KR> now Tomahawk- of subject

[Joseph H. Horton]

 I have about 20 hours in a Tomahawk and I only stuck with it just
because I will not be defeated. I hated climbs in it because it would
hunt for direction and landings were not the most fun either but I did
get it down pat and then stopped flying it.
Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA.
joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:30:30 -0600 "Mark Wegmet" 
writes:
> Rumor has it that it was called a "Trauma-hawk" because it was "spin
> friendly". :-)
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On 
> Behalf
> Of Dave Arbogast, CISSP
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:46 AM
> To: KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Thrust Line issues
> 
> Funny, my instructor called them the "Trauma - hawk" because of the 
> T 
> tail being less responsive to prop wash when you need it the most - 
> 
> stall recovery.
> 
> Raising the trust-line I would think increases the loads on the 
> upper 
> half of the firewall. Maybe not enough to worry about, but I sure 
> like 
> the idea of more ground clearance for the prop.
> 
> -dave
> 

KR> now Tomahawk- of subject

[Jeff Scott]

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KR> now Tomahawk- of subject

[tinya...@aol.com]

I did most of my instruction in a Tomahawk, then bought a Grumman Tr2.  The Tr2 
was much more sensitive in pitch, but I quickly learned to love it.  Only 
complaint I had with the Tomahawk was the nose gear wanted to shimmy at times.  
Those that have flown it, have you ever done a HARD full stall and look back at 
the tail?  Yowwza!

Kevin Golden
Harrisonville, MO 

-Original Message-
From: jscott.pi...@juno.com
To: kr...@mylist.net
Sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: KR> now Tomahawk- of subject


I own a Tomahawk and fly it at least as much as the KR.  I haven't
figured out how to make a bad landing in it.  The oversized tail is so
effective through the landing and the gear is so soft, you have to be
really ham fisted to screw it up.

The Tomahawk is a bit more pitch sensitive than most trainers, so the
beginning student struggles a bit more learning the plane.  It was
built that way to make the tail large enough to be fully effective on
take off without it being in the prop wash.  The "T" tail design was as
dumb idea that was done for marketing purposes as it was built during
the hay day of the 727 and DC-9, both "T" tail jets.  The "spring" trim
was also a bad idea.  While it is functional, it is nowhere near as
effective as a trim tab.  

I often times introduce new pilots to the Tomahawk.  They are literally
terrified by the stories from others that once flew them as primary
students.  I take them through a stall series and maybe a spin entry
and recovery.  They come back wondering why all the horror stories.

The Tomahawk spins just fine.  However, recovery from a fully developed
spin requires doing the right thing, then being patient.  It won't fly
itself out like the Cessnas.  If you want to do spin training in one, I
recommend doing it with a CFI experienced in spin training.

Piper designed it to be a hands on flyer after interviewing CFIs and
finding that they wanted an airplane that students have to fly and
handle right to make it perform.  They designed what the CFIs asked
for, then got beat up because the CFIs and students didn't like it.

Now that you have some KR time behind you, go get in a Tomahawk again.
 You'll wonder how you could have ever struggled with such a pussycat.

It amazes me that a bunch of pilots that are building and flying one of
the least stable and most pitch sensitive airplanes in the homebuilt
market will line up to bad mouth a trainer for having the same trait,
only to a much lesser extent.  It wasn't the airplane that was causing
you to struggle as a student.  It was the student skills.  The airplane
was making you into a better pilot by making you struggle, but also
being forgiving in the process.

The amplified student horror stories have made the Tomahawk one of the
best buys in the GA market by keeping the prices depressed.  After
several hundred hours in my Tomahawk, the only real gripe I have is the
lack of yaw stability in turbulance.  It excels at the Bonanza waltz in
rough air.  

Interestingly enough, the "T" tailed Skipper that everyone thinks is a
Beech Tomahawk doesn't have the same issues.

Oh yes, and I do have a Tomahawk and Skipper both available for sale. 
The Tomahawk is mine, and the Skipper belongs to a friend.  I have done
most of the work on both of them over the last several years, including
top overhauls.

Now, let's move the discussion back to KRs.  Or we could search for
someone elses baby to call ugly. :o)

Jeff Scott
N1213W
N2398N


-- "Joseph H. Horton" <joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com> wrote:
 I have about 20 hours in a Tomahawk and I only stuck with it just
because I will not be defeated. I hated climbs in it because it would
hunt for direction and landings were not the most fun either but I did
get it down pat and then stopped flying it.
Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA.
joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:30:30 -0600 "Mark Wegmet" <markweg...@charter.net>
writes:
> Rumor has it that it was called a "Trauma-hawk" because it was "spin
> friendly". :-)
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On 
> Behalf
> Of Dave Arbogast, CISSP
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:46 AM
> To: KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Thrust Line issues
> 
> Funny, my instructor called them the "Trauma - hawk" because of the 
> T 
> tail being less responsive to prop wash when you need it the most - 
> 
> stall recovery.
> 
> Raising the trust-line I would think increases the loads on the 
> upper 
> half of the firewall. Maybe not enough to worry about, but I sure 
> like 
> the idea of more ground clearance for the prop.
> 
> -dave
> 

___
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KR> now Tomahawk- of subject

[Martindale Family]

Wasn't the issue also to do with the tail plane being masked by the 
wing/flap at high AoA thus reducing effectiveness in stall recovery. I think 
the 727s exhibited something called the "deep stall" for the same 
reasons.beyond a certain AoA you couldn't push forward to break the 
stall.


John Martindale
29 Jane Circuit
TOORMINA NSW 2452
AUSTRALIA

phone:  61 2 66584767 (H)
 61 2 66869075 (W)
mobile:  0403 049990
email:johnja...@optusnet.com.au
web: www.members.optusnet.com.au/johnjanet/Martindale.htm