Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Kostas Michalopoulos]

I cannot run the demos since Java now blocks everything that hasn't
submitted to the certificate mafia - apparently that was easier than Oracle
sandboxing their VM, but i took a look on the PDF. And sadly this isn't a
real solution.

This only solves issues like positioning, but doesn't solve issues like
having the File -> Exit menu item being hidden in Mac builds, the "Apple"
menu (where the Quit menu item should be in Mac) being hidden in Windows
and Linux builds, using Cmd as a shortcut prefix instead of Ctrl, using
different images for Windows, Linux and OS X (since all these three OSes
have different design styles - ok Linux and Windows can share theirs, but
OS X icons tends to be larger and usually the toolbars have less buttons),
etc.

In fact personally i'd be against such "quick fix" solutions because
they'll provide less incentive to do the right thing later.


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk> wrote:

> On 2015-02-25 14:05, Kostas Michalopoulos wrote:
> > Even if Lazarus sticks to desktop only stuff, Windows,
> > Linux and OS X (...especially OS X) have different conventions when it
> > comes to layout, icons, spacing, etc and at the moment the only solution
> is
> > either ignore them (and have your program look awful under OS X)
>
> There is an alternative solution. In the fpGUI project we have ongoing
> efforts to port/implement a Object Pascal version of the java MIG Layout
> Manager. One of MIG's many features is support for OS specific
> conventions like spacing, button order etc.
>
>   http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> If you can, run the Swing Demo to see what everything MIG can do. Part
> of the demo is the OS specific conventions.
>
>
> Regards,
>   - Graeme -
>
> --
> fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
> http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/
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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 14:05, Kostas Michalopoulos wrote:
> Even if Lazarus sticks to desktop only stuff, Windows,
> Linux and OS X (...especially OS X) have different conventions when it
> comes to layout, icons, spacing, etc and at the moment the only solution is
> either ignore them (and have your program look awful under OS X)

There is an alternative solution. In the fpGUI project we have ongoing
efforts to port/implement a Object Pascal version of the java MIG Layout
Manager. One of MIG's many features is support for OS specific
conventions like spacing, button order etc.

  http://www.miglayout.com/

If you can, run the Swing Demo to see what everything MIG can do. Part
of the demo is the OS specific conventions.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Martin Schreiber]

On Wednesday 25 February 2015 14:02:33 Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:39:12 +
>
> Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:
> > On 2015-02-25 09:31, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> > > Of course you can use VFI to create custom views - for
> > > different platforms, devices, releases or whatever
> > > flavors.
> >
> > But the difference between Delphi and Lazarus would be how you reference
> > those forms. In Delphi FMX (as far as I understand) you would simply
> > reference your form as SomeForm - regardless of the target device. FMX
> > would resolve that automatically to the correct device specific
> > implementation if one exists.
>
> I guess, but I only saw the promotion video, so maybe it is not that
> simple.
>
> If someone wants the same in Lazarus:
>
> For example the {$R *.iPhone4in.fmx IOS} directive can be replaced with
> {$ifdef iphonesim}{$R *.iphone4in.lfm}{$endif}
>
> The LCL (or msegui or whatever GUI lib) needs to be extended to search
> and load the second lfm resource. That needs only a few lines of code.
>
> And finally the IDE needs to be extended to load/update the secondary
> lfm.
>
> > Whereas in Lazarus LCL's VFI you would have different units and
> > different form names for each target. So you would have to wrap all
> > those in IFDEF's. Is this correct?
>
> Well, you could do it without IFDEFs, but then all resources are
> compiled into the binary. Or you can load the lfm files via another
> mechanism.
>
MSEi18n actually works with such an approach. It builds different 
resource-dll's/so's for different languages based on master form resource 
files (MSEgui counterpart of Lazarus *.lfm files) and a property table with a 
column for every language. The application loads the coresponding dll/so 
based on the language settings.
Several years ago MSEi18n already has been used to adapt the gui of an 
application for different display environments:
http://wiki.freepascal.org/MSEide_&_MSEgui#An_embedded_system

It is planned to extend MSEi18n with a form designer in order to edit the 
widget properties graphically.

Martin

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Kostas Michalopoulos]

Well, a feature like this is something i suggested some years ago
already... although not for supporting mobile devices (IIRC iStuff wasn't
much of a thing then) but to properly support alternative layouts for
different OSes. Even if Lazarus sticks to desktop only stuff, Windows,
Linux and OS X (...especially OS X) have different conventions when it
comes to layout, icons, spacing, etc and at the moment the only solution is
either ignore them (and have your program look awful under OS X) or do
manual modifications via code inside {$IFDEF} blocks to adjust things
(which is painful, error prone and even that quite limiting - button order
or using a different set of icons is impossible, unless you position the
buttons manually and load the icons from the disk).

The form is already a separate file from the code and the IDE has
functionality to unload and reload it, how hard would it be to switch
between different form files? The hardest part would be to make sure all
forms provide the same components (especially when adding a new component
that might be under a different parent) but that could be left up to the
programmer (since the IDE already does a check to see if the code matches
the form so it can remove stuff like events or missing components, if you
try to launch a program with a form file that doesn't match, the IDE might
not allow you to run the program unless you add the missing components).


On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Sven Barth 
wrote:

> Am 25.02.2015 12:02 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys" <
> mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk>:
> >
> > On 2015-02-25 10:46, Sven Barth wrote:
> > > we don't
> > > need FM and can instead improve the LCL to handle this better including
> > > native look and feel.
> >
> > Okay, so does that mean currently LCL can't target Android or iOS, but
> > the possibility could exist in the future?  The reason I say this is
> > because to date there is no LCL-iOS or LCL-Android widgetset to choose
> > as a target.
>
> You cam do this with the CustomDrawn target. Please note that the
> widgetset for iOS is simply Cocoa and not "iOS" (though I don't know what's
> more usable: the Cocoa widgetset or the CustomDrawn-Cocoa widgets; I'd need
> to experiment with that on my Mac ^^ )
>
> > I haven't really tracked the progress of LCL over the last couple of
> > years. So I'm just trying to compare Delphi and Lazarus to see how they
> > compare for multi-platform and multi-device development. I'm trying to
> > see if Lazarus is a viable option for a future project, or am I better
> > off spending the small fortune and buy a copy of Delphi XE7 (or
> > AppMethod). Maybe alternatives like Xamarin is an option too, but I
> > would like to keep to the Object Pascal language if possible.
>
> You could also try Oxygene which supports both iOS and Android, but you'll
> have to write platform and framework specific code for both... (so no
> abstraction like the LCL does for example)
>
> Regards,
> Sven
>
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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Sven Barth]

Am 25.02.2015 12:02 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys" <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk>:
>
> On 2015-02-25 10:46, Sven Barth wrote:
> > we don't
> > need FM and can instead improve the LCL to handle this better including
> > native look and feel.
>
> Okay, so does that mean currently LCL can't target Android or iOS, but
> the possibility could exist in the future?  The reason I say this is
> because to date there is no LCL-iOS or LCL-Android widgetset to choose
> as a target.

You cam do this with the CustomDrawn target. Please note that the widgetset
for iOS is simply Cocoa and not "iOS" (though I don't know what's more
usable: the Cocoa widgetset or the CustomDrawn-Cocoa widgets; I'd need to
experiment with that on my Mac ^^ )

> I haven't really tracked the progress of LCL over the last couple of
> years. So I'm just trying to compare Delphi and Lazarus to see how they
> compare for multi-platform and multi-device development. I'm trying to
> see if Lazarus is a viable option for a future project, or am I better
> off spending the small fortune and buy a copy of Delphi XE7 (or
> AppMethod). Maybe alternatives like Xamarin is an option too, but I
> would like to keep to the Object Pascal language if possible.

You could also try Oxygene which supports both iOS and Android, but you'll
have to write platform and framework specific code for both... (so no
abstraction like the LCL does for example)

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:39:12 +
Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:

> On 2015-02-25 09:31, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> > Of course you can use VFI to create custom views - for
> > different platforms, devices, releases or whatever
> > flavors.
> 
> But the difference between Delphi and Lazarus would be how you reference
> those forms. In Delphi FMX (as far as I understand) you would simply
> reference your form as SomeForm - regardless of the target device. FMX
> would resolve that automatically to the correct device specific
> implementation if one exists.

I guess, but I only saw the promotion video, so maybe it is not that
simple.

If someone wants the same in Lazarus:

For example the {$R *.iPhone4in.fmx IOS} directive can be replaced with
{$ifdef iphonesim}{$R *.iphone4in.lfm}{$endif}

The LCL (or msegui or whatever GUI lib) needs to be extended to search
and load the second lfm resource. That needs only a few lines of code.

And finally the IDE needs to be extended to load/update the secondary
lfm.

 
> Whereas in Lazarus LCL's VFI you would have different units and
> different form names for each target. So you would have to wrap all
> those in IFDEF's. Is this correct?

Well, you could do it without IFDEFs, but then all resources are
compiled into the binary. Or you can load the lfm files via another
mechanism.
When programming multi platform the question is not *if* you need
IFDEFs, but how many.

 
Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:35:04 +
Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:

> On 2015-02-25 09:53, Michael Schnell wrote:
> > While (AFAIK, not having watched, yet) in Delphi XE this is only 
> > possible with FireMonkey
> 
> Correct, the Delphi video was just for the FireMonkey toolkit - hence my
> comment if LCL is only meant for desktop development (like VCL). I don't
> know what LCL is targeting these days... still only VCL compatibility,
> or slowly moving towards FMX compatibility.
> 
> Is the LCL-CustomDrawn widgetset maybe meant as the target for FMX
> compatibility?

I doubt that we can make the LCL FireMonkey compatible.
For the features you saw in the video customdrawn controls are needed.
So I guess LCL-Customdrawn could be used for that.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 11:39, Michael Schnell wrote:
> On 02/25/2015 12:26 PM, Michael Schnell wrote:
>> I once found the source code of the original library...
> "GLScene".

You mean this...  [http://sourceforge.net/projects/glscene/]

I think you got confused. FireMonkey originated from KSDev's product
called VGScene. --- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireMonkey]


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Michael Schnell]

On 02/25/2015 12:26 PM, Michael Schnell wrote:
 But of course they tried to remove it from the Internet after they 
changed the license.



Hmmm:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/glscene/Last Update: 2015-01-27

-Michael
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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 11:26, Michael Schnell wrote:
>> Well, considering that VCL is _very_ Windows specific,
> IMHO the LCL proves that close to all VCL features can be done as good 
> (or even better) with other Widgets sets than just "Windows".

I agree that the Lazarus team did a very good job, but I still consider
the LCL design to Windows centric (by looking at what I had to implement
to get LCL-fpGUI to work). And as you might guess, the reason I started
fpGUI Toolkit is because LCL was (and still is - in my opinion) too
limiting for some of the application I had to develop over the last 5
years. Your mileage my vary.

> Borland failed with trying to port the VCL with Kylix,

No, they failed to market Kylix correctly, thus lost interest too
quickly. To date there are still companies [though getting less] like
Scooter Software that use Kylix and CLX. The Kylix IDE was a bigger
problem than the actual CLX toolkit.

Either way, we are straying from the topic at hand.


> I can't think of any language features that would make this necessary.

I guess the only way to find out is to buy a copy of XE7 and try to
compile FMX with FPC.



Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Michael Schnell]

On 02/25/2015 12:26 PM, Michael Schnell wrote:

I once found the source code of the original library...

"GLScene".

I do have some "GL" files fetched at that time. I did not ever open the 
ZIPs


-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Michael Schnell]

On 02/25/2015 12:26 PM, Michael Schnell wrote:

I once found the source code of the original library...

"DXScene".

I do have some "DX" files fetched at that time. I did not ever open the 
ZIPs :-(


-Michael


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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Michael Schnell]

On 02/25/2015 11:49 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
I honestly don't know what LCL-CustomDrawn is targeting. It also isn't 
in a usable state at the moment and still needs a lot of development 
before it is usable. 
AFAIK, CustomDrawn is trying to restrict the necessary functionality of 
an external WidgetSet to as little objects as possible and build up all 
GUI elements from this in Delphi code.

Do you see a real advantage with FireMonkey ?

Well, considering that VCL is _very_ Windows specific,
IMHO the LCL proves that close to all VCL features can be done as good 
(or even better) with other Widgets sets than just "Windows".

Delphi needed
something different to target other platforms. FireMonkey toolkit was
their ticket.  CLX could also have been their answer (as Qt runs on
pretty much every platform out there), but Borland/CodeGear/EMB long
forgot about CLX.
Borland failed with trying to port the VCL with Kylix, but IMHO Lazarus 
does an excellent job with the same task.



In fact, AFAIK, the FM library once was a freely available library that
should be usable with fpc.

I'm pretty sure FMX now uses many Delphi specific features that wouldn't
make it compilable with FPC any more.
I can't think of any language features that would make this necessary. 
Did they update the X86 compiler greatly making it decently incompatible 
to fpc ?



I also don't know (but would like
to find out) if Delphi includes full source code of FMX - in case
somebody wanted to try and do a personal port to FPC.
I once found the source code of the original library (before bought by 
Embarcadero). I'm not sure if I saved it. But of course they tried to 
remove it from the Internet after they changed the license.


-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[patspiper]

On 25/02/15 13:02, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

On 2015-02-25 10:46, Sven Barth wrote:

we don't
need FM and can instead improve the LCL to handle this better including
native look and feel.

Okay, so does that mean currently LCL can't target Android or iOS, but
the possibility could exist in the future?  The reason I say this is
because to date there is no LCL-iOS or LCL-Android widgetset to choose
as a target.

I haven't really tracked the progress of LCL over the last couple of
years. So I'm just trying to compare Delphi and Lazarus to see how they
compare for multi-platform and multi-device development. I'm trying to
see if Lazarus is a viable option for a future project, or am I better
off spending the small fortune and buy a copy of Delphi XE7 (or
AppMethod). Maybe alternatives like Xamarin is an option too, but I
would like to keep to the Object Pascal language if possible.
Check out LazAndroidModuleWizard. Quite promising for Android apps but 
not LCL compatible.


http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=21919.0
https://github.com/jmpessoa/lazandroidmodulewizard

Stephano

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 10:46, Sven Barth wrote:
> we don't
> need FM and can instead improve the LCL to handle this better including
> native look and feel.

Okay, so does that mean currently LCL can't target Android or iOS, but
the possibility could exist in the future?  The reason I say this is
because to date there is no LCL-iOS or LCL-Android widgetset to choose
as a target.

I haven't really tracked the progress of LCL over the last couple of
years. So I'm just trying to compare Delphi and Lazarus to see how they
compare for multi-platform and multi-device development. I'm trying to
see if Lazarus is a viable option for a future project, or am I better
off spending the small fortune and buy a copy of Delphi XE7 (or
AppMethod). Maybe alternatives like Xamarin is an option too, but I
would like to keep to the Object Pascal language if possible.

Regards,
  - Graeme -

-- 
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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 10:40, Michael Schnell wrote:
> On 02/25/2015 11:35 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>> Is the LCL-CustomDrawn widgetset maybe meant as the target for FMX 
>> compatibility?
> Do you think it _should_ ?

I honestly don't know what LCL-CustomDrawn is targeting. It also isn't
in a usable state at the moment and still needs a lot of development
before it is usable.


> Do you see a real advantage with FireMonkey ?

Well, considering that VCL is _very_ Windows specific, Delphi needed
something different to target other platforms. FireMonkey toolkit was
their ticket.  CLX could also have been their answer (as Qt runs on
pretty much every platform out there), but Borland/CodeGear/EMB long
forgot about CLX.

> In fact, AFAIK, the FM library once was a freely available library that 
> should be usable with fpc.

I'm pretty sure FMX now uses many Delphi specific features that wouldn't
make it compilable with FPC any more. I also don't know (but would like
to find out) if Delphi includes full source code of FMX - in case
somebody wanted to try and do a personal port to FPC.



Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Sven Barth]

Am 25.02.2015 11:35 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys" <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk>:
>
> On 2015-02-25 09:53, Michael Schnell wrote:
> > While (AFAIK, not having watched, yet) in Delphi XE this is only
> > possible with FireMonkey
>
> Correct, the Delphi video was just for the FireMonkey toolkit - hence my
> comment if LCL is only meant for desktop development (like VCL). I don't
> know what LCL is targeting these days... still only VCL compatibility,
> or slowly moving towards FMX compatibility.
>
> Is the LCL-CustomDrawn widgetset maybe meant as the target for FMX
> compatibility?

Delphi's VCL was not portable to anything else than Windows, which is why
Embarcadero added FireMonkey. The LCL however /is/ portable so we don't
need FM and can instead improve the LCL to handle this better including
native look and feel.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Michael Schnell]

On 02/25/2015 11:35 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
Is the LCL-CustomDrawn widgetset maybe meant as the target for FMX 
compatibility?

Do you think it _should_ ?

Do you see a real advantage with FireMonkey ? (I did not even do a 
"hallo world" with same.)


In fact, AFAIK, the FM library once was a freely available library that 
should be usable with fpc. So FM on fpc should be just around the 
corner, if anybody like it.


-Michael


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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 09:31, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> Of course you can use VFI to create custom views - for
> different platforms, devices, releases or whatever
> flavors.

But the difference between Delphi and Lazarus would be how you reference
those forms. In Delphi FMX (as far as I understand) you would simply
reference your form as SomeForm - regardless of the target device. FMX
would resolve that automatically to the correct device specific
implementation if one exists.

Whereas in Lazarus LCL's VFI you would have different units and
different form names for each target. So you would have to wrap all
those in IFDEF's. Is this correct?

> flexible), but the LCL will still use the native controls, so the
> "preview" is limited.

Understood.



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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-02-25 09:53, Michael Schnell wrote:
> While (AFAIK, not having watched, yet) in Delphi XE this is only 
> possible with FireMonkey

Correct, the Delphi video was just for the FireMonkey toolkit - hence my
comment if LCL is only meant for desktop development (like VCL). I don't
know what LCL is targeting these days... still only VCL compatibility,
or slowly moving towards FMX compatibility.

Is the LCL-CustomDrawn widgetset maybe meant as the target for FMX
compatibility?

Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Michael Schnell]

On 02/25/2015 08:05 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

I just found this very interesting video about Delphi XE7 (or AppMethod)
and how the form designer can design for multiple device targets. Very
clever usage of Visual Form Inheritance.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmA7KLlOR1U

How does Lazarus IDE (or LCL) handle this? Can you develop for multiple
targets with a single source code base? Or is this beyond the scope of
LCL (eg: LCL is only meant for desktop apps)?

While (AFAIK, not having watched, yet) in Delphi XE this is only 
possible with FireMonkey, and hence porting existing Desktop 
VCL-applications to other platforms is close to impossible, with Lazarus 
compiling for all supported platforms should be possible using the the 
LCL that is rather similar to the Delphi VCL.


So - disregarding technical details - Lazarus should be better regarding 
portability.


-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:05:20 +
Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I just found this very interesting video about Delphi XE7 (or AppMethod)
> and how the form designer can design for multiple device targets. Very
> clever usage of Visual Form Inheritance.
> 
>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmA7KLlOR1U
> 
> How does Lazarus IDE (or LCL) handle this? Can you develop for multiple
> targets with a single source code base? Or is this beyond the scope of
> LCL (eg: LCL is only meant for desktop apps)?

Of course you can use VFI to create custom views - for
different platforms, devices, releases or whatever
flavors.
XE7 took a common case - devices - and made that simpler by having only
one unit and load a second resource automatically.
Theoretically Lazarus could be extended to do the same (or more
flexible), but the LCL will still use the native controls, so the
"preview" is limited.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Marcos Almeida Azevedo]

I only use Lazarus for desktop apps.  But I haven't checked most features
it offers

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just found this very interesting video about Delphi XE7 (or AppMethod)
> and how the form designer can design for multiple device targets. Very
> clever usage of Visual Form Inheritance.
>
>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmA7KLlOR1U
>
> How does Lazarus IDE (or LCL) handle this? Can you develop for multiple
> targets with a single source code base? Or is this beyond the scope of
> LCL (eg: LCL is only meant for desktop apps)?
>
>
> Regards,
>   - Graeme -
>
> --
> fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
> http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/
>
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>



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Marcos | I love PHP, Linux, and Java

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[Lazarus] Multi-Device Designer

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

Hi,

I just found this very interesting video about Delphi XE7 (or AppMethod)
and how the form designer can design for multiple device targets. Very
clever usage of Visual Form Inheritance.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmA7KLlOR1U

How does Lazarus IDE (or LCL) handle this? Can you develop for multiple
targets with a single source code base? Or is this beyond the scope of
LCL (eg: LCL is only meant for desktop apps)?


Regards,
  - Graeme -

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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