Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
Hey folks :) We had a nice office hour to talk about the goals. If you couldn't make it to the office hour you can read up on what we talked about in the attached log. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher KDE e.V. Board of Directors http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org [16:59:28] Hi there! [17:00:07] hey everyone :) [17:00:25] We're doing an office hour for the KDE goals in the next hour here. [17:00:31] Who is here for the office hour? [17:00:39] I am! [17:00:41] hello :) [17:00:57] o/ [17:01:07] Nice! [17:01:22] So to give those of you new to it some intro: [17:01:29] I'm there, answering questions about the privacy goal [17:01:50] Last year we decided that it is time to clarify what the KDE community as a whole is working towards. [17:02:09] We had a process where goals for the next 3 to 4 years could be proposed. [17:02:25] Then there was a vote among the KDE community members and we selected the top 3. [17:02:57] This means we are spending time on improving KDE in 3 ways: productivity and usability of basic software, privacy and onboarding of new contributors. [17:03:11] And we're here today to answer questions related to that. [17:03:24] I suggest we start with a short intro of each of the goals. [17:03:29] sebas: want to start? [17:04:10] sure :) [17:04:54] so we had defined the vision for KDE ... which is: [17:04:58] "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life and enjoys freedom and privacy. " [17:05:30] so privacy is one of the cornerstones of this, the idea being that Free software is already the norm world-wide, and that these values are closely connected to these of privacy [17:06:01] and, being a community project, we have the credibility to really deliver software respecting privacy, because we're not driven by [17:06:26] collecting data, we're not bound by the U.S. government (for example), and we offer fully transparant software [17:07:03] also, privacy is increasingly important in the post-Snowden world, and getting more important every day, while most people don't understand it, so we have a mission right there [17:07:22] it's also a value overarching many of KDE's subprojects, though in some it plays a bigger role than in others [17:07:53] I could go on for another 53 minutes and we'd be done, so if you want more background, I've blogged about it at https://vizzzion.org/blog/2017/11/kdes-goal-privacy/ :) [17:08:04] Thanks, sebas :) [17:08:09] ngraham: You next? [17:08:10] The fully goal description is at https://phabricator.kde.org/T7050 btw [17:08:19] sure! [17:08:29] Hi, I'm Nate Graham, and I spearhead the Usability & Productivity initiative (https://phabricator.kde.org/T6831) [17:08:53] This iniatitive is all about focusing on our basic software like Plasma, Discover, Dolphin, Kate, Gwenview, Okular, and Konsole; and the frameworks that underpin them like KIO, Baloo, and Kirigami [17:09:06] The goal is to improve their usability and polish, and add productivity-related features that make them even more suitable for work and professional use [17:09:52] We want to make sure that our software is not only competitive but superior to alternatives, so that people will want to use our platform in the first place, and fall in love with it for its polish, usability, and productivity [17:10:28] I have to say, this initiative has produced great results already; thanks for that =) [17:10:34] I blog about our progress on a weekly basis (new posts every Sunday), which you can see at https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/category/usability-productivity/ [17:10:47] jankusanagi_: \o/ [17:10:57] Thanks jankusanagi_! [17:10:58] agree with jankusanagi_, great results so far! [17:11:33] also, the blogging-about-it part is excellent! [17:12:02] ngraham: anything else or should we move on to neofytosk? [17:12:20] I'm done! [17:12:28] I love how this goal keeps people excited and this is evident through Nate's posts. [17:12:48] Indeed! [17:12:49] so hello from me as well =) [17:13:00] o/ [17:13:09] I'm Neofytos Kolokotronis and I proposed the Streamlined onboarding of new contributors goal. [17:14:02] For the KDE community and its projects to stay healthy and continue to grow, it is very important that the flow of new contributors is continuous and why not increasing as we move forward. [17:14:21] In short, the streamlined onboarding goal is about making the most of our community and the individuals that show interest in getting involved. [17:14:56] My vision is to do this by working together to lower the entry barrier for new people to step up and also support those that are in their first steps as new contributors. [17:15:16] interested in the views of a sort of 'drive-by' contributor on this? [17:15:28] A more detailed blog post can be found here: http://neofytosk.com/post/kde-community-goal-streamlined-onboarding-of-new-contributors---introduction/ [17:15:49
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On 15.03.2018 19:18, Lydia Pintscher wrote: Hey folks :) We had a nice office hour to talk about the goals. If you couldn't make it to the office hour you can read up on what we talked about in the attached log. It is curious there was talk of Docker, but https://janitor.technology/ was not mentioned. After all, there is already a KDE container there (built 7 months ago, though). The source for it is here: https://github.com/rcatolino/kdesrcbuild-docker They say here: https://discourse.janitor.technology/t/sharing-efforts-and-benefits-with-all-open-source-projects/ KDE Efforts: None WANTED: Maintaining KDE development environment image WANTED: Hosting Janitor containers for KDE Benefits: Development environments for KDE (hosted by IRILL) It seems the ball was dropped regarding this. Why? Should be a perfect fit for the onboarding goal, no? Ilmari
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On Friday, 16 March 2018 09:20:26 CET, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote: KDE Efforts: None WANTED: Maintaining KDE development environment image WANTED: Hosting Janitor containers for KDE Benefits: Development environments for KDE (hosted by IRILL) It seems the ball was dropped regarding this. Why? Should be a perfect fit for the onboarding goal, no? I think there was also: Efforts: Missing: telling KDE that this thing exists Maybe that's a bit snarky, but I can't find any previous mention of janitor on any KDE mailing lists. Is it possible that they set this up and then forgot to inform anyone? Maybe just the Mozilla tools list? I'm happy *you* know about it, and now think "this should be updated, and quick". There doesn't seem to be any way to quickly log in -- seems it's still in the alpha-invite-only phase. [ade]
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
Whether it’s Docker or this new Janitor thingy, we’re going to want decent documentation on how to use it. I’m a newly-minted newcomer and find the whole “container” concept confusing and complicated. (Is that enough ‘C’s for one message?) -sharvey On Mar 16, 2018, 5:30 AM -0500, Adriaan de Groot , wrote: > On Friday, 16 March 2018 09:20:26 CET, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote: > > KDE > > > > Efforts: > > None > > WANTED: Maintaining KDE development environment image > > WANTED: Hosting Janitor containers for KDE > > Benefits: > > Development environments for KDE (hosted by IRILL) > > > > It seems the ball was dropped regarding this. Why? Should be a > > perfect fit for the onboarding goal, no? > > > I think there was also: > > Efforts: > Missing: telling KDE that this thing exists > > Maybe that's a bit snarky, but I can't find any previous mention of janitor > on any KDE mailing lists. Is it possible that they set this up and then > forgot to inform anyone? Maybe just the Mozilla tools list? I'm happy *you* > know about it, and now think "this should be updated, and quick". There > doesn't seem to be any way to quickly log in -- seems it's still in the > alpha-invite-only phase. > > [ade] >
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On 16.03.2018 12:29, Adriaan de Groot wrote: On Friday, 16 March 2018 09:20:26 CET, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote: KDE Efforts: None WANTED: Maintaining KDE development environment image WANTED: Hosting Janitor containers for KDE Benefits: Development environments for KDE (hosted by IRILL) It seems the ball was dropped regarding this. Why? Should be a perfect fit for the onboarding goal, no? I think there was also: Efforts: Missing: telling KDE that this thing exists Maybe that's a bit snarky, but I can't find any previous mention of janitor on any KDE mailing lists. Is it possible that they set this up and then forgot to inform anyone? Maybe just the Mozilla tools list? I'm happy *you* know about it, and now think "this should be updated, and quick". There doesn't seem to be any way to quickly log in -- seems it's still in the alpha-invite-only phase. [ade] Ooo... k. That is highly weird. I've been wondering, how LibreOffice could get with the program "like the kool kids at KDE" and now it turns out KDE doesn't know it is in. You're too hip for your own good, it seems! To Scott and anyone else: Janitor uses Docker so its not "either or". Here is the repo collecting all the environments: https://github.com/JanitorTechnology/dockerfiles Ilmari
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On Friday, 16 March 2018 13:10:02 CET, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote: Ooo... k. That is highly weird. I've been wondering, how LibreOffice could get with the program "like the kool kids at KDE" and now it turns out KDE doesn't know it is in. You're too hip for your own good, it seems! We're so hip, we have a hard time seeing over our own pelvis (I believe it was Zaphod Beeblebrox who said that). I've now contacted the Janitor folks, so we'll see what can be updated and/or revised, and possibly start using it -- since it *does* sound like a very interesting service. [ade]
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On Friday, 16 March 2018 16:07:20 CET, Adriaan de Groot wrote: I've now contacted the Janitor folks, so we'll see what can be updated and/or revised, and possibly start using it -- since it *does* sound like a very interesting service. Please chime in on the GH issue I've created to discuss this: https://github.com/JanitorTechnology/janitor/issues/300 or if you want to use KDE infrastructure, please create a task on Phab and add that to this thread. The current environment is based on https://github.com/rcatolino/kdesrcbuild-docker but we should have a few people -- part of the onboarding taskforce? -- look the janitor stuff over at least once. [ade]
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On 16.03.2018 17:35, Adriaan de Groot wrote: On Friday, 16 March 2018 16:07:20 CET, Adriaan de Groot wrote: I've now contacted the Janitor folks, so we'll see what can be updated and/or revised, and possibly start using it -- since it *does* sound like a very interesting service. Please chime in on the GH issue I've created to discuss this: https://github.com/JanitorTechnology/janitor/issues/300 or if you want to use KDE infrastructure, please create a task on Phab and add that to this thread. The current environment is based on https://github.com/rcatolino/kdesrcbuild-docker but we should have a few people -- part of the onboarding taskforce? -- look the janitor stuff over at least once. Thanks for chasing this, Adrian, you rock! Thanks also to Raphael Catolino for the original Docker work and for still keeping at it. This is valuable not only for KDE, but for LibreOffice as well while we evaluate this thing. Janitor is supposed to get Windows support mid-2018. This will be good for attracting more Windows hackers to KDE. Ilmari
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
On Sunday, 18 March 2018 11:43:00 CET, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote: Thanks also to Raphael Catolino for the original Docker work and for still keeping at it. This is valuable not only for KDE, but for LibreOffice as well while we evaluate this thing. So I was just playing with the Janitor service. The KDE container is rather broken (no desktop shell packages installed, so you don't get a desktop or anything, and if the screen locker comes up, then there's no way to enter a password -- keypresses are not registered), so I tried the Thunderbird container instead. What you get is noVNC in a browser tab, to a container instance just for you. You get a checkout of the sources of Thunderbird, plus whatever development tools you need to edit, build, and test Thunderbird. Well, I assume so -- TB itself has no README, INSTALL or HACKING file, and running configure tells me that the mail application is missing. But, in theory, if I knew how to work on TB, I could. So it's really cool, actually: "I want to help with " translates to "start browser and point at foo-on-janitor", and assuming foo is set up there, bam, start hacking already. It is not really clear how one would submit changes afterwards -- I guess it would be useful to have a "log in to GH" or "log in to KDE Phab" link on the desktop to make that kind of thing clear to drive-by contributors. Afterwards, you can just delete the container and it's gone. This could be *really* useful for those drive-by contributors, or people asking "how do I get started?" There is a risk, in the sense that pushing one container with one set of tools and one underlying distro *might* skew the kind of contributors we get. I suppose we should do FreeBSD + Clang + Plasma as a devel container, then new contributors will write non-Linuxism, non-GCCism code without noticing what's underneath, right? (I kid, I kid .. syscall numbers don't match up). Right now the service is invite-only, and some of the user-handling is a little weird. Once you're in the system, logging in (in the web browser, to be able to manage your containers) works like this: - enter email address in login page - get email, which has a one-time link which logs you in - click on link, and use the resulting browser tab for managing The (web) UI has a couple of quirks, mainly that clicking on things changes the cursor to "forbidden" while things happen, which can take quite a while. So sometimes it's click, wait, wait, hope that it completed. I understand there are multiple improvements to the web-UI in the works. My plan right now is to play with the KDE docker file until I get a feel for what's actually there, and to massage it (or rather, I'll suggest changes to R.Catolino, who maintains that particular dockerfile) towards some kind of "you want this workflow" setup. I somehow doubt that setting up a container for all possible kinds of KDE development is useful (you can already sort of see this in Janitor -- it's not like Rust, Firefox and Thunderbird are all jammed into one container, either). So in first instance, I'll be aiming for an up-to-date (-ish) Plasma desktop with dev tools installed ready to work on KMyMoney and Okular (an arbitrary selection). [ade]
Re: KDE goals IRC office hour
Hi all, As ade mentioned, this directly relates to the onboarding goal and it's indeed something we can improve. I started an issue on Phabricator to make sure this topic is properly tracked: https://phabricator.kde.org/T8484 Can we continue the discussion there? Cheers, Neofytos On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Adriaan de Groot wrote: > On Sunday, 18 March 2018 11:43:00 CET, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote: > >> Thanks also to Raphael Catolino for the original Docker work and for >> still keeping at it. This is valuable not only for KDE, but for LibreOffice >> as well while we evaluate this thing. >> > > So I was just playing with the Janitor service. The KDE container is > rather broken (no desktop shell packages installed, so you don't get a > desktop or anything, and if the screen locker comes up, then there's no way > to enter a password -- keypresses are not registered), so I tried the > Thunderbird container instead. > > What you get is noVNC in a browser tab, to a container instance just for > you. You get a checkout of the sources of Thunderbird, plus whatever > development tools you need to edit, build, and test Thunderbird. Well, I > assume so -- TB itself has no README, INSTALL or HACKING file, and running > configure tells me that the mail application is missing. But, in theory, if > I knew how to work on TB, I could. > > So it's really cool, actually: "I want to help with " translates to > "start browser and point at foo-on-janitor", and assuming foo is set up > there, bam, start hacking already. > > It is not really clear how one would submit changes afterwards -- I guess > it would be useful to have a "log in to GH" or "log in to KDE Phab" link on > the desktop to make that kind of thing clear to drive-by contributors. > Afterwards, you can just delete the container and it's gone. This could be > *really* useful for those drive-by contributors, or people asking "how do I > get started?" There is a risk, in the sense that pushing one container with > one set of tools and one underlying distro *might* skew the kind of > contributors we get. > > I suppose we should do FreeBSD + Clang + Plasma as a devel container, then > new contributors will write non-Linuxism, non-GCCism code without noticing > what's underneath, right? (I kid, I kid .. syscall numbers don't match up). > > Right now the service is invite-only, and some of the user-handling is a > little weird. Once you're in the system, logging in (in the web browser, to > be able to manage your containers) works like this: > - enter email address in login page > - get email, which has a one-time link which logs you in > - click on link, and use the resulting browser tab for managing > > The (web) UI has a couple of quirks, mainly that clicking on things > changes the cursor to "forbidden" while things happen, which can take quite > a while. So sometimes it's click, wait, wait, hope that it completed. I > understand there are multiple improvements to the web-UI in the works. > > My plan right now is to play with the KDE docker file until I get a feel > for what's actually there, and to massage it (or rather, I'll suggest > changes to R.Catolino, who maintains that particular dockerfile) towards > some kind of "you want this workflow" setup. I somehow doubt that setting > up a container for all possible kinds of KDE development is useful (you can > already sort of see this in Janitor -- it's not like Rust, Firefox and > Thunderbird are all jammed into one container, either). So in first > instance, I'll be aiming for an up-to-date (-ish) Plasma desktop with dev > tools installed ready to work on KMyMoney and Okular (an arbitrary > selection). > > [ade] >
