D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham created this revision.
ngraham added a reviewer: Frameworks.
ngraham requested review of this revision.

REVISION SUMMARY
  Horizontal space on the toolbar is precious and scarce, and that Reload 
button is taking up some of it.
  
  Once there's a Reload button in the context menu, it can probably be safely 
removed from the toolbar. It's not useful for local views since KDirWatcher 
updates the view automatically. It //can// be useful for network views, but 
those are a minority of use cases, and with D12215 
, it's present in the context menu.
  
  Depends on D12215 

TEST PLAN
  Reload button in the context menu, but not the toolbar:

BRANCH
  no-reload-button-in-toolbar (branched from master)

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

AFFECTED FILES
  src/filewidgets/kfilewidget.cpp

To: ngraham, #frameworks

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham edited the summary of this revision.
ngraham edited the test plan for this revision.
ngraham set the repository for this revision to R241 KIO.
ngraham added subscribers: Dolphin, rkflx.
Restricted Application added a project: Frameworks.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham edited the summary of this revision.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Kai Uwe Broulik]

broulik added a comment.


  Is it also accessible from the menu in the top right?

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D12218#247125 , @broulik wrote:
  
  > Is it also accessible from the menu in the top right?
  
  
  No, that's a settings menu, not a toolbar overflow menu. Ultimately the 
toolbar should be editable, to satisfy all possible desired combinations: 
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137837

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Mark Gaiser]

markg added a comment.


  I personally find the reload button much more useful to have there.
  
  ... (looking at the buttons) ...
  
  Why not removing back, forward and up? This is not an ironic or sarcastic 
suggestion! Just be frank, how often do you use back?
  How often do you use forward (close to never i assume).
  And up? Well, it's twice in there already. You have the breadcrumb bar which 
allows you to go up.
  
  Refresh on the other hand is something i use relatively often, more then any 
of the other buttons. But it depends on my hand position. If i'm already moving 
the mouse i'm inclined to hit the refresh button, if i'm already on the 
keyboard then i'm inclined to just press F5 .

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  In D12218#247355 , @markg wrote:
  
  > And up? Well, it's twice in there already. You have the breadcrumb bar 
which allows you to go up.
  
  
  Not if you are in Edit mode (see bug for discussion). Also note that e.g. 
openSUSE even patches Dolphin to provide Up by default (and I would suggest 
this as they way forward as well, i.e. adding it in Dolphin instead of removing 
it in the file dialog).
  
  > how often do you use back?
  
  It's not about us, but about regular users. For them it is reassuring to go 
back to the previous state when they misclicked on a directory. And having the 
corresponding Forward then makes it pretty clear that it is a web browser-like 
navigation, and not some kind of "show the previous dialog" thing known from 
mobile devices. Let's keep consistency with Dolphin here.
  
  > Refresh on the other hand is something i use relatively often, more then 
any of the other buttons.
  
  Curious to know: What do you need Refresh for? Maybe there's need for some 
changes so you won't have to hit that button manually so often?

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Mark Gaiser]

markg added a comment.


  >> Refresh on the other hand is something i use relatively often, more then 
any of the other buttons.
  > 
  > Curious to know: What do you need Refresh for? Maybe there's need for some 
changes so you won't have to hit that button manually so often?
  
  As i said, it's all relative. I barely use any of the buttons but the one i 
do use is refresh.
  I only need it when i'm impatient (for instance when wanting to click on a 
file that is still being copied) or when i'm browsing a slow network drive.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D12218#247400 , @markg wrote:
  
  > As i said, it's all relative. I barely use any of the buttons but the one i 
do use is refresh.
  >  I only need it when i'm impatient (for instance when wanting to click on a 
file that is still being copied)
  
  
  Not really a valid use case; KDirWatcher should update the view for you 
automatically, and there's no practical benefit to mashing the reload button. 
The button isn't there to facilitate OCD. :) To do that, just hit [F5]. :)
  
  > or when i'm browsing a slow network drive.
  
  The Reload functionality is still available via the [F5] as well as the 
context menu. Are those not enough for this use case? And how common is this, 
really? I'm not sure that "file manipulation from the open/save dialog on a 
slow network drive" is a common enough use case to justify taking up space in 
an extremely constrained UI to show a button for reloading the view, especially 
once that functionality is available via another GUI method too (it's always 
available via [F5].
  
  Ultimately the pressure here will be reduced by making the toolbar editable, 
so people who really want a visible Reload button can have one. But until then, 
we need to ask ourselves whether the //general user// benefits from having this 
button always visible, more than he or she might benefit from having something 
or more general usefulness visible in the toolbar (e.g. a dropdown menu button 
that exposes sorting options).

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham edited the summary of this revision.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Mark Gaiser]

markg added a comment.


  In D12218#247481 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > In D12218#247400 , @markg wrote:
  >
  > > As i said, it's all relative. I barely use any of the buttons but the one 
i do use is refresh.
  > >  I only need it when i'm impatient (for instance when wanting to click on 
a file that is still being copied)
  >
  >
  > Not really a valid use case; KDirWatcher should update the view for you 
automatically, and there's no practical benefit to mashing the reload button. 
The button isn't there to facilitate OCD. :) To do that, just hit [F5]. :)
  
  
  Not valid? I'd remove all those buttons on the left side except for refresh :)
  
  > 
  > 
  >> or when i'm browsing a slow network drive.
  > 
  > The Reload functionality is still available via the [F5] as well as the 
context menu. Are those not enough for this use case? And how common is this, 
really? I'm not sure that "file manipulation from the open/save dialog on a 
slow network drive" is a common enough use case to justify taking up space in 
an extremely constrained UI to show a button for reloading the view, especially 
once that functionality is available via another GUI method too (it's always 
available via [F5].
  > 
  > Ultimately the pressure here will be reduced by making the toolbar 
editable, so people who really want a visible Reload button can have one. But 
until then, we need to ask ourselves whether the //general user// benefits from 
having this button always visible, more than he or she might benefit from 
having something or more general usefulness visible in the toolbar (e.g. a 
dropdown menu button that exposes sorting options).
  
  I find refresh (much) more important then the preview toggle (that should 
imho be under the settings thingy, not as it's own button).
  Removing refresh is a mistake in my opinion.
  Note that F5  is for some users FN + F5 
 in case the user prefers to use the "FN" 
functions (in my case that is true on one keyboard where the volume keys are 
hidden under F8, F9 and F10). That's not an argument to either keep or remove 
it, but just to show that refresh doesn't always have to be a one-key thing. 
But i consider that to be a "it's your own fault" case as the user then 
knowingly chose this.
  
  But perhaps we need more opinions.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  Can we find a compromise? For example, the Places panel already seems to know 
when something is on a remote location. Could we show Refresh only for remote 
folders? The toolbar reorganizing itself would also make users aware of the 
need to manually refresh in some cases.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham edited the summary of this revision.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  +1

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: abetts, markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.
Restricted Application added a subscriber: kde-frameworks-devel.


  Should we land this onto the `file-dialog-improvements` branch, or are folks 
still unsure?

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks
Cc: kde-frameworks-devel, abetts, markg, broulik, rkflx, #dolphin, michaelh, 
ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson requested changes to this revision.
davidedmundson added a comment.
This revision now requires changes to proceed.


  Usability rules normally are that anything a user needs should be accessible 
without a context menu.
  
  > It can be useful for network views, but those are a minority of use cases
  
  Every large scale KDE deployment (from my POV by far our most important 
userbase) has a network share.
  
  It might not be needed often, but when it's needed it's needed.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks, davidedmundson
Cc: davidedmundson, kde-frameworks-devel, abetts, markg, broulik, rkflx, 
#dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  In D12218#271290 , @davidedmundson 
wrote:
  
  > > It can be useful for network views, but those are a minority of use cases
  >
  > Every large scale KDE deployment (from my POV by far our most important 
userbase) has a network share.
  >
  > It might not be needed often, but when it's needed it's needed.
  
  
  Would you be okay with some of the compromises mentioned above, or is this 
again an all-or-nothing thing?
  
  - Show toolbar button only for network folders.
  - Move Reload to `KUrlNavigator`.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks, davidedmundson
Cc: davidedmundson, kde-frameworks-devel, abetts, markg, broulik, rkflx, 
#dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Mark Gaiser]

markg added a comment.


  In D12218#271375 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > In D12218#271290 , 
@davidedmundson wrote:
  >
  > > > It can be useful for network views, but those are a minority of use 
cases
  > >
  > > Every large scale KDE deployment (from my POV by far our most important 
userbase) has a network share.
  > >
  > > It might not be needed often, but when it's needed it's needed.
  >
  >
  > Would you be okay with some of the compromises mentioned above, or is this 
again an all-or-nothing thing?
  >
  > - Show toolbar button only for network folders.
  > - Move Reload to `KUrlNavigator`.
  
  
  The problem would then be the detection of a network share.
  I can mount a cifs share locally, you'd not know the difference.
  Same with any filesystem. They can all become local. And - frankly - with SMB 
it has some performance benefits to mount it locally with cifs.
  
  You could go for the "isSlow" check (smb is included in there iirc), but it 
would be a quite weak check.
  I'd just say no to this. Reload needs to stay imho.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks, davidedmundson
Cc: davidedmundson, kde-frameworks-devel, abetts, markg, broulik, rkflx, 
#dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns

D12218: Remove Reload button from the file dialogs' toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham abandoned this revision.
ngraham added a comment.


  I'd be in favor of putting it into `KUrlNavigator`. But in retrospect, I see 
people's point regarding its usefulness somewhere visible in the dialog.

REPOSITORY
  R241 KIO

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D12218

To: ngraham, #frameworks, davidedmundson
Cc: davidedmundson, kde-frameworks-devel, abetts, markg, broulik, rkflx, 
#dolphin, michaelh, ngraham, bruns