Re: [kde-community] open board dinner on 14th of May in Berlin
2016-04-30 15:42 GMT+03:00 Lydia Pintscher : > I'd like to make a reservation at a restaurant on the 8th to make sure we > get a good space for a larger group. Hi Lydia, Sorry for writing this late, but I'd like to join you. Will there be place for me and one more person? P.S. I'm definitely not a local person, even never have been to Germany yet ;) -- Alexander Potashev ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 17:18:39 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Montag, 9. Mai 2016 22:49:15 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: ... > > * I don't like the term "reach where they are", to me this > > always kind of implies that the person in question is currently somehow > > in a wrong place (in German: "die Leute da abholen, wo sie sind" :-/ ) > > Basically this is the "everyone" from the vision. > > So maybe > > "To be able to make the software available to everyone, KDE"... ? > > There are actually slightly different underlying positions concerning > priorities: > I assume that for both of us, a perfect world would be one where everybody > used exclusively free software/hardware/services/content. We both know that > this will probably never happen, so we have to aim for something more > realistic. And this is where our priorities diverge: > - For me, it's more important to get people away from as much non-Free stuff > as possible > - For you, it's more important to get our Free stuff to as many people as > possible Yes, kind of. But actually it's both very very similar. I mean, with every piece of free software we get somebody to use, we get this person away from one piece of non-free software. :-) > Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How can > we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us > voices their opinion? Maybe post to a few more mailing lists, e.g. kde-devel, plasma-devel, kde- core-devel, kde-frameworks-devel, is there a calligra-dvel ? > > * To me, "classic desktop" does not really fit into "reach users where > > they > > are" > > Ok, so where would you put it? I'm open to any suggestion here. > > > * One could argue that to provide control, freedom and privacy for users, > > KDE's products do not only need to have those properties, but the products > > actually need to cover a substantial range of the users needs. > > IOW, e.g. by offering a range of niche nerdy applications, let's say 3D > > printer software and a desktop ruler, we wouldn't do much to achieve our > > vision. > > So, should there be some mention of what we want to "produce" ? > > Something like desktop, office, education, creation, etc. ? > > Even "niche nerdy applications" do contribute to our vision, but of course > the more users, the bigger the impact. > > The question is, though: Does the "substantial range of the users needs" > really need to be covered by KDE software? For example, there is still no > advanced photo editing software from KDE, because the Krita team decided > that GIMP has that need covered just fine and Krita should focus on digital > painting instead. That's indeed a good question. We can continue this list e.g. with a state-of- the-art web browser and a production-ready word processor... > I, personally, think that the goal should be that /Free Software/ covers all > common user needs. Whether that software is made by KDE, GNOME, GNU, TDF, > Apache, any other organization or an independent project does not matter > that much to me. > > Of course there are some applications which greatly benefit from a very > tight integration with the desktop environment or other applications, and > it makes sense to offer these from one source, but that group might not > actually be all that big. > > That said, I have nothing against offering some examples of areas we think > we should cover, I just won't be the one to provide them. It would be nice if more people would contribute to the discussion... My impression (and also my opinion): our goal as KDE is not to be known for a few odd applications for special use-cases, but as the primary source for the applications "normal" users use every day: the "desktop" (plasma + kwin), the basic applications (text editor, terminal, file manager, image viewer, media player, etc.) and "advanced" applications (office, IDE, edu, games). IOW, creating just a few cool applications is not our mission, but covering (more or less) the full spectrum. I think this view is supported by the concerns many contributors raise that they want KDE to become more "relevant" again. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Thank you! The comments on the Dot story about the vision mentioned the need not to overlook accessibility for users with special needs. Obviously I agree, having started in KDE through kde-accessibility. I have added a sentence where the text mentions configuration and “the user’s need”. Best regards, Olaf Am 9. Mai 2016 17:54:13 MESZ, schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer : >Hi everyone, >thank you all for the feedback! >It seems we're now in a mode of fleshing out details, for which I find >emails >not optimal. Therefore, I've put up a my original of the draft on the >Wiki [1] >(where we can all edit it while keeping all revisions available), then >I >immediately created a first revision, trying to incorporate the ideas >which >were brought up in this thread. > >I've also added promoting development of Free software in general as a >goal, >under which I've put creating libraries, mentoring and collaboration >with >other orgs sharing our values, since all that has become quite >important for >KDE over the years. > >So, feel free to edit the Wiki page, or bring up points for further >discussion >here. > >Let's finish our mission before we lose interest ;) > >Cheers, >Thomas > >[1] https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission >___ >kde-community mailing list >kde-community@kde.org >https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Montag, 9. Mai 2016 22:49:15 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > Let's finish our mission before we lose interest ;) > > thanks for pushing :-) > > No objections from my side, just a few thoughts, in no specific order: Glad to hear :) > * I don't like the term "reach where they are", to me this always > kind of implies that the person in question is currently somehow in a wrong > place (in German: "die Leute da abholen, wo sie sind" :-/ ) > Basically this is the "everyone" from the vision. > So maybe > "To be able to make the software available to everyone, KDE"... ? There are actually slightly different underlying positions concerning priorities: I assume that for both of us, a perfect world would be one where everybody used exclusively free software/hardware/services/content. We both know that this will probably never happen, so we have to aim for something more realistic. And this is where our priorities diverge: - For me, it's more important to get people away from as much non-Free stuff as possible - For you, it's more important to get our Free stuff to as many people as possible Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How can we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us voices their opinion? > * To me, "classic desktop" does not really fit into "reach users where they > are" Ok, so where would you put it? I'm open to any suggestion here. > * One could argue that to provide control, freedom and privacy for users, > KDE's products do not only need to have those properties, but the products > actually need to cover a substantial range of the users needs. > IOW, e.g. by offering a range of niche nerdy applications, let's say 3D > printer software and a desktop ruler, we wouldn't do much to achieve our > vision. > So, should there be some mention of what we want to "produce" ? > Something like desktop, office, education, creation, etc. ? Even "niche nerdy applications" do contribute to our vision, but of course the more users, the bigger the impact. The question is, though: Does the "substantial range of the users needs" really need to be covered by KDE software? For example, there is still no advanced photo editing software from KDE, because the Krita team decided that GIMP has that need covered just fine and Krita should focus on digital painting instead. I, personally, think that the goal should be that /Free Software/ covers all common user needs. Whether that software is made by KDE, GNOME, GNU, TDF, Apache, any other organization or an independent project does not matter that much to me. Of course there are some applications which greatly benefit from a very tight integration with the desktop environment or other applications, and it makes sense to offer these from one source, but that group might not actually be all that big. That said, I have nothing against offering some examples of areas we think we should cover, I just won't be the one to provide them. > * you mention "embedded". I haven't seen any comments here e.g. from KF5- or > plasma-developers expressing strong interest. I'd like to keep it in unless someone says they explicitly do not want to target embedded. The mission should not just reflect what we're already doing, but what we _should_ be doing, after all. > * "on major [...] OS" -> "on all major [...] OS" ? Ok. > * "have consistent [...] interfaces", "available on major [...] OS, e.g. by > applying Qt" can easily be interpreted that Qt (and our set of libraries) is > used to achieve portability and consistent user interfaces, which could > easily be interpreted as e.g. a gtk-application is not part of our > mission... As far as portability (especially towards mobile platforms) is concerned, GTK is indeed not the toolkit of choice. In the mobile space, Qt (or more specifically QtQuick) seems to have pretty clearly won against GTK. I don't see how mentioning Qt as an example of a toolkit that helps us with that effort would exclude GTK applications. If someone would ask us what toolkit to use for a new KDE application, we'd still very likely recommend Qt, though. Maybe I'll just spell out "for example" because that makes it harder to miss than "e.g.". > * the two last points of "to create a convincing user experience" are quite > generic and inconcrete, i.e. they don't add much tangible They are, but I think they are important as reminders that we should not oppose things which are out of our comfort zone. The last point is mostly to make sure we keep doing what we're doing in that regard, the third is remind us not to repeat our mistakes from the past (like being wy too late to the mobile party) I think both points are important. Suggestions for how to make them more tangible are welcome! > Alex Thank you for the input, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/k
Re: [kde-community] Telegram Relay Service
On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Ben Cooksley wrote: > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Riccardo Iaconelli > > wrote: > >> > >> On sabato 7 maggio 2016 18:23:10 CEST Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > >> > I wonder why nobody > >> > examined this POV before starting to shift to Telegram. In this regard > >> > Mattermost appears to make much more sense as we could run it on our > >> > own servers, if we really need a phone client. > >> > >> Speaking as maintainer of a project which heavily uses Telegram: it > allows > >> backlogging and it is usable from behind any connection. For me it is > >> impossible to connect to IRC from the University, the University campus > or > >> the > >> research labs. > > > > > > Why? > > Universities usually firewall their internet connections to permit > only port 80 and 443 outbound. > Sometimes you have to use an authenticated proxy to do that as well. > > If you're lucky some universities will allow port 22 (SSH) outbound. > > This makes IRC unavailable obviously, although tools such as Telegram, > Slack, etc. which all use https and websockets to function work > perfectly fine. > I am not sure that I can realise the obvious here. I had used IRC in such an environment for years. If I recall it correctly, all I needed was an interim box. In worst case, I am sure that this would not be a problem for the KDE infrastructure to help a few KDE contributors in that case out. If it was, we need to think about a solution for the community in my opinion. > > Regards, > Ben > > > > >> > >> > >> Bye, > >> -Riccardo > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> kde-community mailing list > >> kde-community@kde.org > >> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > > > > > > > > ___ > > kde-community mailing list > > kde-community@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Telegram Relay Service
On martedì 10 maggio 2016 09:42:06 CEST Laszlo Papp wrote: > > Speaking as maintainer of a project which heavily uses Telegram: it allows > > backlogging and it is usable from behind any connection. For me it is > > impossible to connect to IRC from the University, the University campus or > > the > > research labs. > > Why? The two main reasons I have seen are: * it falls outside the typical whitelist that institutes have (which usually only allows http/https/vpn/ssh) * in research labs (e.g. CERN), it is actively blocked to protect the security of the users (as IRC does not mask hostnames by default, machines with good internet connection can become intresting targets) either way, it's getting increasingly difficult to use these services, which is why we started off with Telegram, at least in the beginning. Bye, -Riccardo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Telegram Relay Service
On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: > > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Riccardo Iaconelli > wrote: >> >> On sabato 7 maggio 2016 18:23:10 CEST Myriam Schweingruber wrote: >> > I wonder why nobody >> > examined this POV before starting to shift to Telegram. In this regard >> > Mattermost appears to make much more sense as we could run it on our >> > own servers, if we really need a phone client. >> >> Speaking as maintainer of a project which heavily uses Telegram: it allows >> backlogging and it is usable from behind any connection. For me it is >> impossible to connect to IRC from the University, the University campus or >> the >> research labs. > > > Why? Universities usually firewall their internet connections to permit only port 80 and 443 outbound. Sometimes you have to use an authenticated proxy to do that as well. If you're lucky some universities will allow port 22 (SSH) outbound. This makes IRC unavailable obviously, although tools such as Telegram, Slack, etc. which all use https and websockets to function work perfectly fine. Regards, Ben > >> >> >> Bye, >> -Riccardo >> >> >> ___ >> kde-community mailing list >> kde-community@kde.org >> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > > > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Telegram Relay Service
On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Riccardo Iaconelli wrote: > On sabato 7 maggio 2016 18:23:10 CEST Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > > I wonder why nobody > > examined this POV before starting to shift to Telegram. In this regard > > Mattermost appears to make much more sense as we could run it on our > > own servers, if we really need a phone client. > > Speaking as maintainer of a project which heavily uses Telegram: it allows > backlogging and it is usable from behind any connection. For me it is > impossible to connect to IRC from the University, the University campus or > the > research labs. > Why? > > Bye, > -Riccardo > > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Telegram Relay Service
On sabato 7 maggio 2016 18:23:10 CEST Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > I wonder why nobody > examined this POV before starting to shift to Telegram. In this regard > Mattermost appears to make much more sense as we could run it on our > own servers, if we really need a phone client. Speaking as maintainer of a project which heavily uses Telegram: it allows backlogging and it is usable from behind any connection. For me it is impossible to connect to IRC from the University, the University campus or the research labs. Bye, -Riccardo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
