation. I agree this is not esssential. I do not see disadvantage though (maybe it is unusual and the user can feel the UI is buggy if it does not understand how it works). Michaël 4) - However, if OpenJUMP should be used for digitizing with GPS a possibility to keep feature open for digitizing would be very good thing. It may take 5 minutes to walk to the next vertex when you are out in the field and if you see something else that should be recorded on another layer you would like to interrupt, save point or vertex of another feature and continue gathering points to your first feature. However, for efficient work user should be able to keep however many features open and user interface should be made to support selecting which not ready feature to continue. It is not so simple but I know one old PDA software (SOLO Field) where this was implemented well. sounds complicated to implement. when users can keep one geometry unfinished, they will ask why not another one as well? for such use case i suggest to collect point on a layer per feature an merge them when finished or simply add point to a multipoint/linestring via add vertex 5) - We should perhaps think a bit more about making it somehow possible to digitize without keyboard because It may be that Windows 8 computers with touchscreen and keyboard will come more common. There was discussion about a related thing last year, read SuperZoom and other zoom/pan tools from http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.jump.devel/month=20120201. Perhaps improved SuperZoom tool could be a good solution. Let's hope Matthias hears and buys a laptop with touchscreen and does some testing :)
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
Hi, Michaël wrote: Hi, I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to be able to do that with just mouse. In addition, right now changing tools on-the-fly, like from draw polygon into draw line, leaves phantom lines on the screen and for new users it may be hard to understand why it happens. I don' understand if the change between previous and current versions when you reselect the digitizing tool to cancel editing (which is no more possible) was motivated by the new framework (which makes it difficult/impossible/hackish to cancel like that) or by your personnal feeling that it is better like that. I have no strong opinion about it except that it makes cancellation keyboard dependant. Would double-click on the editing tool be an alternative ? We may think why user selects another tool. Probably he thinks that the current tool was wrong and he wants to use another. If that is the situation then why to force user to do Cancel - Select another tool if plain Select another tool and automatic cancelling would do the same with less clicks? It is another story if we want to offer a possibility to leave features open for future edits. there is still the option of cancel/keep to allow users to use other tools as you mention below. 2) - It is essential to be able to pan and zoom and continue to draw a long linestring or big polygon after that. In OpenJUMP this is possible by using the keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it is the only way. User cannot use for example Pan or Zoom tools from the main menu because selecting another tool cancels drawing. Do not understand. Isn't it just the other way ? Selecting zoom/pan tool from the main tool menu does not interrupt drawing, you just have to select the editing tool again to go on. Or did I miss something ? Yes, you missed that I was using the release version of OJ with the traditional behaviour while writing that. It is not a wonder because I did not tell that. I am sorry. - Digitizing with Pan/Zoom keyboard shortcuts is nice and efficient but user needs to know how to use the shortcuts. It is probably not evident for new users. - Panning and zooming during drawing is not possible without keyboard. - QGis does not have at all as nice shortcuts for digitizing. It does have configurable shortcuts but they are not as nice to use (my opinion). - QGis does not cancel drawing if another tool is selected. Actually the default way to digitize seems to be to draw as long it is possible, select Pan tool, pan, select drawing tool, continue drawing, select Pan tool etc. I wouldn' t like to work that way but it is easy for the beginners and user do not need to touch the keyboard while drawing. - uDig cancels drawing when another tool is selected. - QGis and uDig are not totally comparable with OpenJUMP because they allow only one geometry type per layer and only one layer at a time can be editable. 3) - I do not see a reason for keeping not ready digitized feature open if it is not compulsory like it is with the QGis way to do use panning. Except one use case which I will tell later. For me it is OK to cancel drawing without asking if user selects another tool. You mean there is no reason for keeping not ready digitized feature except during zooming / panning operation. I agree this is not esssential. I do not see disadvantage though (maybe it is unusual and the user can feel the UI is buggy if it does not understand how it works). I would say that it is not essential in every day digitizing. It might be useful for some special cases, like when digitising with GPS, but has any user so far asked to implement such feature? Well, probably yes because they have not found the keyboard shortcuts and they would have liked to pan. As usual, things are not just black or white. Michaël 4) - However, if OpenJUMP should be used for digitizing with GPS a possibility to keep feature open for digitizing would be very good thing. It may take 5
Re: [JPP-Devel] About user interface for digitizing
Hi Jukka, Thanks for clarification, every answer makes sense Michaël I try to follow interesting Jukka's input, but I don't use editing tools as much... I list some quick notes about digitizing with OpenJUMP and some other programs. 1) - Before Ede implemented the new keyboard shortcuts the only way to cancel digitizing was to reselect the same digitizing tool or some other tool from the toolbox or Select features or Fence tool from the main menu. - With the new keyboard shortcuts we have now, selecting another tool does not cancel drawing but the only way to cancel digitizing is to press Esc when the same tool that was used to start drawing is active. - Behaviour is clearly different. I do not say if it better or worse. so far the others tend to autocancelling as before.. i have no opinion, so i will do so if nobody objects in time. I think using escape to cancel editing is good. Me too. But if it is the only way to cancel editing and you have touch screen computer or just a cup of coffee or a phone in the other hand you would like to be able to do that with just mouse. In addition, right now changing tools on-the-fly, like from draw polygon into draw line, leaves phantom lines on the screen and for new users it may be hard to understand why it happens. I don' understand if the change between previous and current versions when you reselect the digitizing tool to cancel editing (which is no more possible) was motivated by the new framework (which makes it difficult/impossible/hackish to cancel like that) or by your personnal feeling that it is better like that. I have no strong opinion about it except that it makes cancellation keyboard dependant. Would double-click on the editing tool be an alternative ? We may think why user selects another tool. Probably he thinks that the current tool was wrong and he wants to use another. If that is the situation then why to force user to do Cancel - Select another tool if plain Select another tool and automatic cancelling would do the same with less clicks? It is another story if we want to offer a possibility to leave features open for future edits. there is still the option of cancel/keep to allow users to use other tools as you mention below. 2) - It is essential to be able to pan and zoom and continue to draw a long linestring or big polygon after that. In OpenJUMP this is possible by using the keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it is the only way. User cannot use for example Pan or Zoom tools from the main menu because selecting another tool cancels drawing. Do not understand. Isn't it just the other way ? Selecting zoom/pan tool from the main tool menu does not interrupt drawing, you just have to select the editing tool again to go on. Or did I miss something ? Yes, you missed that I was using the release version of OJ with the traditional behaviour while writing that. It is not a wonder because I did not tell that. I am sorry. - Digitizing with Pan/Zoom keyboard shortcuts is nice and efficient but user needs to know how to use the shortcuts. It is probably not evident for new users. - Panning and zooming during drawing is not possible without keyboard. - QGis does not have at all as nice shortcuts for digitizing. It does have configurable shortcuts but they are not as nice to use (my opinion). - QGis does not cancel drawing if another tool is selected. Actually the default way to digitize seems to be to draw as long it is possible, select Pan tool, pan, select drawing tool, continue drawing, select Pan tool etc. I wouldn' t like to work that way but it is easy for the beginners and user do not need to touch the keyboard while drawing. - uDig cancels drawing when another tool is selected. - QGis and uDig are not totally comparable with OpenJUMP because they allow only one geometry type per layer and only one layer at a time can be editable. 3) - I do not see a reason for keeping not ready digitized feature open if it is not compulsory like it is with the QGis way to do use panning. Except one use case which I will tell later. For me it is OK to cancel drawing without asking if user selects another tool. You mean there is no reason for keeping not ready digitized feature except during zooming / panning operation. I agree this is not esssential. I do not see disadvantage though (maybe it is unusual and the user can feel the UI is buggy if it does not understand how it works). I would say that it is not essential in every day digitizing. It might be useful for some special cases, like when digitising with GPS, but has any user so far asked to implement such feature? Well, probably yes because they have not found the keyboard shortcuts and they would have liked to pan. As usual, things are not just black or white. Michaël 4) - However, if OpenJUMP should be used for digitizing with GPS a possibility to keep feature open for
