[lace] Mixing threads
Co-incidentally at last Friday's Poole Bobbin Lace Circle meeting our speaker was a lady who works as a volunteer restoring the vestments worn by the clergy at Westminster Abbey. All are worn and some are very old - one was originally used at the Coronation of Charles II in 1661 and I believe she said it is worn on Good Friday each year. She said that eventually silk disintegrates to dust, so they are always replacing parts of the vestments. If necessary, they remove the embroidery and remount it using polyester thread - yes Jeri, polyester thread. They don't pull it down tight. Repairs to embroidery are done using embroidery floss that can be bought in any craft shop. Because the vestments are kept wrapped in large cotton sheets in trunks, and only see daylight when they are actually being worn, the colours haven't faded and they can be matched with modern floss. The articles are only cleaned with computer vacuum brushes to remove the dust, including the one from 1661. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Mixing threads
Hello Jeri and All, perhaps I miss some mails and didn't know exactly why mixing threads is a certain problem but my thaughts to this subject are those. I don't think that anybody who make traditional laces has the idea to mix threads of different sources, f. e. linnen with cotton. On the other hand modern textiles are often mixed still for being better washable. But there is today a broad part of lacemaking in a contemporary way where the effect often comes from mixing materials. Still collars, which should be washable. So it depends what one want to make. I personally never had prioblems to work with different tread quality on the same bobbin but I prefer to have only one thread on one bobbin. It is still possible to work with several bobbins taken as only one. There are a few synthetic threads on the market which are awful to work with because they became longer and longer. Best wishes for the courage to experiments Ilske Am 08.09.2008 um 02:01 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It is quiet today, so maybe a good time to comment on all the correspondence the past two weeks about "mixing threads". Firstly, I've had some very useful correspondence about this subject with Francis in Belgium, who has tried to explain the structure of threads to our Arachne list. Please respect what he has said. He knows a great deal about threads and their manufacture. His comments have value. For some reason, we have members who wish to experiment-experiment-experiment, without a foundation of the tried- and-true lessons learned and practiced by generations of lacemakers before us. They learned the basics at the knees of experts. Some entrepreneurs must have attempted such experiments. If they could stretch their investment-in-threads money, they would have. You don't see illogical experiments in quality laces of great beauty. You do sometimes see flimsy laces that will snag easily, and probably they are in such poor condition that you will not invest in them for your lace collections. Lesson learned. We all have to agree, I hope, that the old laces are very beautiful. They did not make an emotional "statement". They strove for beauty and some degree of usefulness, and we respond with an emotional appreciation. As I read about mixing two threads of different materials or twists on the same bobbin, I could not but wonder what will happen the first time someone washes or attempts to have such a lace item cleaned. Modern dry cleaners just cannot keep up with all the challenges of combined fibers and attachments. Home cleaning by the experimenters or even conservators can lead to complete disaster when the threads tighten up at different rates. It is puzzling that with so little time for making lace, today's lacemakers would abandon all consideration of making lace somewhat permanent and easy to care for! After the first 30 years of my life, embroidering and other needlework since age 7, I found and joined an Embroiderers' Guild of America chapter 40 years ago (OK, add it up, as it speaks of experience) and began learning about techniques of many lands and about threads/fabrics and their properties. This is good basic training that in time saves the needle worker time. I would, for example, not mix threads on a bobbin or needle. This is because I know what may happen, but more because I think one fiber (creatively used) is enough to fill the need for "self-expression". With years of looking at needlework of the past and (then) present, and sometimes trying to repair it, I know what we can learn from these items (especially the experiments of the 1970's!) Fortunately, there was the great teacher - *really great* - who taught classes a course about Chinese embroidery restoration. Now, anyone who has looked at silk embroidery and gold couched down with silk thread must know that these two (silk/metal) do not marry any better than weighted silk (a woven mixture of silk and a tin bath) did in the 19th Century. Through expansion/contraction in everyday environments, the silk "moves" and the metal "cuts" the silk. A lot of this work ends up requiring very expensive restoration (putting in new stitches to hold metal, and usually adding a stronger backing than the silk could provide to hold all together). If restoration is required, the item is no longer a collectible or antique in original condition. It may look good to the eye, but it has lost value by becoming "restored". One of the most impressive restoration facilities is the Royal School of Needlework at Hampton Court Palace, and each of the 4 times I've been there, they have been restoring mostly silk embroideries. In modern embroidery, especially cross-stitch kits, many instructions encourage the use of embroidery floss and synthetic metallics in the same needle. They do not have the same properties!
[lace] Mixing threads
It is quiet today, so maybe a good time to comment on all the correspondence the past two weeks about "mixing threads". Firstly, I've had some very useful correspondence about this subject with Francis in Belgium, who has tried to explain the structure of threads to our Arachne list. Please respect what he has said. He knows a great deal about threads and their manufacture. His comments have value. For some reason, we have members who wish to experiment-experiment-experiment, without a foundation of the tried-and-true lessons learned and practiced by generations of lacemakers before us. They learned the basics at the knees of experts. Some entrepreneurs must have attempted such experiments. If they could stretch their investment-in-threads money, they would have. You don't see illogical experiments in quality laces of great beauty. You do sometimes see flimsy laces that will snag easily, and probably they are in such poor condition that you will not invest in them for your lace collections. Lesson learned. We all have to agree, I hope, that the old laces are very beautiful. They did not make an emotional "statement". They strove for beauty and some degree of usefulness, and we respond with an emotional appreciation. As I read about mixing two threads of different materials or twists on the same bobbin, I could not but wonder what will happen the first time someone washes or attempts to have such a lace item cleaned. Modern dry cleaners just cannot keep up with all the challenges of combined fibers and attachments. Home cleaning by the experimenters or even conservators can lead to complete disaster when the threads tighten up at different rates. It is puzzling that with so little time for making lace, today's lacemakers would abandon all consideration of making lace somewhat permanent and easy to care for! After the first 30 years of my life, embroidering and other needlework since age 7, I found and joined an Embroiderers' Guild of America chapter 40 years ago (OK, add it up, as it speaks of experience) and began learning about techniques of many lands and about threads/fabrics and their properties. This is good basic training that in time saves the needle worker time. I would, for example, not mix threads on a bobbin or needle. This is because I know what may happen, but more because I think one fiber (creatively used) is enough to fill the need for "self-expression". With years of looking at needlework of the past and (then) present, and sometimes trying to repair it, I know what we can learn from these items (especially the experiments of the 1970's!) Fortunately, there was the great teacher - *really great* - who taught classes a course about Chinese embroidery restoration. Now, anyone who has looked at silk embroidery and gold couched down with silk thread must know that these two (silk/metal) do not marry any better than weighted silk (a woven mixture of silk and a tin bath) did in the 19th Century. Through expansion/contraction in everyday environments, the silk "moves" and the metal "cuts" the silk. A lot of this work ends up requiring very expensive restoration (putting in new stitches to hold metal, and usually adding a stronger backing than the silk could provide to hold all together). If restoration is required, the item is no longer a collectible or antique in original condition. It may look good to the eye, but it has lost value by becoming "restored". One of the most impressive restoration facilities is the Royal School of Needlework at Hampton Court Palace, and each of the 4 times I've been there, they have been restoring mostly silk embroideries. In modern embroidery, especially cross-stitch kits, many instructions encourage the use of embroidery floss and synthetic metallics in the same needle. They do not have the same properties! There is some stretch in the cotton and the two (cotton/metallic) twist around each other in the needle. Then, stitches cannot be laid flat (did you know that if more than one strand of floss is used, they are supposed to be laid side-by-side for better coverage and to make the embroidery look like smooth and untwisted?) If threads are twisted (when not intended), it is not quality embroidery. This is information not given in stitching kits, so do-it-yourself (and learn-it-yourself) stitchers wonder why their time-consuming efforts do not "look like the picture". With lessons, I learned to stitch completely with floss, then thread a needle with metallic and stitch over or around to get sparkle that did not disturb the floss. The result is more pleasing and worth the effort -- years later, it is nice not to be critical of it. Remember, if you use metallic, the item needs to have a hanging tag or label warning not to press with a hot iron. This prohibition renders many items u
RE: [lace] Mixing Threads
Betty, what is a "jeweler's loop" Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK - No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 22/08/2008 06:48 - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Mixing Threads
Hello, Gentle Spiders, I'm back! I just resubscribed after being in Rockford for a wonderful week of IOLI lacemaking, meeting old and new friends, and simply having a grand time. We travelled and spent some time in the Plains before returning to Virginia. To add to this "Mixing Threads" thread, never far from me is my jeweler's loop. It is invaluable in comparing the texture and size of two threads. Mind you, I don't take Brenda's *Threads for Lace* with me too often, and it is also invaluable in comparing threads, but the loop always travels in my lace case. Happy Lacemaking, Betty Ann in Roanoke, Virginia USA - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Mixing Threads
Brenda Paternoster wrote: In 30 years time it's quite likely that most of the threads around today will be discontinued, your stash will be vintage and the patterns will require something not yet available! Nothing is set in stone, experiment with what you have and get to know how the different types of thread work up and in time you will know what you like and what you don't. And to that, all I can add is that no truer words were never spoken. Read it and weep. Put it in a cross-stitch sampler over your lacemaing pillow, engrave it in your memory, and live and lace accordingly. Therein lies a major challenge in lacemaking. I've wracked my brain for an expression similar to "separates the men from the boys", and obviously, for lots of reasons, "separates the girls from the women" doesn't even come close (and is insulting as well - not to just the females in the equation, but to the men and boys as well!!)! But... in more words rather than less, the more experience you have with working with various threads, the more you understand them (intrinsically), and the more you are able to substitute one thread for another (based on Brenda's research, of course!). This implies that you spend a lot of time experimenting with lots of different options. And this is where Brenda's book(s) become your best friend. She has done the groundwork which allows you to determine the comparative dimensions of various threads. Beyond that, you must work the threads to determine how the tensile values of threads compare to others - in your particular application. I'm certainly not suggesting that "Threads for Lace" is simply a resource for beginners. If you, as a beginner, use it to compare "like" threads, in order to find a suitable substitute, then you'll be a happy lacemaker. If, going a few steps further, you also use it to compare dimensions of threads which have different attributes... you become a pioneer, and will be able to help differentiate the qualities of threads which share similar dimensions. But the bottom line is just as Brenda (our thread Guru) has said... the threads we use and get attached to will always be evolving, and we just have to keep up with the changes as they are thrown at us. And that is why we need to keep up a continual dialogue with Brenda - as long as she will tolerate us!!! TTFN Clay Clay Blackwell Lynchburg, VA, USA - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Mixing Threads
Wendy, Brenda is probably too modest to mention but, her book on threads is invaluable! As well as listing most threads known to man (or woman - or lacemaker!) she also tells you how many wraps and, how to calculate said wraps. So - if you haven't already obtained it, it really is one of those books which we all ought to have. Most general suppliers sell it, and you can also get it from Brenda herself - look on her website. Take care - and may your pins never bend. Carol - in Suffolk UK - Original Message - From: "Brenda Paternoster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Wendy Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [lace] Mixing Threads Hello Wendy - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Mixing Threads
Hello Wendy I am making an edging, the book says to use DMC Cotton Perle 8 with DMC 80 Cordonnet Special. Well I have the Perle but didn't have any Cordonnet, so I have used Venus 70 instead. My problem is that it is very hard work as they seem to be fighting each other by that I mean that tensioning is very difficult as they don't slide if that is the right word. I have also substituted the Perle for double Venus for the outer fan edging so I could have the right colour. Venus is very similar to DMC Cordonnet - it's a tad thicker than Cordonnet 80, more like Cordonnet 70, but both are double plied, 2S/3Z. Is your problem with all the bobbins or just with the pairs wound double?. If it's all the bobbins - are you used to using double plied thread such as DMC Cordonnet, Special Dentelles, Coats crochet and Venus crochet? This type of thread is firmer and rounder than single plied thread and doesn't squash together as much. If your problem is only with the bobbins wound double it could be that one of the threads was tensioned more than the other when the bobbin was wound. Is there a tip so that I can ensure this doesn't happen when I try to use substitute threads. If only we had the money to get the correct threads each time. I am slowly building up my thread library so fingers crossed in the next 30 years I might have the right ones each time LOL. In 30 years time it's quite likely that most of the threads around today will be discontinued, your stash will be vintage and the patterns will require something not yet available! Nothing is set in stone, experiment with what you have and get to know how the different types of thread work up and in time you will know what you like and what you don't. Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Mixing Threads
Wendy St Dogmaels wrote: I am making an edging, the book says to use DMC Cotton Perle 8 with DMC 80 Cordonnet Special. Well I have the Perle but didn't have any Cordonnet, so I have used Venus 70 instead. My problem is that it is very hard work as they seem to be fighting each other by that I mean that tensioning is very difficult as they don't slide if that is the right word. I have also substituted the Perle for double Venus for the outer fan edging so I could have the right colour. == Perle Cotton has low twist, and 2 plies, which makes it kind of "sticky". The Venus 70 is an apt replacement for DMC 80 Cordonnet Special, both are about the same size and 6 plies, tightly twisted. Well, first off, if threads don't slide well against each other, there are two solutions: 1. Tension harder. I worked a pattern in 40/3 linen and it was like pulling rope! Working that pattern was like being at the gym, a real workout. 2. Tension more often, so the "stickiness" doesn't accumulate. Is there a tip so that I can ensure this doesn't happen when I try to use substitute threads. If only we had the money to get the correct threads each time. === There's no guarantee that the "correct" threads will be any more well-behaved than a substitute. I am slowly building up my thread library so fingers crossed in the next 30 years I might have the right ones each time LOL. = As for having the right threads in hand? LOL, ROTFL I have enough thread to open a store, (too true!!) and I still buy it by the handful! Even if you have the right thread, is it the right color? I like Tamara's answer to the problem, in that she bought the whole color line of a thread, but I haven't done it yet. Dunno why, maybe it's because I think it's too confining Patty - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Mixing Threads
HI All I have encountered a small problem that I thought I would post so that any inexperienced lace makers as myself can see the solution. I am making an edging, the book says to use DMC Cotton Perle 8 with DMC 80 Cordonnet Special. Well I have the Perle but didn't have any Cordonnet, so I have used Venus 70 instead. My problem is that it is very hard work as they seem to be fighting each other by that I mean that tensioning is very difficult as they don't slide if that is the right word. I have also substituted the Perle for double Venus for the outer fan edging so I could have the right colour. Is there a tip so that I can ensure this doesn't happen when I try to use substitute threads. If only we had the money to get the correct threads each time. I am slowly building up my thread library so fingers crossed in the next 30 years I might have the right ones each time LOL. Wendy St Dogmaels _ Make a mini you on Windows Live Messenger! - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
