Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Anthony Walter via lazarus]

Juha,

I saw someone had had modifications and unfortunately it caused the
appindicator to stop working on my desktop. I rolled back the version to my
last check in and it worked again. I also found that on the Cinnamon
desktop you can add a systray applet and the old Gtk2 style tray icons
work, albeit in a separate applet contain in your panel.

I have a few projects I am working on in addition to my tutoring of kids. I
want to work on the Lazarus Gtk3 widgset and get it working enough to
compile and run Lazarus with it. I have soem changes to it already that
made some stuff work a lot better, but I haven't worked on the Gtk3
widgetset for about 8 months. When I do I try to coordinate with David.

Thanks, Anthony.
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Re: [Lazarus] Close all menu item ?

[Juha Manninen via lazarus]

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 5:54 PM Juha Manninen 
wrote:

> Ok, project inspector showing the closed project is clearly a bug.
>

I fixed this in r62813.

Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Juha Manninen via lazarus]

On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 10:09 AM Anthony Walter via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

> I was looking at the Unity tray icon code I submitted a while back and it
> had stopped working on my desktop environment.
>

David Bannon, forum name dbannon, made a version for GTK3 based on your
work. You may know that already but anyway...
Maybe you can join forces for a solution that works on many desktops. It
requires maintenance yes, but Linux desktops have some standards. The
situation is not completely hopeless.

Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Marco van de Voort via lazarus]

Op 2020-03-27 om 10:52 schreef Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus:


I didn't mean to imply such a conclusion.

I just observe it and think it is simply a fact.
If it hasn't changed in 20+ years, I doubt it ever will.


Good, then we agree, and I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting this to 
change either :-)


With the only remark that delivering some old stable with KDE/QT for 5 
year intervals and then workaround as many know issues in your app is 
maybe a doable workaround (it was 10 years ago, not sure about now). But 
even then the result is subpar compared to Windows.

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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020, Anthony Walter wrote:


Michael,

I've been using the Linux desktop as my primary OS since 2006. I had
dabbled in in before, but typically went back to windows when my networking
had troubles.

That said, I want Linux to be better. Yes I understand your points, but
please understand even when you choose an environment like Gnome vs KDE,
even they break things or don't provide all the tools you need. that is
the frustrating part, when an environment either breaks something like tray
icons or provides little to no assistance in completing some requirement,
such as hit testing a window for transparent pixels, or registering a
global hotkey.


I understand it is frustrating, and I'm not trying to minimize this.

But I see it as an inescapable consequence of not having central "management".

If you want Linux to be better:
In order for the linux desktop to become better, I think the only approach is 
to have a
strictly centralized "management".

As I see it, the linux kernel has such strict management (or at least 
stricter), and it thrives.

The first thing this strict management should enforce is:
backwards compatibility must be high in the list of standards to adhere to.

A reasonably vanilla application built on Windows 95 will still run today. 
I doubt many linux applications built in - say - 1997 will pass that test.


The whole delphi VCL counts on this backwards compatibility. 
In an Apple world, embarcadero would have bancrupted quickly, I suppose :(


In this sense, Lazarus does a good job: it provides this backwards
compatibility across platforms, if you stick to the LCL.

I open a lot of projects from 10 years ago for the upcoming Lazarus book: 
they still compile and work :-)


Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020, Marco van de Voort via lazarus wrote:



If you don't like that, stay away from Linux desktop.

While I largely agree, this reply simply assumes that the culture of 
laisez faire and low backwards compatibility is an universal open source 
trait. While that is a common link, I'm not so far as to say it is 
mandatory thing.


I didn't mean to imply such a conclusion.

I just observe it and think it is simply a fact.
If it hasn't changed in 20+ years, I doubt it ever will.

Whether this fact is good or bad is a personal appreciation.

I can only repeat: if you don't like it, stay away. No sense in getting
frustrated.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Anthony Walter via lazarus]

Michael,

I've been using the Linux desktop as my primary OS since 2006. I had
dabbled in in before, but typically went back to windows when my networking
had troubles.

That said, I want Linux to be better. Yes I understand your points, but
please understand even when you choose an environment like Gnome vs KDE,
even they break things or don't provide all the tools you need. that is
the frustrating part, when an environment either breaks something like tray
icons or provides little to no assistance in completing some requirement,
such as hit testing a window for transparent pixels, or registering a
global hotkey.
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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Marco van de Voort via lazarus]

Op 2020-03-27 om 09:27 schreef Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus:



This is an age-old discussion. Echo of the late 90-ies last century.

You're reasoning windows centric, where everything is centrally 
controlled.
(same for Mac) This gives a certain amount of stability, but you are 
at the

mercy of the controlling instance.

You will therefor always be disappointed when using linux desktop, 
which is about

liberty, choice and variety, and which lacks this stability or unity.

If you have rose coloured glasses, maybe.  Linux desktop is a proving 
and experimentation ground for those same big companies that mainly care 
for linux as a server. They also govern a lot of the direction, by 
simply shifting manpower.


Their touch is less prominent, but so is their commitment, as you've 
noticed.  Moreover they don't really cultivate an eco system for other 
programmers as much as e.g. Microsoft does.


The latter implies that when developing, you are also forced to make a 
choice;

what platforms to support and what not. Gnome, KDE, XFDE etc.


And preferably deliver the platform of your choice with your 
application.  The model to download applications and install on a random 
distro+version simply doesn't exist on Linux.




If you don't like that, stay away from Linux desktop.

While I largely agree, this reply simply assumes that the culture of 
laisez faire and low backwards compatibility is an universal open source 
trait. While that is a common link, I'm not so far as to say it is 
mandatory thing.

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Re: [Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020, Anthony Walter via lazarus wrote:


On Linux ...

I was looking at the Unity tray icon code I submitted a while back and it
had stopped working on my desktop environment. I was also looking for a way
to track user log off events, monitor clipboard history, and how to
register a global hot key.


Haha :-)

This is an age-old discussion. Echo of the late 90-ies last century.

You're reasoning windows centric, where everything is centrally controlled.
(same for Mac) This gives a certain amount of stability, but you are at the
mercy of the controlling instance.

You will therefor always be disappointed when using linux desktop, which is 
about
liberty, choice and variety, and which lacks this stability or unity.

The latter implies that when developing, you are also forced to make a choice;
what platforms to support and what not. Gnome, KDE, XFDE etc.

If you don't like that, stay away from Linux desktop.

Michael.
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[Lazarus] The Problem with the Linux Desktop

[Anthony Walter via lazarus]

On Linux ...

I was looking at the Unity tray icon code I submitted a while back and it
had stopped working on my desktop environment. I was also looking for a way
to track user log off events, monitor clipboard history, and how to
register a global hot key.

The sheer scattering of different systems, libraries, and what not that I
needed to search through to find solutions which are typically as simple as
a single function on a single document site with Windows prompted me to
write this brief diatribe:

The Problem with the Linux Desktop



I also posted that page to the r/linux
,
and am likely to get down voted there, but if anyone wants to chime in,
feel free. It might make use both feel better.
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