RE: [lace-chat] Gender of names
Re: Leslie/Lesley. It may be a generation/regional thing. When I was a child in southern Ontario in the 60s, in my pre-Avital incarnation, kids would say to me, "'Leslie'? That's a *boy's* name!" Yet, in the 70s, my high school phys ed class had *four* female Leslies. In fact I don't think I ever knew a "Lesley." Re: first names. A linguistics prof/friend whose area of expertise was language and gender told me that once a name is used for females, it tends to die out for males. That certainly holds for Valery, Hillary (and variants), Julian, and others. Or maybe it only holds for old Roman names. I've noticed the same in Hebrew names. It's becoming increasingly common for girls to have formerly male names like Daniel (probably spelled Danielle in English) and Ariel (despite the Little Mermaid, Ariel is predominantly a man's name in Israel). We also have a whole slew of unisex names like Simcha, Sima, Sharon (yes!), and Dror. Mind you, the choice of Hebrew women's names is far smaller than men's (no surprise when you read the Bible or Talmud), so a lot of the women's names are modern names derived from flowers or stones. My sister is named Tacey, from the Latin "tacere" (now there's a misnomer). When we were young, she could never find personalized stationery, placemats, or name plates, which are important to little girls. I once told her that I'd read in the paper that people with unusual names have a greater chance of ending up in prison. We're still on speaking terms. As for Ms/Mrs, I'm glad that Hebrew has only one form of address (geveret) for women and it doesn't indicate anything about marital status, so we've been spared that battle. Israel is a fairly informal society, so I use my first name for most contexts and "Dr." (PhD) only in academic settings, where pecking rank becomes important. I once told my doctor to call me Mrs. Pinnick when he did the "Me, doctor. You, Jane" routine, but that's an exception. I was feeling irritable that day. ;-) Avital in Maale Adumim, Israel > -Original Message- > From: Martha Krieg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I agree with you about Marion/Marian - but my female cousin Leslie > would be surprised! I don't know that there are many male Leslies in > the US; I think all the females I've known have been Leslie.> To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Gender of names
I agree with you about Marion/Marian - but my female cousin Leslie would be surprised! I don't know that there are many male Leslies in the US; I think all the females I've known have been Leslie. At 11:04 PM +0100 8/27/06, Margery Allcock wrote: Tamara wrote: in Polish, "Marian" is a male name; in English, it's not :) I think, in English, this depends on the spelling: "Marion" is male (John Wayne was born Marion Robert Morrison on May 26, 1907); Marian Montgomery (the jazz singer) on the other hand was female. There are some other names which depend, for their gender, on the spelling - e.g. Leslie is male, and Lesley is female, as far as I know. Margery. [EMAIL PROTECTED] in North Herts, UK To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Martha Krieg [EMAIL PROTECTED] in Michigan To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Names and titles
"My lover" is quite common in Bath. It may sound strange, but it's normally said with a really thick burr and is just used instead of "love" or "dear". I don't mind the name being used as long as it's being used almost out of habit, not in any sort of "little woman" way. Title/name-wise I'm simply Helen Tucker. I'll answer to Miss Tucker if you want, but I prefer Helen. I went for a hospital appointment once where the convention was to call any grown-up woman Mrs Surname. Unfortunately, they hadn't told me that and spent quite a while calling for Mrs Tucker before I realised that they might mean me. Mrs Tucker is my mum or my gran, not me! While I was at uni, there seemed to be a fairly even split of those who you called Dr/Professor Whatever and those that preferred to be known by their first name. However, during the short time I spent at UCL in London, they were all referred to by title, possibly just because of the more formal feel to the university. I'm currently working at one of the local hospitals and am having fun trying to work out how to refer to the varying levels of doctors. Most of the 1st & 2nd year doctors (the house officers) are much the same age as me and I feel silly calling them Dr so I don't tend to. The registrars and consultants are different though and I always use Dr or Mr unless they tell me not to. Interestingly enough, female consultant surgeons are always Miss, never Mrs (I have no idea what surname they might use though if they are married) Back to the original thing about wives taking their husbands names. I do know that if a letter comes to Mrs SP Tucker then its for my mum but the nearest I've seen recently is Mr & Mrs SP Tucker rather than Mr SP & Mrs BA Tucker. Personally, I'd change my surname when I marry, but, depending on job, might keep my maiden name at work At 22:13 28/08/2006, Jean Nathan wrote: Carol wrote: In some areas you could be called be called by the not-intended-to-be-derogatory term of "chuck" or "lass", and in Scotland "hen". I'm sure there are lots more, but these spring immediately to mind. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK Helen, Somerset, UK "Forget the formulae, let's make lace" -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 25/08/2006 To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Names and titles
Carol wrote: In some areas you could be called be called by the not-intended-to-be-derogatory term of "chuck" or "lass", and in Scotland "hen". I'm sure there are lots more, but these spring immediately to mind. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] RE: names & titles
Hi All, I answer to almost anything - 'Carol' spelled Carole, Carroll, Carrolle, Caroll . all sound the same, and when correspondence is sent, it usually says 'Mrs C. E. Adkinson' on the envelope, so there's no problem at all there.The problems come with the surname - 'Adkinson' spelled with a 'D' is *very* unusual - when I last looked, none even in the London telephone directories, and when I contacted an Adkinson in the Lancashire area, where we lived for several very happy years, he turned out to be a cousin of my husband. So - another on the Christmas card lists. Isn't it funny what aggravates us though - I am perfectly happy to be called Mrs, but get unreasonably annoyed when I am referred to as Ms!But there again, I am old enough to get a bit prickly when my husband is referred to as my 'partner', and I am asked what my 'given' name is instead of my 'Christian name' - oh dear - perhaps I have already turned into one of the 'Grumpy Old Women'. Carol - in Suffolk UK. - Original Message - From: "Helen Bell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: [lace-chat] RE: names & titles > I went to school (in Australia) with a Vivian who was a female. > > The other interesting one is when selecting names for a baby, which > spelling do you choose? > > We named our son Jonathon, because I didn't realize there was > 'Jonathan', but for Katie we chose Katharine, because we thought it was > a little less common spelling (and I liked Katharine Hepburn). > > Not a lot of variation for Helen, but I did have a former boss who > occasionally used the Greek version in the office, which didn't bother > me, but rather amused me at first. > > Cheers, > Helen, Aussie in Denver > > To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: > unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Names & Titles
Hi All, This thread is making me chuckle!When I first went to Newcastle, in the north of England, I couldn't wait for someone - anyone! - to call me 'Pet'. And when I stopped to ask for directions, I could have kissed the chappie who obliged by calling me 'Pet' - I have never thought that calling a person 'Love', or 'Sunshine' or anything else is the least bit derogatory, but it can be downright unpleasant if someone calls one by name, but sneeringly! So - perhaps it is all in our perceptions.. Carol - in Suffolk UK. - Original Message - From: "Helen Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [lace-chat] Names & Titles > My pet hate is when someone who is young enough to be my granddaughter > calls me "Luv". Ugh!! Told one young thing of about 16 that I > was not her "Luv" and what's more, I never would be. > To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] RE: names & titles
I went to school (in Australia) with a Vivian who was a female. The other interesting one is when selecting names for a baby, which spelling do you choose? We named our son Jonathon, because I didn't realize there was 'Jonathan', but for Katie we chose Katharine, because we thought it was a little less common spelling (and I liked Katharine Hepburn). Not a lot of variation for Helen, but I did have a former boss who occasionally used the Greek version in the office, which didn't bother me, but rather amused me at first. Cheers, Helen, Aussie in Denver To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Names and titles
Dear Lise-Aurore, And then, there's the usage in French, where I am referred to as Madame le docteur. I'm not to crazy about that, but it is difficult to make people believe that I'm a Monsieur. I was rather distressed this spring, when everyone in France seemed to want to call me Mademoiselle. How very insulting I did speak up, and insisted on Monsieur. Having read your complicated email, I now really have no idea what gender you are. I had always assumed you were female, but now am not so sure. I really don't care anyway! To me you're just another lace-maker :) who probably walks on 2 legs and writes English at least. David in Ballarat Lise-Aurore Lise-Aurore Lapalme, PhD [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 995-9065 facsimile/télécopieur (613) 992-8581 Natural Resources Canada/Ressources naturelles Canada 580 Booth, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0E4 Government of Canada/Gouvernement du Canada To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Name genders, spelling and confusion
On 28 Aug 2006, at 13:52, Jean Nathan wrote: So when he died, we were most interested to see if he'd got married under the name of Edward or Edwin. If Edward, would it mean that he and his "wife" weren't really married? No it wouldn't - in England your name is what you call yourself; a change of name (from Edwin to Edward) providing it isn't done for fraudulent reasons is perfectly legal without formalities such as deed poll, the only problems would be proving it was the same person. Lots of people are formally known by one name and informally by another. Would that have implications for his will, his wife and his children? Only proving that Edward and Edwin were the same person All turned out OK - he'd got married as Edwin, fought in WW2 as Edwin, and, although earlier wills were signed by Edward, the last one was signed by Edwin. Brenda http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/ To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] re: the spelling of names
At work we had a Chinese secretary. One day she reorganized our pigeon holes and mine said: Angus (instead of Agnes). I went to see her and told her that I may be a cow, but I am not Scottish! She did not understand it, but was enlightened by one of her colleagues. The upshot was that I remained Angus on my pigeon hole. Served me right, I suppose. Agnes Boddington - UK Bobbin maker - will ship worldwide To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Names and titles
Wow! What an interesting thread. Personally, I cannot abide being called Miss, Mrs or Ms. Never could, before marriage, during marriage, or after, always hated them, from as far back as I can remember. I see them as sexist and degrading to women, since their sole purpose is to indicate marriage status. Where are the male titles that indicate marriage status? Oh, I know that Ms was originally designed to be used as Mr., but that is not what happened. As far as I'm concerned, there should be one title that indicates adult human being, and one that indicates young human being. Mr. works as an adult human being title for me. Yes, there have been some interesting episodes when I stood in front of people and asked to be addressed as Mr, but I take this immensely seriously. While I was married, my name was hyphenated. If people did not pronounce both names, I didn't answer. If people used his first name in referring to me, I didn't answer. I answered to my name only. Since he worked with the Canadian and American military, you can imagine the difficulties I had. On the other hand, I have never really cared if people want to use the full first name, or just half. Lots of people have difficulty pronouncing Aurore, so I don't mind being called Lise, or Lise-Aurore. I have since partly solved the title problem. Having completely a PhD, when asked my title, I use Dr. Nice, not sexist, has no marriage status or gender connotations. I like it. But, there remains the problem of many forms, especially the ones you fill in electronically, that do not recognize Dr. In those cases, I either refuse to fill in the form and send a message to the administrator, or fill in the form with Mr. and then send a message to the administrator. And then there are the people, like my mother, who insist that I have no right to the title Dr. because I am not a medical practitioner. And then, there's the usage in French, where I am referred to as Madame le docteur. I'm not to crazy about that, but it is difficult to make people believe that I'm a Monsieur. I was rather distressed this spring, when everyone in France seemed to want to call me Mademoiselle. How very insulting I did speak up, and insisted on Monsieur. Lise-Aurore Lise-Aurore Lapalme, PhD [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 995-9065 facsimile/télécopieur (613) 992-8581 Natural Resources Canada/Ressources naturelles Canada 580 Booth, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0E4 Government of Canada/Gouvernement du Canada To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Name genders, spelling and confusion
My name, Jean, in the UK and a lot of other countries is female. In France (and probably others), it's male. Name confusions can be interesting and in some cases rather worrying. My father-in-law was born in 1919 and was always known as 'Ted', which for as long as anyone can remember, he said was short for Edward. When he applied for a passport in the early 1980s, he couldn't find his birth certificate, so requested a copy. When it arrived he found that he had been registered as 'Edwin'. He was genuinely surprised. So when he died, we were most interested to see if he'd got married under the name of Edward or Edwin. If Edward, would it mean that he and his "wife" weren't really married? Would that have implications for his will, his wife and his children? All turned out OK - he'd got married as Edwin, fought in WW2 as Edwin, and, although earlier wills were signed by Edward, the last one was signed by Edwin. Some time in his life, he'd obviously just got confused, but all important documents were in his correct name. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] RE: The Spelling of Names
My name is spelled as Vickie on my birth certificate; yet most people spell it every way but the correct way. At work, there is a Vicky. Even when people see my name spelled correctly in the To: field on the e-mail, they know my name is spelled Vickie, or they see that I signed the prior e-mail as Vickie, they still address me as Vicky in the e-mail text. I have been brave enough to tell some of these people Vicky is the other lady. Even that hasn't made a difference. They still spell my name as Vicky. I always check on the correct spelling of someone's name before I send an e-mail to others because of how often people mispell my name. Vickie McKinney Colorado USA To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] RE: The Spelling of Names
If you request a copy of a birth certificate or similar and it arrives with a strange spelling of a name, don't presume that it is correct, especially if you can back it up with other documents. When we applied for our marriage license, the lady at the desk told my husband that his future mother-in-laws name was spelt wrong. He pointed out to her that his future wife knew how to spell the name and it was indeed correct. She still did not believe him and said she would check her register. After disappearing for a few minutes, she returned with a very red face, no apologies, just a marriage license. A few years later my husband requested a copy of his birth certificate. When it arrived his christian name, Barrie was spelt wrong... Barry. When he informed the Registrar about the mistake he was told that it was indeed the correct spelling. After Barrie explained to him that he had been given this name and this spelling some 40 odd years prior, they agreed to double check. Guess what we received in the mail... one correctly spelt Barrie. Julie from New Zealand To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Gender of names
Hello David As a genealogist I think you'll find it's often the way the Registration Clerk happens to right it down at the time. At the front of every English/Welsh birth register there are instructions as to how the register should be filled in according to different circumstances, there is also a note about the spelling of names according to gender ie Jesse/Jessie, Francis/Frances etc. As the registers are not normally seen by the public this probably isn't common knowledge. There's also a note about variations in spelling of names such as Sidney/Sydney. Of course not all Registrars got it right every time! especially in the early years when many of the informants were unable to read and write so couldn't check what he'd written. I have a friend born 1949 who's Deirdre instead of Dierdre because the Registrar couldn't spell. Some Registrars had problems as new names were introduced. Phyllis especially caused trouble - Phylis, Philiss, Phillys etc, also Alison - Alicon, Alicean. Nowadays though many parents take delight in concocting odd names. Brenda http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/ To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
