KR> Engine Rebuild

[Al Hawkins]

Hi Dan

According to Great Plains assembly manual revised June 2003 on page 32, 
take of .005" to the thick washer,or add an additional thin washer,  if 
the hole does not line up.
Also the torque value is  60 to 70 ft-lbs.

Al Hawkins

Dan Heath wrote:
> Well, I have now finished the re-build of my VW.  It is now a 2276 running
> 8.5 to 1 compression.  I hope to finish the installation today or tomorrow.
> I did run into a little issue right at the end that some of you VW people
> may have had to deal with and can shed some light on what needs to be done
> about it.  
>
> After I torqued the prop hub bolt to 80# as stated in the GPASC manual for
> the force one hub, the holes in the bolt head did not line up with the holes
> in the hub, for the cotter key.  I checked the manual and it says to "sand"
> the washer down a little to get it to torque to the right place.  OK, so,
> having access to a milling machine and knowing that sanding on a piece of
> metal that hard, would only end up in bloody fingers, I took 2/1000 off the
> washer and torqued it again, only to have gained a very little.  I needed to
> get it turned around, one full "flat" on the bolt head, to get to where the
> hole is.  So I did a rough calculation and figured that I would have to end
> up taking 9.8/1000 off the washer to get it to where it needed to be, and
> then if I screwed up and took off too much, then it would be another, almost
> 10/1000 to get it to the next flat, which would not have a hole in it
> anyway.
>
>  
>
> The point of all this rambling, is to say that this seems to be an
> impossible task, which is why no one puts a cotter pin in a nut that has to
> be torqued.  Either you need to back off the 80#, which would leave you with
> a sloppy fit, or torque way more than 80# which would most likely break the
> hub and still not get you there.  Not being able to come up with an answer,
> I just put on  some Locktite, and torqued it back to 80#.
>
>  
>
> What have you other VW people, and I know you are still out there, done when
> faced with this problem.  I can't believe that no one has seen the problem,
> because the chances of its being right on, are very slim.  
>
>  
>
> My understanding of the purpose of this cotter pin, is to keep the bolt from
> backing out, so  why then, was it not made with reverse thread.  That is
> what I was instructed to do on my first VW engine, which was not a "force
> one" hub, and it worked just fine.
>
>  
>
> Daniel R. Heath
>
> da...@windstream.net
>
> See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
> the pics 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ___
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KR> Engine Rebuild

[Art Bruce]

Steve Bennett is at SNF. I attended his VW engine seminar Tuesday morning at
10 am even though I have already built my Great Planes 2180. He and Linda
have their regular booth set up and are waiting on customers as we speak.
You might try to call anyway, the calls could be forwarded to the cell that
he has on his hip.

Art Bruce - Bainbridge, GA

Maybe he will reply to my post, if he isn't at
SNF.

Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

Do what seems obvious to me - give Steve a call and ask him.

Ed J.

I did run into a little issue right at the end that some of you VW people
may have had to deal with and can shed some light on what needs to be done
about it.  

KR> Engine Rebuild

[Dan Heath]

Would have don’t that, but I figured that he would just tell me what he
already put in his book.  Maybe he will reply to my post, if he isn't at
SNF.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2009 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Ill
There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying
has begun.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Ed Janssen
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:29 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Engine Rebuild

Do what seems obvious to me - give Steve a call and ask him.

Ed J.

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Heath" <da...@windstream.net>

I did run into a little issue right at the end that some of you VW people
may have had to deal with and can shed some light on what needs to be done
about it.  



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KR> Engine Rebuild

[Ed Janssen]

Do what seems obvious to me - give Steve a call and ask him.

Ed J.

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Heath" 

I did run into a little issue right at the end that some of you VW people
may have had to deal with and can shed some light on what needs to be done
about it.  

KR> Engine Rebuild

[Dan Heath]

Well, I have now finished the re-build of my VW.  It is now a 2276 running
8.5 to 1 compression.  I hope to finish the installation today or tomorrow.
I did run into a little issue right at the end that some of you VW people
may have had to deal with and can shed some light on what needs to be done
about it.  

After I torqued the prop hub bolt to 80# as stated in the GPASC manual for
the force one hub, the holes in the bolt head did not line up with the holes
in the hub, for the cotter key.  I checked the manual and it says to "sand"
the washer down a little to get it to torque to the right place.  OK, so,
having access to a milling machine and knowing that sanding on a piece of
metal that hard, would only end up in bloody fingers, I took 2/1000 off the
washer and torqued it again, only to have gained a very little.  I needed to
get it turned around, one full "flat" on the bolt head, to get to where the
hole is.  So I did a rough calculation and figured that I would have to end
up taking 9.8/1000 off the washer to get it to where it needed to be, and
then if I screwed up and took off too much, then it would be another, almost
10/1000 to get it to the next flat, which would not have a hole in it
anyway.



The point of all this rambling, is to say that this seems to be an
impossible task, which is why no one puts a cotter pin in a nut that has to
be torqued.  Either you need to back off the 80#, which would leave you with
a sloppy fit, or torque way more than 80# which would most likely break the
hub and still not get you there.  Not being able to come up with an answer,
I just put on  some Locktite, and torqued it back to 80#.



What have you other VW people, and I know you are still out there, done when
faced with this problem.  I can't believe that no one has seen the problem,
because the chances of its being right on, are very slim.  



My understanding of the purpose of this cotter pin, is to keep the bolt from
backing out, so  why then, was it not made with reverse thread.  That is
what I was instructed to do on my first VW engine, which was not a "force
one" hub, and it worked just fine.



Daniel R. Heath

da...@windstream.net

See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 

KR> Engine rebuild.

[kenneth l wiltrout]

Mark---why do you think the pump was binding in the 1st place???

Kenny
Kutztown, pa
6399U

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:00 PM
To: KRnet; Corvair Net
Subject: KR> Engine rebuild.

As all of you know, My last flight only lasted to a climb to 800' AGL and a
180° back to the airport for a landing while loosing rpm. You also seen the
compression check I posted.
 Here is my diagnosis:
1) Oil temp was running high due to binding of oil pump. Yes, the oil pump
was so tight that I could not turn it without firmly gripping the
screwdriver handle and applying a great amount of force. It is a wonder I
did not break my distributor shaft. You should be able to turn a properly
set up oil pump by gripping the screw driver shaft with oil on your finger
tip and freely turning the pump. If you can not do this, you have problems.
2) I had re-adjusted the carburetor and actually had it set too lean even
though it ran smooth through all rpm ranges. This lean setting contributed
to my high cht's. 
3) Compression loss was due to my rings warping from the high temps caused
by the lean mixture. These were chrome rings and if you remember, my worst
compression reading was on # 2 at 80/46. number 5 was the next worst at
80/54.
4) Loss in rpm on takeoff: all of the above.

Here is my solution:
1) Re-set oil pump to within specs. Now she turns free and does not create
ant drag or friction.
2) Carburetor will be adjusted correctly when ready to start up.
3) Compression regained by honing cylinders and installing new rings. I have
completed the re-build of the left bank and achieved the following
compression without even running the engine.
 # 5 = 80/75
 # 3 = 80/76
 # 1 = 80/78
I still have to build the right bank.
4) I am installing a Tornado behind my Ellison to swirl the air/fuel mixture
for better distribution.

So, hopefully, I will be back in the air soon.


Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI 
Visit my web site: www.flykr2s.com
E-mail: flyk...@wi.rr.com
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9:14 AM

KR> Engine rebuild update.

[Mark Jones]

At 7:30 am this morning, N886MJ came to life once again. I only ran her long 
enough for the oil temp to start rising. and did not run it above 1500 rpm. 
This was mainly because it was raining and I did not want to get wet and melt. 
I am planning on being back at the airport this afternoon after the rain stops 
and fine tune her in preparation for flight tomorrow. In this rebuild, I 
installed two new pistons, new lifters, total seal rings, new oil filter, 
cleaned the oil cooler and lines to the cooler and several other minor things. 
All gauges were reading in their normal ranges for the start up run this 
morning and no oil leaks as yet. I will keep all posted as I progress through 
the test runs and flights.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI 
Visit my web site: www.flykr2s.com
E-mail: flyk...@wi.rr.com

KR> Engine rebuild.

[Mark Jones]

As all of you know, My last flight only lasted to a climb to 800' AGL and a 
180° back to the airport for a landing while loosing rpm. You also seen the 
compression check I posted.
 Here is my diagnosis:
1) Oil temp was running high due to binding of oil pump. Yes, the oil pump was 
so tight that I could not turn it without firmly gripping the screwdriver 
handle and applying a great amount of force. It is a wonder I did not break my 
distributor shaft. You should be able to turn a properly set up oil pump by 
gripping the screw driver shaft with oil on your finger tip and freely turning 
the pump. If you can not do this, you have problems.
2) I had re-adjusted the carburetor and actually had it set too lean even 
though it ran smooth through all rpm ranges. This lean setting contributed to 
my high cht's. 
3) Compression loss was due to my rings warping from the high temps caused by 
the lean mixture. These were chrome rings and if you remember, my worst 
compression reading was on # 2 at 80/46. number 5 was the next worst at 80/54.
4) Loss in rpm on takeoff: all of the above.

Here is my solution:
1) Re-set oil pump to within specs. Now she turns free and does not create ant 
drag or friction.
2) Carburetor will be adjusted correctly when ready to start up.
3) Compression regained by honing cylinders and installing new rings. I have 
completed the re-build of the left bank and achieved the following compression 
without even running the engine.
 # 5 = 80/75
 # 3 = 80/76
 # 1 = 80/78
I still have to build the right bank.
4) I am installing a Tornado behind my Ellison to swirl the air/fuel mixture 
for better distribution.

So, hopefully, I will be back in the air soon.


Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI 
Visit my web site: www.flykr2s.com
E-mail: flyk...@wi.rr.com

KR>Engine rebuild-high lift and short duration

[Dan Heath]

Orma,

When I built the engine for the Little Beast, I messed around with a lot of
cams and seem to remember that our engines turn slowly, compared to racing
engines.  For that reason, I remember something about long duration.  I hope
that Bob Hoover will chime in here, because he is the expert.  If he doesn't
 I suggest that you check with him before doing the cam thing.  Also, Steve
Bennett may have already figured this one out and you might want to check
with him. 

See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC

da...@kr-builder.org

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering

See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org

KR>Engine rebuild-high lift and short duration

[larry severson]

The VW shop looked at my setup. They said that the 120 degree cam would 
give me max torque at just under 4000 rpm.

When I built the engine for the Little Beast, I messed around with a lot of
>cams and seem to remember that our engines turn slowly, compared to racing
>engines.  For that reason, I remember something about long duration.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 

KR>Engine rebuild-high lift and short duration

[Mark Langford]

Duration is how you shift the powerband either lower or higher.   If you
want lots of torque at low RPM and don't care about high RPM (that's us),
you want short duration rather than long.   If you've upped the displacement
of the engine by boring and/or stroking, you'll probably need to compensate
for the lack of valve area by increasing the lift.  The stock cam with high
lift rockers is a step in the right direction, or the mildest of  "street"
cams.  Lift is a good thing, but too much of it can lead to accelerated
valve train wear.  I don't think valve train (cam, lifter, rockers) is the
big wear item on aircraft engines though, so that wouldn't be my determining
factor, personally.  You can just bolt on some higher lift rockers and get
the higher lift, but there are other ramifications (that's for Dan's sake).

Stock cams are something like 226 degrees of duration with .315" inches of
lift at the cam, and the mildest Engle 100 is 276 degrees of duration with
.374" of lift at the cam.  The Engle 100 would probably make a pretty good
cam for a 2180 airplane engine, but I'm just guessing.

I would think that Steve Bennett at www.GPASC.com would have a pretty good
idea what cam works best for aircraft use, and if he sells them, I'm sure
there's not much of a markup.  His prices have always struck me as being
very reasonable.

I've been told that Webcam makes something called the P-100 that's good for
aircraft use, but I just pulled that out of some pretty deep recesses, and
there may not actually be any such thing.  I think that's what was in the
Type 4 that I bought from Mark Stephens.

I just ran across this website at http://hometown.aol.com/dvandrews/cams.htm
that pretty well explains the relationships of duration and lift.

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford

KR>Engine rebuild-high lift and short duration

[veedu...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/20/2004 4:09:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
da...@alltel.net writes:

> I hope
> that Bob Hoover will chime in here, because he is the expert. 

--
---

Dear Dan (and the Group),

I don't consider myself qualified on the Type IV.  When I happened to have 
one in the shop I'd drive up to Mark Stephens place for parts & advice (they 
had 
some valve seat problems.) I think it's the best aircooled Volkswagen ever 
built but I simply haven't worked on enough of them to speak with any 
authority. 


-

As for the cam question in general, over on the AirVW Group (Yahoo) I've 
posted the specs for the A-series Continental, VW (1300 thru 1600; all the 
same), 
Ford 9N tractor (nearly identical to the Model A) and a few others for 
comparison purposes, along with some computerized dynamometer pulls.  For 
anyone 
interested in a whiff of reality, the data is there.  Alas, it does not agree 
with 
the horsepower-oriented Conventional Wisdoms on the nose of some many VW 
powered aircraft :-) 

As a point of interest, the power output of  flying Volkswagens built by 
myself and two other fellows, at different times and locations, unaware of each 
other until the advent of the Intenet, formed a neat cluster on the power curve 
despite different methods of measurement (although all were some form of 
torque meter). 

-

For the type of flying I do, I've found the basic chugger to be the most 
reliable VW conversion.  (A 'chugger' is an engine that in which peak power and 
torque occur at an rpm most suitable for swinging a prop typically 69 to 72 
inches in diameter.)

Since peak torque always coencides with peak volumetric efficiency, I focused 
on displacement and deep-breathing exercises :-)  Although there are a few 
chugger cams out there for VW's they are wildly unpopular unless the engine is 
attached to an orchard blower or water pump.  In fact, my most successful 
configuration simply borrows a page from the Volkswagen Industrial Engine 
Division 
and uses the stock cam, retarded four degrees.  This works fine for a grain 
auger or motor-generator set but when you open the engine up to anything over 
120cid or so I found it necessary to use the 1.25:1 lifters from the 
alcohol-burning engines built by VW du Brasil.  

I know VW offered a complete line of industrial engines based on the Type IV 
and if I were to do it all over again I would probably devote some time to 
winkling out their cam data, largely because of the expense in starting from 
scratch.  I think you have to put at least a hundred hours on an engine before 
you 
can define it with any degree of confidence.  I've done that many times with 
Type I's, back when when gas was cheap(*) and my nearest neighbors weren't all 
that close.  Now the yuppies have me walled in and rarely a week goes by when 
some blue-haired lady chuggs up the hill desperately eager to sell my 
'house'.  (Don't they know the difference between a 'house' and a home?)  Build 
an 
engine nowadays, I have to sneak it out to the airport to run it in.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

-R.S.Hoover

(*)  Most of the price of gasoline reflects transportation-related taxes.  If 
you live in the country, use gasoline for your tractor or other 
non-transportation applications, a drum of gas was about $17, delivered.  I 
built a test 
cell out behind one of the sheds, ran-in my engines there using two or three 
drums of gas per month.  (mid-70's thru early 80's).  Big problem was getting 
rid 
of the drums :-)