Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
Dear Lyn, again a bit late. In a certain time If I am right at the beginning of 20th century a sort of Binche (with lots of tallies) was named Feen-Spitze - fairy-lace. Ilske - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
I have been following this thread about the loss of very fine flax with interest. I know that about ten years ago Bart & Francis in Belgium were looking into the possibility of producing fine linen thread again, and Francis Busschaert kindly sent me a sample of 130/2 NeL linen. His comments at the time were that the thread was brittle but they didnât want to use wax/cornflower/starch because that would affect the end product and that the mercerisation process doesnât work on very fine linen. He also said that separating out the finest fibres was horrendously expensive and would yield maybe only 10kg from a 200Kg bale. That would have made the price of a 250 metre spool about 12-15 Euros (ten years ago) which was more than he thought even the specialist lacemaking market would bear. I measured the sample as 34 wraps/cm which isnât that fine when compared to the finest cottons. The next thickness up in the B range of linen is 60/2 NeL is still available on their website, and which I have measured as 24 wraps/cm. I believe that the reason for the loss of the finest cultivars was a combination of commercial pressures and the mechanisation processes which were not suited to the finest flax and that these were exacerbated by wars. Like it or not, the world has moved on and very fine linen is not available any more. There are other fibres which can be spun into very fine threads, cotton and silk are best suited to lacemaking, though the finest are the synthetics and I guess that medical use is the driver in the development of those. Brenda > On 31 Aug 2018, at 05:50, robinl...@socal.rr.com wrote: > > 1) The cost of breeding over many generations to produce the extra-fine fibers, > > (2) the cost of growing the more fragile plants (those fibers are what keep the plants standing upright), > > (3) the cost of trying to spin and weave on mass-market machinery (where speed trumps delicacy and fragile fibers can't take the stress), and > > (4) the delicacy of the resulting fabric (can't be machine washed or machine dried or machine dry-cleaned, and even hand-washing has to be extra-careful) Brenda in Allhallows paternos...@appleshack.com www.brendapaternoster.co.uk - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Faery Lace?
In my studies of lace history, the old very-fine threads ceased being produced about 1800. The cotton gin was invented about 1790. It let cotton be produced in great quantity at a much cheaper price than fine linen. For comparison, if a spool of cotton were $10, a spool of linen would be $100. Combine that with the fact that cotton thread is smooth and runs through machine gears without binding. Linen thread tends to have some thicker spots in it. The new lace machines used the smoother, less expensive thread for multiple reasons. Also, the newest thing is the fashion fad, so cotton lace (especially machine made) was in vogue. It didn't matter that it was cheaper, thicker, and possibly not quite as pretty as handnmade -- it was the "in" thing. By 1800, the linen thread was no longer in demand, and the supplies in the warehouse were not moving. The long, thin variety of flax was no longer planted. The thread supplies that they did have on hand were gradually used so there were no more available by 1830. Eventually, even the seeds to the special flax variety were gone. Alice in Oregon -- where I just won State Fair Best in Division for my lace lappet, made from the OIDFA lappet book we got a few years ago. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
Kim touches on another point in this discussion. We may not have fine linen thread because of extinction (perhaps brought on by war) of the extra-fine cultivars, but that's not the whole story. We also don't have them because breeding new extra-fine cultivars isn't economically feasible. Aside from hobby lacemakers, there's not a huge demand; not with so many other fibers to chose from. (1) The cost of breeding over many generations to produce the extra-fine fibers, (2) the cost of growing the more fragile plants (those fibers are what keep the plants standing upright), (3) the cost of trying to spin and weave on mass-market machinery (where speed trumps delicacy and fragile fibers can't take the stress), and (4) the delicacy of the resulting fabric (can't be machine washed or machine dried or machine dry-cleaned, and even hand-washing has to be extra-careful) all conspire to make extra-fine linen not so popular. So if it can't be mass-marketed and it can't get enough public adoration to sell at very, very high price, it's just not going to bring in enough money to make it in our economic climate. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com Parvum leve mentes capiunt (Little things amuse little minds) Kim Davis wrote: Regarding the thread, I am also interested in this topic. I have heard a few theories surrounding why we don't have it anymore. The first was that the fields were bombed by the Germans in WWI, and the strain of plant destroyed. This didn't make sense to me because we stopped seeing the fine threads very much a good century before WWI. The French Revolution makes more sense time wise. However, it seems hard to believe that we could not cultivate this flax if we wanted to. I am eager to here what your agricultural searches turn up. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
As a hand spinner, I am also interested in the thread questions Kim raises. I have heard various reasons given regarding why we can’t have linen thread as fine as was used in early pieces. The question of supply and demand may be one of the most plausible. The other point I have always been amazed by is that I assumed that the thread used in these early pieces was hand spun, also remembering that it would be at least two-ply, thereby making the fineness even more of a marvel. Now I wonder if this assumption is incorrect. I have found descriptions of machine spinning of linen thread beginning in the late 1700s. Binche pre-dates that, so what do others think about the early super fine threads being hand spun? Vicki in Maryland - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
Regarding the thread, I am also interested in this topic. I have heard a few theories surrounding why we don't have it anymore. The first was that the fields were bombed by the Germans in WWI, and the strain of plant destroyed. This didn't make sense to me because we stopped seeing the fine threads very much a good century before WWI. The French Revolution makes more sense time wise. However, it seems hard to believe that we could not cultivate this flax if we wanted to. I am eager to here what your agricultural searches turn up. During the tour in Belgium we visited the flax museum as well as the topic coming up later in the week. I forget who it was that said this, but they proposed it was more of a supply and demand issue. We began seeing courser threads about the time machines were invented. People began trying to compete with machines by making heavier and/or less detailed lace. They suggested the demand for such fines thread went away, so were no longer a viable money making endeavor for thread manufacturers. I found this to be a very interesting theory. Perhaps when we are finished with this topic we should create a list of urban lace legends regarding thread. Also, I tried to change the topic, but my email program will not allow me to. Maybe someone else can? Kim - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
Hi Lorelei, I can't remember where I got that. I hope it's not lace urban legend! We can't use the lack of fine-thread Val after 1780-1800 because I think that may be circular: I suspect the lace is often dated on the basis of what is assumed about the thread. I've done some superficial looking without success. Let me do some more serious digging and we'll see if there's anything in some sort of authoritative source. It might require checking with a herbarium in Europe, which would be interesting. Nancy Connecticut, USA On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 19:55 Lorelei Halley wrote: > about "extinction of the cultivars" for super fine linen thread. I have > been thinking along those lines for a long time, but never came across > any corroboration. However, I thought it happened in WWI, not the > French revolution. Where did you find that statement? > - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Faery Lace?
Nancy I don't disagree at all. What I found interesting was your statement about "extinction of the cultivars" for super fine linen thread. I have been thinking along those lines for a long time, but never came across any corroboration. However, I thought it happened in WWI, not the French revolution. Where did you find that statement? I'm just curious. Subject: Re: [lace] Faery Lace? "I think all modern Binche falls into "Point de Fee" or "Fairy Lace All the commercial Binche lace, for the tourist industry, is Point de Fee. (or if linen the thread will be thicker than the finest thread pre-1800 of course, because of the extermination of the flax cultivars for the finest linen threads, during the French Revolution.) ...older Binche is more densely woven, although it can be very light-weight because of how extremely fine some of the pre-1800 linen is." Nancy - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Faery Lace?
Lynn It is my impression, perhaps imprecise, that "fairy lace" was just another name for Binche. More specifically, the kind of Binche that has lots of little spots. From my website, go about 40% down the page. http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlacerevivalerastraight.html Here is a specific example -- http://lynxlace.com/images/lace342a.jpg Lorelei Subject: [lace] Faery Lace? "a rather small circle doily of Binche with the Antelope from Anne-Marie Verbecke-Billiet's Syllabus of Binch. The label described it as Faery Lace. Maybe it was Fairy LaceI pointed out to the sales person where this came from, and he pulled out the pages with this pattern on it from the Syllabus, maintaining that this was, indeed, a form of Binch called Fae[i]ry lace. OK, experts, is there a form of Binche called Faery Lace? Lyn in Brussels - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
Hi Devon and Lyn, I think all modern Binche falls into "Point de Fee" or "Fairy Lace", except for a few recent designs done by AnneMarie Verbeke-Billiet, Kumiko Nakasaki, and a few others, in the old style. All the commercial Binche lace, for the tourist industry, is Point de Fee. About the style of the lace itself: "modern" Binche, that of the last 150 years, is a more open cobweb-y lace, almost always with lots of tallies forming motifs. This lace is often cotton (or if linen the thread will be thicker than the finest thread pre-1800 of course, because of the extermination of the flax cultivars for the finest linen threads, during the French Revolution.) There are older instances of Binche that have some tallies but they are much rarer, and the older Binche is more densely woven, although it can be very light-weight because of how extremely fine some of the pre-1800 linen is. This is my understanding (as of today :-). Lorelei may want to differ on some of it. The terminology is a little confusing anyway, since it could be argued that "Binche" only first appears in the 19th C (making Point de Fee a synonym of Binche lace), and that all the earlier pieces are old Valenciennes. Nancy Connecticut, USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Faery Lace?
<> There is a form of Binche called Point de Fee, which translates to Fairy (Faery) Lace. But, usually we hear it in the US as Point de Fee. It is a form of Binche with a lot of tallies in it. I think a lot of it was made in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Devon On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:51 AM wrote: - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Faery Lace?
I am in Brussels. The Museum of Costume and Lace has one room of lace. There are drawers of lace, in chronological order, as well as a film. I did buy the booklet concerning it, and tried to take good pictures, without flash, of all the lace. I do believe that lace exhibits miss the mark if they do not add what is known about the piece of lace being exhibited. I realize that lace does tend to by anonymous, but telling what you know can make a big difference. More importantly, even, modern lace, as an art form, needs to have indications of the artist's intent, as it is a new art form, and the public needs education. There were the usual disappointing lace shops, although some did have displays of handmade lace. One shop that was quite interesting was in the Gallerie de Ste. Hubert, the Manufacture Belge de Dentelles. A lot of real lace on the walls, at least. One struck me. It was a rather small circle doily of Binche with the Antelope from Anne-Marie Verbecke-Billiet's Syllabus of Binch. The label described it as Faery Lace. Maybe it was Fairy Lace, I took no pictures in the shop. I pointed out to the sales person where this came from, and he pulled out the pages with this pattern on it from the Syllabus, maintaining that this was, indeed, a form of Binch called Fae[i]ry lace. OK, experts, is there a form of Binche called Faery Lace? Lyn in Brussels, Belgium, where the weather is cool, rather damp, and it's time to go home to the heat wave. "My email sends out an automatic message. Arachne members, please ignore it. I read your emails." - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
