D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D17906#389914 , @mart wrote:
  
  > I wonder if it shouldn't be something in the future eventually part of the 
theme, I see things like menu font and toolbar font in fonts kcm as something 
completely obsolete, while those settings should be more about conventional 
typography (like normal font, heading font etc)
  
  
  +1 FWIW

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
Closed by commit R169:e5d392cb79f9: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for 
headings (2/3) (authored by filipf, committed by ngraham).

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  Yep, will do. We have other diffs for those.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  so, if this is pushed, the same thing should happen at the same time to the 
corresponding plasma components

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart accepted this revision.
mart added a comment.


  bah, seems very tricky to make it work properly across distributions.
  
  to me, it speaks mostly as a failure for us to control the look of our 
product, due to broken fonts in distros and qt font rendering still buggy, 
issue that unfortunately the vertical platforms like Windows don't have.
  the intention was to have heading with the same stroke width as the rest of 
the text, or slightly more still (which works on noto at least for level 1, 
apparently not on other styles)
  
  so i'm ok to remove the light font here, but clearly as a failure to make it 
work properly due to the state of the lower stack
  
  to me, it *is* still a clear visual regression, but is ok to go as "the least 
broken" option for now to not touch weigth.
  with a clear intent to monitor the situation.
  
  I wonder if it shouldn't be something in the future eventually part of the 
theme, I see things like menu font and toolbar font in fonts kcm as something 
completely obsolete, while those settings should be more about conventional 
typography (like normal font, heading font etc)

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


  In D17906#389751 , @fabianr wrote:
  
  > You are not using the default font, are you?
  
  
  
  
  In D17906#389713 , @mart wrote:
  
  > uuh, that's the wrong color.. that's seriously weird?
  >  that's on same version how i get notifications on a dark color scheme
  >  F6537172: Screenshot_20190109_104727.png 

  
  
  This the "//Qt will use whichever light font style is present//" problem.
  
  F6537311: image.png 
  
  It says "Light", but is actually "Hairline". On both of my machines the font 
got installed this way.
  
  As I said, light titlebars don't work great with Noto now either, but can 
even fall apart more with other fonts.
  
  - Roboto has a really thin "Light" variant:
  
  F6537317: image.png 
  
  - DejaVu Sans only has an "ExtraLight" variant:
  
  F6537320: image.png 

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Fabian Riethmayer]

fabianr added a comment.


  In D17906#388294 , @filipf wrote:
  
  > Updating an another computer to Frameworks 5.53 and Qt 5.12 I get the same 
problem.
  >
  > F6531867: image.png 
  >
  > F6531893: image.png 
  >
  > For me this represented a massive regression, and there's bound to be more 
people in a similar situation. We can't have this happening.
  
  
  You are not using the default font, are you?

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Fabian Riethmayer]

fabianr added a comment.


  The HIG states: "When the visual design calls for an area of exceptional 
focus, a larger typeface size may be used. In this case use a Light typeface 
weight to keep the stroke width similar to other styles throughout the 
interface"
  
  I think, if you want to have something like F6531451: 
Screenshot_20190107_145258.png  you 
should use your own special sized label. And if you want to add so much focus 
on a text, it can be unique in its font size.
  
  To me it seams the predefined Header[1-4] are mainly to be used for regular 
content and chrome?

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  In D17906#388803 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > F6531451: Screenshot_20190107_145258.png 

  >  In this one, the fact that it's a header is connoted by its much larger 
font size and wider character width and spacing. It feels "bigger" in every way 
than the text beneath it. It looks good.
  >
  > F6531453: Screenshot_20190107_145312.png 

  >
  > This photo is quite different. Here the header text is no larger or barely 
larger than the text beneath it, and its line weight is lighter. Also, it's 
very visually disconnected from the thing it's a header for, since it's stuck 
up in the top-right corner of a visually superfluous stock photo. Nothing about 
the header text tells my eye "I'm a header!"
  
  
  it's exactly 180% the notmal font. It was bigger, I was told to shrink it

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  In D17906#388294 , @filipf wrote:
  
  > Updating an another computer to Frameworks 5.53 and Qt 5.12 I get the same 
problem.
  >
  > F6531867: image.png 
  >
  > F6531893: image.png 
  >
  > For me this represented a massive regression, and there's bound to be more 
people in a similar situation. We can't have this happening.
  
  
  uuh, that's the wrong color.. that's seriously weird?
  that's on same version how i get notifications on a dark color scheme
  
  F6537172: Screenshot_20190109_104727.png 


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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  F6531451: Screenshot_20190107_145258.png 

  In this one, the fact that it's a header is connoted by its much larger font 
size and wider character width and spacing. It feels "bigger" in every way than 
the text beneath it. It looks good.
  
  F6531453: Screenshot_20190107_145312.png 

  
  This photo is quite different. Here the header text is no larger or barely 
larger than the text beneath it, and its line weight is lighter. Also, it's 
very visually disconnected from the thing it's a header for, since it's stuck 
up in the top-right corner of a visually superfluous stock photo. Nothing about 
the header text tells my eye "I'm a header!"

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


  Updating an another computer to Frameworks 5.53 and Qt 5.12 I get the same 
problem.
  
  F6531867: image.png 
  
  For me this represented a massive regression, and there's bound to be more 
people in a similar situation. We can't have this happening.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


  In D17906#388104 , @rooty wrote:
  
  > In D17906#388052 , @mart wrote:
  >
  > > can we still keep as light the first level of heading, which is huge (and 
use that sparsingly) and go to levels from 2 onwards where needed smaller and 
bigger?
  >
  >
  > nope, very much against this idea... it //might// work if we used segoe ui, 
but that's about the only instance in which it would
  
  
  Not true, it might work with Noto Sans and with adjustments, but the problem 
is we dont lock people into using the same font. They have an easier job in 
Windows and co.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Root]

rooty added a comment.


  In D17906#388052 , @mart wrote:
  
  > can we still keep as light the first level of heading, which is huge (and 
use that sparsingly) and go to levels from 2 onwards where needed smaller and 
bigger?
  
  
  nope, very much against this idea... it //might// work if we used segoe ui, 
but that's about the only instance in which it would

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


  I was actually just going to reply that light titles could work theoretically 
well with level 1 headings before I saw your last comment. For this to work 
right, for me it would mean:
  
  - certain adjustments for visual hierarchy; big headings must still retain 
visual priority-> e.g. the application's description in Discover would need to 
have some opacity
  - Qt using **only** the "light" font style and not falling back to styles 
such as "hairline" or "ultrathin"
  
  Although you then still have the problem of potentially too thin "light" 
styles with some fonts + not being able to guarantee your effect if the font 
doesn't have the light style. So the latter also means if you fix point no. 1 I 
mentioned, you get super //in your face// titles because the font is now 
regular.
  
  Have you managed to test the current solution with some other fonts maybe? 
With more testing we could see for how many it works in the first place and how 
many are troublesome (e.g. Deja VuSans).

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  can we still keep as light the first level of heading, which is huge (and use 
that sparsingly) and go to levels from 2 onwards where needed smaller and 
bigger?

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  in the end i *may* accept non light titles, even tough i still very much 
don't like the idea, but what i don't want to never, ever see in any 
circumstance is bold titles, anything of that will just be reverted.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  In D17906#385968 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > - **Implementation inconsistency:** Many  fonts don't have a dedicated 
light style, many distros don't ship them if they do, and Qt < 5.12 doesn't use 
them even if
  
  
  nope, with the workaround used it works even with old versions

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

mart added a comment.


  In D17906#385857 , @filipf wrote:
  
  > With the exception of the case of the Windows Store (which does nonetheless 
manage to achieve some visual hierarchy with different font sizes and colors), 
others mostly actually have an opposite approach and go the bold/semi-bold 
route for the more prominent titles, which makes sense - you want to highlight 
the information contained in them. But the point of this patch is to just make 
sure the most important information is not made less important or even 
illegible, which is guaranteed if the labels are "regular" style.
  
  
  of all of those the one i prefer by a long shot is indeed windows store which 
actually looks exactly like our graphics,
  F6531451: Screenshot_20190107_145258.png 
 is not conceptually different from 
F6531453: Screenshot_20190107_145312.png  
in any way really.
  
  the reason that in many places the visual hierarchy has been broken, like in 
plasma tooltips or calendar, is because the title text has been changed to be 
stupidly small, but the fact that it has been ruined, is not a good excuse to 
ruin it even more.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a subscriber: rooty.
ngraham added a comment.


  Aesthetics are admittedly subjective, though I must note that pretty much all 
of VDG is in favor of moving away from light header text for aesthetic reasons. 
However there are other important technical arguments as well, which I will 
restate here:
  
  - **Implementation inconsistency:** Many  fonts don't have a dedicated light 
style, many distros don't ship them if they do, and Qt < 5.12 doesn't use them 
even if they're there. As a result, the visual effect is hampered by an 
inability to consistently display it.
  - **Usability problems:** with many fonts, the light styles are very 
difficult to see. Fonts that do not have a dedicated light style often receive 
the ultra light variant instead, which is almost always borderline illegible. A 
great deal of text throughout Plasma and KDE apps use reduced opacity for 
de-emphasis or inactive text and in this case, using a light style results in 
the text often being //actually// illegible. @rooty has posted examples in this 
and other Phab tickets as well as in the linked bug.
  - **Conceptually incorrect:** It's incorrect to have headers use a reduced 
visual weight compared to the content below them. Headers are //supposed// to 
be bigger and bolder than the text in their content area. They're //supposed// 
to draw attention to themselves. That's their reason for existence. A header 
that tries to de-emphasize itself is a contradiction in terms.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

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[Filip Fila]

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


  In D17906#385682 , @mart wrote:
  
  > I'm very much against this, I think it looks very bad :/
  
  
  I think the idea to have a light style for big titles is nice and could 
theoretically work, but in our case unfortunately fails in practice :/
  
  The thing is, even if we didn't have a problem with fonts (btw defaults are 
not a guaranteed experience either, e.g. Fedora ships Plasma with "Sans") 
potentially failing, visual hierarchy is still something which doesn't work the 
best with the old code.
  
  Attaching some screenshots from our main competitors for comparison's sake:
  
  **Notifications (D17905 ):**
  
  F6522734: photo_2018-12-31_12-59-40.jpg 
  
  **App stores:**
  
  - Mac App Store
  
  F6522764: image.png 
  
  F6522766: image.png 
  
  - Windows Store
  
  F6522769: image.png 
  
  F6522740: image.png 
  
  F6522969: image.png 
  
  - GNOME Software:
  
  F6522756: image.png 
  
  F6522758: image.png 
  
  F6522760: image.png 
  
  With the exception of the case of the Windows Store (which does nonetheless 
manage to achieve some visual hierarchy with different font sizes and colors), 
others mostly actually have an opposite approach and go the bold/semi-bold 
route for the more prominent titles, which makes sense - you want to highlight 
the information contained in them. But the point of this patch is to just make 
sure the most important information is not made less important or even 
illegible, which is guaranteed if the labels are "regular" style.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  Goodness, I think this is all about taste. I am more on the side that it 
looks good. It visually prioritizes hierarchy with labels. @mart Does it just 
look bad for you or do you think this will cause issues somewhere else?

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Marco Martin]

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  I'm very much against this, I think it looks very bad :/

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham removed a dependent revision: D17916: [Login and lock screens] Do not 
use light font styles for the sddm clock.

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D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf edited the test plan for this revision.

REPOSITORY
  R169 Kirigami

BRANCH
  no-light-headings (branched from master)

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D17906

To: filipf, ngraham, #plasma, #vdg, #frameworks
Cc: plasma-devel, dkardarakos, apol, davidedmundson, mart, hein

D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Root]

rooty added a dependent revision: D17916: [Login and lock screens] Do not use 
light font styles for the sddm clock.

REPOSITORY
  R169 Kirigami

BRANCH
  no-light-headings (branched from master)

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D17906

To: filipf, ngraham, #plasma, #vdg, #frameworks
Cc: plasma-devel, dkardarakos, apol, davidedmundson, mart, hein

D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham accepted this revision.
ngraham added a comment.
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.


  Strongly approve for all the reasons given in 
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=402730.
  
  Let's wait a bit though to make sure the #plasma 
 developers have a chance to weigh in.

REPOSITORY
  R169 Kirigami

BRANCH
  no-light-headings (branched from master)

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D17906

To: filipf, ngraham, #plasma, #vdg, #frameworks
Cc: plasma-devel, dkardarakos, apol, davidedmundson, mart, hein

D17906: [kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)

[Filip Fila]

filipf retitled this revision from "[kirigami] Don't use light font styles for 
headings (2/3)" to "[kirigami] Do not use light font styles for headings (2/3)".
filipf edited the summary of this revision.

REPOSITORY
  R169 Kirigami

REVISION DETAIL
  https://phabricator.kde.org/D17906

To: filipf, ngraham, #plasma, #vdg, #frameworks
Cc: plasma-devel, dkardarakos, apol, davidedmundson, mart, hein