Re: Re: userconfig broken
Alex Fiestas wrote:
>On Saturday 29 December 2012 12:30:13 Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I may be wrong, but I had always considered KDE to target both the
>user that
>> doesn't care much about computers and users that are more into them.
>The
>> more advanced user is the reason that all of the customization
>options are
>> important.
>Indeed customization is important, being able to manage groups from a
>GUI not
>so much since those users will not mind doing it from the CLI (and
>again it is
>something you hardly want to do).
>
>> While we should never enforce use of the GUI where it can be avoided,
>we
>> should, IMO, also strive to enable people that don't like command
>line to
>> avoid it. When I say Linux to people one of their first reactions is
>> commonly that they don't want to have to open a shell and type lots
>of
>> commands. The fact that I can honestly tell them that it's not
>necessary
>> makes them much more comfortable with trying it out.
>For reaching this point (using the cli) in the case we are talking
>about I
>have yet to read a usecase that is not figurative or super cutting
>edge.
>
>> Userconfig was developed as a kuser replacement. It was proposed to
>replace
>> it, but it never quite got to the top of the TODO list, so it's not
>part of
>> KDE SC.
>>
>> As far as targets for your development efforts, I think the "About
>Me"
>> module covers the basic case and you should try to encompass both
>kuser and
>> userconfig functionality in what you are doing. KDE SC already has
>two
>> user management functions ("About Me" and kuser) and I don't think it
>needs
>> three.
>>
>> Of course, Rome wasn't built in a day and software isn't either, so
>"Replace
>> userconfig/kuser completely" may be a longer term goal, but I think
>it's a
>> good one.
>>
>> As far as the case for group related functions goes, I think it is
>important
>> to be able to see a list of groups and membership in groups because
>"Is xxx
>> in group yyy" or "What users are listed as members of zzz" are
>reasonably
>> common troubleshooting/support questions. Personally, although I
>regularly
>> edit /etc/group in vim on my servers, I use userconfig on Kubuntu
>systems
>> because it's harder to screw something up. Just because I can do it
>by
>> hand, I prefer to take the safer route where I'm only
>checking/unchecking
>> boxes and not editing directly.
>Can you tell me why are you messing with groups in your Kubuntu box? In
>a
>server I can understand but in a desktop? Give me use cases !
>
>As a personal note, we (KDE) won't be able to move forward if we keep
>thinking
>on our old user base of hardcore users, do you know what most sysadmins
>do
>these days? Use osx. I wonder why.
>
>--
>kubuntu-devel mailing list
>kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
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As a relatively "regular" user, I do have to agree for the most part. However,
enough people use something like Virtualbox that needs some group editing. I
may be wrong but I do not recall instructions there to do this using any
method, just what group to add the user to. This is probably the only real life
case where this is needed, but will make people howl when they discover that
the gui tool is not there. Now I am one to try and figure out out but there are
many who won't, will gripe loudly that Kubuntu sucks etc.
There are a fair number of people who do advanced things without using the
advanced (cli) tools that this does need to be considered, perhaps.
Just my 1¢ though I am in agreement about a group administration gui not being
needed by default.
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Re: Re: userconfig broken
I'm with Alex on this one, adding users should be simple as possible
with the user getting 2 options, a normal user or a administrative
user. All normal users get access to things like
Bluetooth/Network/Printers and all admin users get sudo privileges.
Any admin who wants to add/remove a user from a group can either use
the command line and/or kuser/userconfig ( if/when it gets ported ).
I'm reasonably certain that the average user does not care about
groups.
Regards
Rohan Garg
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Alex Fiestas wrote:
> On Saturday 29 December 2012 12:30:13 Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I may be wrong, but I had always considered KDE to target both the user that
>> doesn't care much about computers and users that are more into them. The
>> more advanced user is the reason that all of the customization options are
>> important.
> Indeed customization is important, being able to manage groups from a GUI not
> so much since those users will not mind doing it from the CLI (and again it is
> something you hardly want to do).
>
>> While we should never enforce use of the GUI where it can be avoided, we
>> should, IMO, also strive to enable people that don't like command line to
>> avoid it. When I say Linux to people one of their first reactions is
>> commonly that they don't want to have to open a shell and type lots of
>> commands. The fact that I can honestly tell them that it's not necessary
>> makes them much more comfortable with trying it out.
> For reaching this point (using the cli) in the case we are talking about I
> have yet to read a usecase that is not figurative or super cutting edge.
>
>> Userconfig was developed as a kuser replacement. It was proposed to replace
>> it, but it never quite got to the top of the TODO list, so it's not part of
>> KDE SC.
>>
>> As far as targets for your development efforts, I think the "About Me"
>> module covers the basic case and you should try to encompass both kuser and
>> userconfig functionality in what you are doing. KDE SC already has two
>> user management functions ("About Me" and kuser) and I don't think it needs
>> three.
>>
>> Of course, Rome wasn't built in a day and software isn't either, so "Replace
>> userconfig/kuser completely" may be a longer term goal, but I think it's a
>> good one.
>>
>> As far as the case for group related functions goes, I think it is important
>> to be able to see a list of groups and membership in groups because "Is xxx
>> in group yyy" or "What users are listed as members of zzz" are reasonably
>> common troubleshooting/support questions. Personally, although I regularly
>> edit /etc/group in vim on my servers, I use userconfig on Kubuntu systems
>> because it's harder to screw something up. Just because I can do it by
>> hand, I prefer to take the safer route where I'm only checking/unchecking
>> boxes and not editing directly.
> Can you tell me why are you messing with groups in your Kubuntu box? In a
> server I can understand but in a desktop? Give me use cases !
>
> As a personal note, we (KDE) won't be able to move forward if we keep thinking
> on our old user base of hardcore users, do you know what most sysadmins do
> these days? Use osx. I wonder why.
>
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> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
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Re: Re: userconfig broken
On Saturday 29 December 2012 12:30:13 Scott Kitterman wrote:
> I may be wrong, but I had always considered KDE to target both the user that
> doesn't care much about computers and users that are more into them. The
> more advanced user is the reason that all of the customization options are
> important.
Indeed customization is important, being able to manage groups from a GUI not
so much since those users will not mind doing it from the CLI (and again it is
something you hardly want to do).
> While we should never enforce use of the GUI where it can be avoided, we
> should, IMO, also strive to enable people that don't like command line to
> avoid it. When I say Linux to people one of their first reactions is
> commonly that they don't want to have to open a shell and type lots of
> commands. The fact that I can honestly tell them that it's not necessary
> makes them much more comfortable with trying it out.
For reaching this point (using the cli) in the case we are talking about I
have yet to read a usecase that is not figurative or super cutting edge.
> Userconfig was developed as a kuser replacement. It was proposed to replace
> it, but it never quite got to the top of the TODO list, so it's not part of
> KDE SC.
>
> As far as targets for your development efforts, I think the "About Me"
> module covers the basic case and you should try to encompass both kuser and
> userconfig functionality in what you are doing. KDE SC already has two
> user management functions ("About Me" and kuser) and I don't think it needs
> three.
>
> Of course, Rome wasn't built in a day and software isn't either, so "Replace
> userconfig/kuser completely" may be a longer term goal, but I think it's a
> good one.
>
> As far as the case for group related functions goes, I think it is important
> to be able to see a list of groups and membership in groups because "Is xxx
> in group yyy" or "What users are listed as members of zzz" are reasonably
> common troubleshooting/support questions. Personally, although I regularly
> edit /etc/group in vim on my servers, I use userconfig on Kubuntu systems
> because it's harder to screw something up. Just because I can do it by
> hand, I prefer to take the safer route where I'm only checking/unchecking
> boxes and not editing directly.
Can you tell me why are you messing with groups in your Kubuntu box? In a
server I can understand but in a desktop? Give me use cases !
As a personal note, we (KDE) won't be able to move forward if we keep thinking
on our old user base of hardcore users, do you know what most sysadmins do
these days? Use osx. I wonder why.
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Re: userconfig broken
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 05:32:24 PM Alex Fiestas wrote:
> On Friday 28 December 2012 15:59:50 Yuriy Kozlov wrote:
> > Hi Alex,
> >
> > Here is something I wrote up a while ago on userconfig and its target use
> > cases as I saw it at the time:
> > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Guidance/Userconfig
> >
> > Maybe it would be good idea to start with that set of requirements, or
> > with
> > a new version if there is a consensus that things have changed. In any
> > case, having the use cases written down before development would help
> > answer questions like this.
>
> Well, that link has a description that says it all:
>
> Who it is for
> Slightly savvier users who want to add separate accounts for each person in
> their household.
> Should be easy to create a new user with typical permissions.
> Power users who are not quite at the sysadmin level and still prefer GUI
> tools to configuration files.
> Should expose all advanced features
>
> Now my question is, is Kubuntu targeting those users? Is that even a user
> group big enough to target to?
>
> I have been developing all my software targeting the group of users less
> interested in computers, and I believe Plasma desktop should be developed
> using that group in mind and offering alternatives for advance users.
>
> Example:
> -By default you receive files from bluetooth, nothing to configure.
> -If you are one of "those" users you can: change destination, activate
> "accept all from this device", share complete folders etc
>
> In the case of user management would be:
> -User wants to create a new user, s/he can easily do it
> -Advance user wants to add groups because... Well because he wants, he
> installs kuser/userconfig or use the command line.
>
> I want to know use cases for edit/create groups, if there are such I will be
> happy to implement support for it, if not I will make it so somebody can
> implement support for them easily and help him/her in the process.
I may be wrong, but I had always considered KDE to target both the user that
doesn't care much about computers and users that are more into them. The more
advanced user is the reason that all of the customization options are
important.
While we should never enforce use of the GUI where it can be avoided, we
should, IMO, also strive to enable people that don't like command line to
avoid it. When I say Linux to people one of their first reactions is commonly
that they don't want to have to open a shell and type lots of commands. The
fact that I can honestly tell them that it's not necessary makes them much
more comfortable with trying it out.
Userconfig was developed as a kuser replacement. It was proposed to replace
it, but it never quite got to the top of the TODO list, so it's not part of
KDE SC.
As far as targets for your development efforts, I think the "About Me" module
covers the basic case and you should try to encompass both kuser and userconfig
functionality in what you are doing. KDE SC already has two user management
functions ("About Me" and kuser) and I don't think it needs three.
Of course, Rome wasn't built in a day and software isn't either, so "Replace
userconfig/kuser completely" may be a longer term goal, but I think it's a good
one.
As far as the case for group related functions goes, I think it is important
to be able to see a list of groups and membership in groups because "Is xxx in
group yyy" or "What users are listed as members of zzz" are reasonably common
troubleshooting/support questions. Personally, although I regularly edit
/etc/group in vim on my servers, I use userconfig on Kubuntu systems because
it's harder to screw something up. Just because I can do it by hand, I prefer
to take the safer route where I'm only checking/unchecking boxes and not
editing directly.
Scott K
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Re: Re: userconfig broken
On Friday 28 December 2012 15:51:44 Scott Kitterman wrote: > On Friday, December 28, 2012 10:34:22 AM Àlex Fiestas wrote: > > Why would an average user want to add or modify groups? Or adding an user > > to them? > > > > I'm willing to do the work but so far I have found no real reason for it. > > > > Power users can always use kuser since it is the app designed for them. > > That would leave us in a bit of a difficult position since we ship > userconfig by default since forever in Kubuntu and it does support group > management. If we were to ship a tool that didn't support it, some users > would rightfully see this as a regression. Good point, is what we are shipping part of the official KDE? If so I will have no option but to implement support for it somehow. > It is not rare to find online how-to's that suggest making changes in group > membership, so I think it's not just power users that will care about this. I consider this a corner case, but in anyway most of these tutorial imply using th cli already so they will have to stop following the tutorial to do something using the GUI and then going back to the cli? That's super unrealistic imho. > While it can be done copy/paste in konsole, I think it's better to give > users tools that enable them to do everything in the GUI if they choose. Well, that will make us Windows, and windows is a big fail when it comes to allowing advance users to do stuff. Anyway, if we were already giving a GUI alternative to do everything we won't be having this conversation since I will be writing group support, but we are not. -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: Re: Re: userconfig broken
On Friday 28 December 2012 15:59:50 Yuriy Kozlov wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Here is something I wrote up a while ago on userconfig and its target use > cases as I saw it at the time: > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Guidance/Userconfig > > Maybe it would be good idea to start with that set of requirements, or with > a new version if there is a consensus that things have changed. In any > case, having the use cases written down before development would help > answer questions like this. Well, that link has a description that says it all: Who it is for Slightly savvier users who want to add separate accounts for each person in their household. Should be easy to create a new user with typical permissions. Power users who are not quite at the sysadmin level and still prefer GUI tools to configuration files. Should expose all advanced features Now my question is, is Kubuntu targeting those users? Is that even a user group big enough to target to? I have been developing all my software targeting the group of users less interested in computers, and I believe Plasma desktop should be developed using that group in mind and offering alternatives for advance users. Example: -By default you receive files from bluetooth, nothing to configure. -If you are one of "those" users you can: change destination, activate "accept all from this device", share complete folders etc In the case of user management would be: -User wants to create a new user, s/he can easily do it -Advance user wants to add groups because... Well because he wants, he installs kuser/userconfig or use the command line. I want to know use cases for edit/create groups, if there are such I will be happy to implement support for it, if not I will make it so somebody can implement support for them easily and help him/her in the process. -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: Re: userconfig broken
Hi Alex, Here is something I wrote up a while ago on userconfig and its target use cases as I saw it at the time: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Guidance/Userconfig Maybe it would be good idea to start with that set of requirements, or with a new version if there is a consensus that things have changed. In any case, having the use cases written down before development would help answer questions like this. ~ Yuriy On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 4:34 AM, Àlex Fiestas wrote: > Why would an average user want to add or modify groups? Or adding an user > to them? > > I'm willing to do the work but so far I have found no real reason for it. > > Power users can always use kuser since it is the app designed for them. > > Cheers. > On Dec 27, 2012 2:30 PM, "Rafael Belmonte" wrote: > >> Good work Alex, but I think that with userconfig we should be able to add >> one (or more) users to a group, please add this feature too, if not, many >> people will need kuser or will have to edit system files to do it. >> >> >> 2012/12/27 Alex Fiestas >> >>> Today I have started to work on this seriously, this is what I've got so >>> far: >>> >>> http://wstaw.org/m/2012/12/27/plasma-desktopwb1877.png >>> >>> The data that can be seen in the userlist is real, the form at the >>> moment is >>> completely fake and doesn't work. >>> >>> I hope to make it stable/usable by the end of the week if my weekend >>> agenda >>> keeps as it is right now. >>> >>> When would be the timeline to to package it? >>> >>> Cheers ! >>> >>> -- >>> kubuntu-devel mailing list >>> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel >>> >> >> >> -- >> kubuntu-devel mailing list >> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel >> >> > -- > kubuntu-devel mailing list > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel > > -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: userconfig broken
On Friday, December 28, 2012 10:34:22 AM Àlex Fiestas wrote: > Why would an average user want to add or modify groups? Or adding an user > to them? > > I'm willing to do the work but so far I have found no real reason for it. > > Power users can always use kuser since it is the app designed for them. That would leave us in a bit of a difficult position since we ship userconfig by default since forever in Kubuntu and it does support group management. If we were to ship a tool that didn't support it, some users would rightfully see this as a regression. It is not rare to find online how-to's that suggest making changes in group membership, so I think it's not just power users that will care about this. While it can be done copy/paste in konsole, I think it's better to give users tools that enable them to do everything in the GUI if they choose. Scott K -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: Re: userconfig broken
I agree, It's a nice thing to have, but the average user doesn't care about groups until some oddly-written software package forces them to think about it, in which case they're often provided a command. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 4:34 AM, Àlex Fiestas wrote: > Why would an average user want to add or modify groups? Or adding an user > to them? > > I'm willing to do the work but so far I have found no real reason for it. > > Power users can always use kuser since it is the app designed for them. > > Cheers. > On Dec 27, 2012 2:30 PM, "Rafael Belmonte" wrote: > >> Good work Alex, but I think that with userconfig we should be able to add >> one (or more) users to a group, please add this feature too, if not, many >> people will need kuser or will have to edit system files to do it. >> >> >> 2012/12/27 Alex Fiestas >> >>> Today I have started to work on this seriously, this is what I've got so >>> far: >>> >>> http://wstaw.org/m/2012/12/27/plasma-desktopwb1877.png >>> >>> The data that can be seen in the userlist is real, the form at the >>> moment is >>> completely fake and doesn't work. >>> >>> I hope to make it stable/usable by the end of the week if my weekend >>> agenda >>> keeps as it is right now. >>> >>> When would be the timeline to to package it? >>> >>> Cheers ! >>> >>> -- >>> kubuntu-devel mailing list >>> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel >>> >> >> >> -- >> kubuntu-devel mailing list >> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel >> >> > -- > kubuntu-devel mailing list > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel > > -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: Re: userconfig broken
Why would an average user want to add or modify groups? Or adding an user to them? I'm willing to do the work but so far I have found no real reason for it. Power users can always use kuser since it is the app designed for them. Cheers. On Dec 27, 2012 2:30 PM, "Rafael Belmonte" wrote: > Good work Alex, but I think that with userconfig we should be able to add > one (or more) users to a group, please add this feature too, if not, many > people will need kuser or will have to edit system files to do it. > > > 2012/12/27 Alex Fiestas > >> Today I have started to work on this seriously, this is what I've got so >> far: >> >> http://wstaw.org/m/2012/12/27/plasma-desktopwb1877.png >> >> The data that can be seen in the userlist is real, the form at the moment >> is >> completely fake and doesn't work. >> >> I hope to make it stable/usable by the end of the week if my weekend >> agenda >> keeps as it is right now. >> >> When would be the timeline to to package it? >> >> Cheers ! >> >> -- >> kubuntu-devel mailing list >> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel >> > > > -- > kubuntu-devel mailing list > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel > > -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: Re: userconfig broken
Good work Alex, but I think that with userconfig we should be able to add one (or more) users to a group, please add this feature too, if not, many people will need kuser or will have to edit system files to do it. 2012/12/27 Alex Fiestas > Today I have started to work on this seriously, this is what I've got so > far: > > http://wstaw.org/m/2012/12/27/plasma-desktopwb1877.png > > The data that can be seen in the userlist is real, the form at the moment > is > completely fake and doesn't work. > > I hope to make it stable/usable by the end of the week if my weekend agenda > keeps as it is right now. > > When would be the timeline to to package it? > > Cheers ! > > -- > kubuntu-devel mailing list > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel > -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: Re: userconfig broken
Today I have started to work on this seriously, this is what I've got so far: http://wstaw.org/m/2012/12/27/plasma-desktopwb1877.png The data that can be seen in the userlist is real, the form at the moment is completely fake and doesn't work. I hope to make it stable/usable by the end of the week if my weekend agenda keeps as it is right now. When would be the timeline to to package it? Cheers ! -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: userconfig broken
On Wednesday 19 December 2012 15:03:46 Harald Sitter wrote: > userconfig in raring is broken because of two things: > a) it provides a KCM desktop file that uses kpythonpluginfactory to load > userconfig in a kcm shell, that factory is not compatible with python >=3.2 > (I have a fix for this) > b) userconfig itself is not compatible with python3 > > so, we can do any of the following to resolve the situation: > a) switch to kuser (less debian geared, uglier UI, but C++ so no crap > runtime compat issues like these) > b) someone ports userconfig to python3 > c) we ditch the entire KCM idea and integrate userconfig as foreign app in > systemsettings (which will start it as separate window, which is the case > anyway as userconfig is root-only) so we can force it to use python2 > (should be easy to do) > > it ought to be noted that unless someone ports userconfig to python3 it > will have to be dropped in the long run. alternatively if someone feels > strongly about this issue, we have some sort of c++ port of userconfig > going that was supposed to replace kuser in KDE SC, the port could be moved > along for a long-term fix. > > HS I'm working on User Management, Hope to push some first version this weekend. You should use that :p -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
Re: userconfig broken
Harald Sitter wrote: >userconfig in raring is broken because of two things: >a) it provides a KCM desktop file that uses kpythonpluginfactory to >load >userconfig in a kcm shell, that factory is not compatible with python >>=3.2 >(I have a fix for this) >b) userconfig itself is not compatible with python3 > >so, we can do any of the following to resolve the situation: >a) switch to kuser (less debian geared, uglier UI, but C++ so no crap >runtime compat issues like these) >b) someone ports userconfig to python3 >c) we ditch the entire KCM idea and integrate userconfig as foreign app >in >systemsettings (which will start it as separate window, which is the >case >anyway as userconfig is root-only) so we can force it to use python2 >(should be easy to do) > >it ought to be noted that unless someone ports userconfig to python3 it >will have to be dropped in the long run. alternatively if someone feels >strongly about this issue, we have some sort of c++ port of userconfig >going that was supposed to replace kuser in KDE SC, the port could be >moved >along for a long-term fix. The current pykde in raring provides kpythonpluginfactory for both Python and Python 3. If that's not working, we should fix it. Porting to Python 3 needs to be done unless afiestas finishes his C++ replacement first. I don't think it's urgent. Scott K -- kubuntu-devel mailing list kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
