Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
Hi Loïc, On 13/05/2019 13:45, l...@loicvanderstichelen.com wrote: > > François, do you share a link to your python script ? > Sure! I need to add it to a proper git public repository, along with the right license and I will share it with everyone. Cheers, François
Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
Hi everybody, There is a plenty of ways to use an NLE. It depends what your purpose. If you are a Youtuber, a documentary editor, a fiction editor or a news editor it's not exactlly the same mathod of editing. I the company I'm working (so in the proprietary world), they use Edius for news and they use Premiere for promo clips, social networks. My friends who are making documentary films or fiction use Avid (they come from INSAS cinema school in Brussels). Some of them are testing Da Vinci Resolve but they are thinking that is not ready yet. Why Edius for news ? It's very fast. Effects are terrible but it's really really fast. Perfect when you need to deliver something quickly. Why Premiere for clips ? Because Adobe has a lot of experience in typography and in graphics. You can deliver quickly something graphically convincing in the Adobe environment. Why Avid for filmmakers ? It has been thought by filmmakers. The question is what kind of editing style Kdenlive is mainly focusing ? As filmmaker (and teacher) Olive is more performant in effects but it is not as good as Kdenlive to organize a project (no comments in the project bin, no decklink support). Olive has the possibility to imbricate multiple timelines. I hope refactory will bring that function very soon to Kdenlive because it's absolutly essential when you edit documentary or fiction film. Effects are not important to me as long as it is possible to export on a compositer like Blender (or Natron if it still exists ?). Same for audio : it's mush more confortable to mix on a specific application (Ardour ?) François, do you share a link to your python script ? Cheers, Loïc Le 2019-05-12 19:44, François Téchené a écrit : Hi, I take this opportunity to give you my personal feedback about Kdenlive vs Olive as I have been using Kdenlive professionally for the last 3 years and I have also tried Olive recently. I have also been pretty much impressed by Olive, especially the GPU features that make a smooth experience with almost every filter and every transition. I believe that Olive is pretty promising, and I am watching its evolution closely, but it is still not matching my requirements in term of stability and features, especially in term of color grading. Kdenive, however, has been improving so much in the past 3 years and is now pretty close to match all my requirements. It is not using GPU rendering but its proxy and preview features are so convenient that it makes any processing intensive editing never be an issue. It has almost no limit in that regard, not even the limit of my GPU capacities. I would also add that scrubbing is always very smooth for me on Kdenlive, while it is not yet on Olive (this is a must have for me). Also, the color grading in Kdenlive is a real pleasure. I do an intense use of blending modes as well as a few filters like saturation and levels. I also use the Waveforme and Vectorscope graphs that work perfectly on Kdenlive. One thing that was really missing in Kdenlive is the ability to port my timeline to Ardour, but I have done a python script to achieve that, as part of my latest project, and I am going to share that as free software. Here is my latest work (I am making a behind the scene video to show my workflow) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0a03NRpX3Y I have mainly used Kdenlive for that video. It seems pretty simple because there is no visual effects nor crazy transitions but believe me the work I have done on the color is pretty advanced and process intensive. So my conclusion is that while Olive is very promising, Kdenlive remains a lot more suited to my professional workflow. Cheers, François On 11/05/2019 17:27, Tobiasz Karoń wrote: Hey! I've read Harald's e-mail and I thought maybe I'll share my Kdenlvie experience with you as well. I've been a heavy Kdenlive user for about 18 months, when I switched from Blender VSE, seeing it's not being worked on and I cannot expect the bugs that cripple my workflow to be ever fixed. About two months ago I've upgraded from 16 to 32 GB of RAM to help myself with editing videos in Kdenlive. A month later I immediately gave up using Kdeinlive, after I've discovered Olive. Olive is a very young project (about 20 months in development at this point). And it made me realize how painful it is to do my work with Kdenlive (or Blender VSE to be fair). Olive uses OpenGL for all image processing. It uses GLSL shaders for effects and compositing. I was even able to create a Despill effect myself to get a better Green Screen compositing. That being said I have a feeling that my trouble with Kdenlive will not lead to any progress, and I prefer to have issues with Olive that has a promising start and a community I can get in touch with easily. Also - it gives me an order of magnitude better experience than anything else right away, so why shouldn't iI use it? A minro problem was for the past year (or something?) I
Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
Hi, I take this opportunity to give you my personal feedback about Kdenlive vs Olive as I have been using Kdenlive professionally for the last 3 years and I have also tried Olive recently. I have also been pretty much impressed by Olive, especially the GPU features that make a smooth experience with almost every filter and every transition. I believe that Olive is pretty promising, and I am watching its evolution closely, but it is still not matching my requirements in term of stability and features, especially in term of color grading. Kdenive, however, has been improving so much in the past 3 years and is now pretty close to match all my requirements. It is not using GPU rendering but its proxy and preview features are so convenient that it makes any processing intensive editing never be an issue. It has almost no limit in that regard, not even the limit of my GPU capacities. I would also add that scrubbing is always very smooth for me on Kdenlive, while it is not yet on Olive (this is a must have for me). Also, the color grading in Kdenlive is a real pleasure. I do an intense use of blending modes as well as a few filters like saturation and levels. I also use the Waveforme and Vectorscope graphs that work perfectly on Kdenlive. One thing that was really missing in Kdenlive is the ability to port my timeline to Ardour, but I have done a python script to achieve that, as part of my latest project, and I am going to share that as free software. Here is my latest work (I am making a behind the scene video to show my workflow) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0a03NRpX3Y I have mainly used Kdenlive for that video. It seems pretty simple because there is no visual effects nor crazy transitions but believe me the work I have done on the color is pretty advanced and process intensive. So my conclusion is that while Olive is very promising, Kdenlive remains a lot more suited to my professional workflow. Cheers, François On 11/05/2019 17:27, Tobiasz Karoń wrote: > Hey! > > I've read Harald's e-mail and I thought maybe I'll share my Kdenlvie > experience with you as well. > > I've been a heavy Kdenlive user for about 18 months, when I switched > from Blender VSE, seeing it's not being worked on and I cannot expect > the bugs that cripple my workflow to be ever fixed. > About two months ago I've upgraded from 16 to 32 GB of RAM to help > myself with editing videos in Kdenlive. > A month later I immediately gave up using Kdeinlive, after I've > discovered Olive. > > Olive is a very young project (about 20 months in development at this > point). And it made me realize how painful it is to do my work with > Kdenlive (or Blender VSE to be fair). > Olive uses OpenGL for all image processing. It uses GLSL shaders for > effects and compositing. I was even able to create a Despill effect > myself to get a better Green Screen compositing. > > That being said I have a feeling that my trouble with Kdenlive will not > lead to any progress, and I prefer to have issues with Olive that has a > promising start and a community I can get in touch with easily. > Also - it gives me an order of magnitude better experience than anything > else right away, so why shouldn't iI use it? > > A minro problem was for the past year (or something?) I couldn't log > into my KDE account, because they enforce using your real name as login, > and I have diacritics in my name, I also can't use a password that I'd > want so I had once to contact an admit to even log in, and I just don't > have the tim deal with that.. That made me feel like the KDE community > is making it harder for me to communicate. > Why can't I use a login and password of my choosing? I find that a > strange decision and I'm just out of the KDE forums until that's changed. > > I've stopped reporting bugs, also knowing that the refactoring is a > priority. > I think Kdenlive has some great functions, but is also a huge mess. > > There are three groups of effects based on keyframing (no keyframing, a > table keyframing, and a timeline keyframing). The effects are affecting > the image in ways they shouldn't - transform and wipe will change the > color balance, whic is visible on the RGB parade - I show that in my > rant video). The performance is abysmal if you want to do any > compositing (which I do a lot). > If you want to just "cut the tape" and don't need any effects or > compositing - Kdenlvie may be acceptable. But not if you want to do > anything more complex. > > There's a UV Mapping compositor, that's useless, because the whole > pipeline is only 8-bit. Which gives you 256x256 pixels addressable. > > GPU support is non-functional and crashes Kdenlive every time for me. > Multithrraded rendering or even playback is broken and gives me white > frames every time. > > My recent two serious projects got random audio sync issues and audio > clicks (randomly different with each render). That was the last straw > for me, and I snapped. > > Here are
Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
I never was able to run cinelerra... it crashed tooo badly... I'm a professional linux and service provider since 2004, and I know no to migrate to my workflow to the newer versions until fully tested That is how Open Source works, and every time there is a big change, like newest version from KDEnlive, a lot of work is needed to get to the stability of the previous I remeber when linux changed to glibc, what a nightmare, migration from lilo to grub? awful... the introduction of LVM? just dont' start when kdelibs changed their licence model to GPL O my good what a soup opera is Linux... This instability is needed, but will always achieve better results Don't give up on kdenlive, just return to your working version, that is the idea of appimages, allow us go back and forth version with out compromising our source of income... That is how professionals work... On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 3:00 AM Mettavihari D wrote: > Greetings from Sri Lanka > > We are clear Open Source Users, started with Cinelerra some years ago, > after that switched to Kdenlive with blender to support in the graphics. > I still like the basic cinerella. > > Sure we will also try Olive, but at present we have close to 50 PCs > running Ubuntu and Kdenlive. > > So thanks to all of you for staying alive. > We do not talk much on the list, but at least you know that you have > users, who are happy that you exist. > > Mettavihari > > On Sat, 11 May 2019, 19:03 Jacob Kauffmann, > wrote: > >> >> On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Tobiasz Karoń wrote: >> >> If you want to just "cut the tape" and don't need any effects or >> compositing - Kdenlvie may be acceptable. But not if you want to do >> anything more complex. >> >> >> I don't think this is true, and I strongly dislike the implication that >> people who use Kdenlive aren't "serious" editors. I've been using Kdenlive >> since at least 2012, and over the years, I've done all kinds of >> compositing, rotoscoping, color correction, chroma-keying, and other things >> with it beyond simply "cutting the tape." >> >> I do agree that the limitations you talked about are very real issues-- I >> have felt like I'm "pushing the limits" of Kdenlive with some of my >> projects (although I'm always proud to do so.) I didn't even realize how >> much of an issue the lack of GPU utilization was until I tried Resolve for >> a month. (I still ended up coming back to Kdenlive because it's libre >> software and because Resolve doesn't work with the open-source AMDGPU >> drivers and ROCm OpenCL, though.) >> >> As far as "starting over" goes, my impression is that that's the point of >> refactoring sections of the program: to get rid of the old built-up crud >> that's holding things back. I would be interested to know how closely the >> Kdenlive devs work/are willing to work with MLT to improve it alongside the >> frontend. >> >> Just my two cents, since it seems like it's sharing day. >> >> - Jacob Kauffmann >> >
Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
Greetings from Sri Lanka We are clear Open Source Users, started with Cinelerra some years ago, after that switched to Kdenlive with blender to support in the graphics. I still like the basic cinerella. Sure we will also try Olive, but at present we have close to 50 PCs running Ubuntu and Kdenlive. So thanks to all of you for staying alive. We do not talk much on the list, but at least you know that you have users, who are happy that you exist. Mettavihari On Sat, 11 May 2019, 19:03 Jacob Kauffmann, wrote: > > On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Tobiasz Karoń wrote: > > If you want to just "cut the tape" and don't need any effects or > compositing - Kdenlvie may be acceptable. But not if you want to do > anything more complex. > > > I don't think this is true, and I strongly dislike the implication that > people who use Kdenlive aren't "serious" editors. I've been using Kdenlive > since at least 2012, and over the years, I've done all kinds of > compositing, rotoscoping, color correction, chroma-keying, and other things > with it beyond simply "cutting the tape." > > I do agree that the limitations you talked about are very real issues-- I > have felt like I'm "pushing the limits" of Kdenlive with some of my > projects (although I'm always proud to do so.) I didn't even realize how > much of an issue the lack of GPU utilization was until I tried Resolve for > a month. (I still ended up coming back to Kdenlive because it's libre > software and because Resolve doesn't work with the open-source AMDGPU > drivers and ROCm OpenCL, though.) > > As far as "starting over" goes, my impression is that that's the point of > refactoring sections of the program: to get rid of the old built-up crud > that's holding things back. I would be interested to know how closely the > Kdenlive devs work/are willing to work with MLT to improve it alongside the > frontend. > > Just my two cents, since it seems like it's sharing day. > > - Jacob Kauffmann >
Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
sob., 11 maj 2019 o 20:03 Jacob Kauffmann napisał(a): > > On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Tobiasz Karoń wrote: > > If you want to just "cut the tape" and don't need any effects or > compositing - Kdenlvie may be acceptable. But not if you want to do > anything more complex. > > > I don't think this is true, and I strongly dislike the implication that > people who use Kdenlive aren't "serious" editors. I've been using Kdenlive > since at least 2012, and over the years, I've done all kinds of > compositing, rotoscoping, color correction, chroma-keying, and other things > with it beyond simply "cutting the tape." > Oh no - that's not what I meant. I am pretty serious about making videos, and I know many people who also use Kdenlive for serious work What I wanted to say is that doing complex work in Kdenlive is an order of magnitude harder than doing very simple ones. The software becomes very flaky, and the user needs to take extra caution and wokraround problems as their projects complexity grows. That's my experience at least. For example - I had so much problems with the Rotoscoping effect that I just decided to stop trying, becasue it gave me more trouble than gains. Maybe for some users (on some systems?) they can work reliably, unfortunately not for me :) > I do agree that the limitations you talked about are very real issues-- I > have felt like I'm "pushing the limits" of Kdenlive with some of my > projects (although I'm always proud to do so.) I didn't even realize how > much of an issue the lack of GPU utilization was until I tried Resolve for > a month. (I still ended up coming back to Kdenlive because it's libre > software and because Resolve doesn't work with the open-source AMDGPU > drivers and ROCm OpenCL, though.) > I had the same "revelation" once I tried Olive. I was like "Wo my hardware CAN process it this fast? WOW!" > As far as "starting over" goes, my impression is that that's the point of > refactoring sections of the program: to get rid of the old built-up crud > that's holding things back. I would be interested to know how closely the > Kdenlive devs work/are willing to work with MLT to improve it alongside the > frontend. > If that's the case, then I'm looking forward to it. > Just my two cents, since it seems like it's sharing day. > > - Jacob Kauffmann > Thanks! -- - Tobiasz 'unfa' Karoń www.youtube.com/unfa000
Re: A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Tobiasz Karoń wrote: > If you want to just "cut the tape" and don't need any effects or compositing > - Kdenlvie may be acceptable. But not if you want to do anything more complex. I don't think this is true, and I strongly dislike the implication that people who use Kdenlive aren't "serious" editors. I've been using Kdenlive since at least 2012, and over the years, I've done all kinds of compositing, rotoscoping, color correction, chroma-keying, and other things with it beyond simply "cutting the tape." I do agree that the limitations you talked about are very real issues-- I have felt like I'm "pushing the limits" of Kdenlive with some of my projects (although I'm always proud to do so.) I didn't even realize how much of an issue the lack of GPU utilization was until I tried Resolve for a month. (I still ended up coming back to Kdenlive because it's libre software and because Resolve doesn't work with the open-source AMDGPU drivers and ROCm OpenCL, though.) As far as "starting over" goes, my impression is that that's the point of refactoring sections of the program: to get rid of the old built-up crud that's holding things back. I would be interested to know how closely the Kdenlive devs work/are willing to work with MLT to improve it alongside the frontend. Just my two cents, since it seems like it's sharing day. - Jacob Kauffmann
A story of a former Kdenlive's user (switched to Olive)
Hey! I've read Harald's e-mail and I thought maybe I'll share my Kdenlvie experience with you as well. I've been a heavy Kdenlive user for about 18 months, when I switched from Blender VSE, seeing it's not being worked on and I cannot expect the bugs that cripple my workflow to be ever fixed. About two months ago I've upgraded from 16 to 32 GB of RAM to help myself with editing videos in Kdenlive. A month later I immediately gave up using Kdeinlive, after I've discovered Olive. Olive is a very young project (about 20 months in development at this point). And it made me realize how painful it is to do my work with Kdenlive (or Blender VSE to be fair). Olive uses OpenGL for all image processing. It uses GLSL shaders for effects and compositing. I was even able to create a Despill effect myself to get a better Green Screen compositing. That being said I have a feeling that my trouble with Kdenlive will not lead to any progress, and I prefer to have issues with Olive that has a promising start and a community I can get in touch with easily. Also - it gives me an order of magnitude better experience than anything else right away, so why shouldn't iI use it? A minro problem was for the past year (or something?) I couldn't log into my KDE account, because they enforce using your real name as login, and I have diacritics in my name, I also can't use a password that I'd want so I had once to contact an admit to even log in, and I just don't have the tim deal with that.. That made me feel like the KDE community is making it harder for me to communicate. Why can't I use a login and password of my choosing? I find that a strange decision and I'm just out of the KDE forums until that's changed. I've stopped reporting bugs, also knowing that the refactoring is a priority. I think Kdenlive has some great functions, but is also a huge mess. There are three groups of effects based on keyframing (no keyframing, a table keyframing, and a timeline keyframing). The effects are affecting the image in ways they shouldn't - transform and wipe will change the color balance, whic is visible on the RGB parade - I show that in my rant video). The performance is abysmal if you want to do any compositing (which I do a lot). If you want to just "cut the tape" and don't need any effects or compositing - Kdenlvie may be acceptable. But not if you want to do anything more complex. There's a UV Mapping compositor, that's useless, because the whole pipeline is only 8-bit. Which gives you 256x256 pixels addressable. GPU support is non-functional and crashes Kdenlive every time for me. Multithrraded rendering or even playback is broken and gives me white frames every time. My recent two serious projects got random audio sync issues and audio clicks (randomly different with each render). That was the last straw for me, and I snapped. Here are the two last videos I've made with Kdenlive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMP8uGGpzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulks8T6z6BU The issues created by Kdenlive in my work has cost me too much time and beard hair. Even my wife is relived that I'm not using it any more. I bless the Heavens for Olive, as I can retain my sanity and make videos that I love. I think that as long as Kdenlive is coupled with MLT - it'll be inhereting it's problems. I don't know how that looks on the inside, but I guess Kdenlive is probably doing a lot of work just to workaround MLT's limitations and quirks. Also - Kdenlvie has a long legacy, which is holding it back. Olvie has non of that - and kowing it's developers and community - it migth become a tool even better than some of the industry standards like Adobe Premiere (which also has a lot of legacy and quirks). Anyway - I've expressed my issues and frustration in a video: https://youtu.be/ym1brc2OcYQ After I published this, I one of the developers of Kdelvie cam to Olive Disocrd and we got in touch talking about the issues. I've send him my latest projects so he can investigate the audio clicks/desync issue (I couldn't reproduce it in a simmle project). I've decided to take that video down after a week. As I though maybe it's sending a needlessly negative message, but since I've decidd to make it public again, as there'struth there that has to be said, even if it's not nice to listen to. I hope you can undesrtand that. I hope Kdenlive can be reborn, but I am afraid a lot of things just need to be replaced entirely if it's going to ever become a truly modern video editor. In my honest opition (being completely unaware of the Kdenlive's internal structure) it'd be better to just go back to the drawing board and design an entirely new achitecture taking into account all experience of Kdenlive. That experience is probably the most valuable asset you guys have. I don't think you're gonna do that, as you've invested so much time and effort into it. I'm thinking about the "sunken cost fallacy". I'm a really sorry to say that - but I don't elbie any more
