Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
The problem here is that people disagree on what SHOULD run the website - some think current php used is fine to power the website. Some think it should be powered by perl. Some people feel it should be done in PEAR or phpnuke. Some feel it should be powered by websnap style lazarus website engine. Some people feel it could be done in PSP. If you had someone in charge to say listen Mr. we are paying you $400; If you want the $400 you build it the way we want based on our manager's instructions. But there are no structured rules or instructions, so no one will ever get it done - except the core folks when they have time. It's not as easy as just saying we need people - do the work now. You must discuss WHAT must be done and you must have some structure and management. Otherwise it's just an open can of worms with 50 guys battling (talking) about WHAT engine should be used for the site. It's not as simple as opening up lazarus and having some guy build the website. WHO, which guy? How many guys? Define some structure. Learn from the Pascal language: a structured language. Not an unstructured language with weak typing. I think that we all here agree on this: The one who builds it, decides. That's even almost always true for the development itself. If you build a new website which is better then the current one. And if you can view that one to us, I'm sure we will switch to that version. So, can I point to you to make clear 'which guy' is gonna make us a new website? Joost. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Is this enougth to buy Trolltech and make them switch to pascal? -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho You give good suggestions about what a foundation could do for each amount. And for Trolltech, i don't think they would leave C++ and its MOC metacompiler, but adding an Object Pascal language option maybe, like it happen with C#... - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Hi.
What they need is people. They (we?) don't need a foundation to make a
better website, but we need someone to make a better website. Obviously
the core developers don't care much about that. They have other
interests.
Your idea of, making some improvements to the community as an alternative
of a foundation, sounds good...
some programmer himself, to do the job? Just like Redhat does?
I thing I got misunderstood on this. First I didn't tought of a foundation
just as way of getting money, but of providing serveral resources
(not just money).
If you have a software-development company, and you need something in
Lazarus/FPC, you can just develop it yourself, instead of giving money.
Just if I have time...
By example, I have a message dialog component in Delphi,
that can be localizated, and it's better to use in code,
example:
Standard message function:
uses
Dialogs;
...
if (Application.MessageBox('Title', 'Message', [mbOk, mbCancel] = mrOK)
then
And my replacement
uses
sdvMsgBox;
...
if (MessageBox('Title', 'Message', [moOK, moCancel] = moOK)) then
And the message box appears in a desidered language. But need
some time in order to ported to Lazarus.
documentation.
Maybe.
time instead. That's far more usefull.
Personally, im working on that... ;-)
Since 2 years ago, I already have some projects that have to migrate from
Windoze to Linux, libraries, components and so on,
but at that time Lazarus was too inmature,
and I didn't time to help.
Luckily, Lazarus have get better, (thanks to the developers that supported).
Unless you have more then about 50.000 to spend, offcourse...
Wish I had ;-)
-
mramirez
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx]
_
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Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Hi. What they need is people. They (we?) don't need a foundation to make a better website, but we need someone to make a better website. Obviously the core developers don't care much about that. They have other interests. Your idea of, making some improvements to the community as an alternative of a foundation, sounds good... The problem here is that people disagree on what SHOULD run the website - some think current php used is fine to power the website. Some think it should be powered by perl. Some people feel it should be done in PEAR or phpnuke. Some feel it should be powered by websnap style lazarus website engine. Some people feel it could be done in PSP. If you had someone in charge to say listen Mr. we are paying you $400; If you want the $400 you build it the way we want based on our manager's instructions. But there are no structured rules or instructions, so no one will ever get it done - except the core folks when they have time. It's not as easy as just saying we need people - do the work now. You must discuss WHAT must be done and you must have some structure and management. Otherwise it's just an open can of worms with 50 guys battling (talking) about WHAT engine should be used for the site. It's not as simple as opening up lazarus and having some guy build the website. WHO, which guy? How many guys? Define some structure. Learn from the Pascal language: a structured language. Not an unstructured language with weak typing. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: 1000 Eur Create a Bountie ( http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Bounties ) to port Free Pascal to Palm OS Isn't PalmOS a dead platform? 1 Eur Create 10 important Bounties ( http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Bounties ). With these 10 we could cover the most important ideas we had about Summer of Code People coding for money don't do much for 1000 Eur :) 10 Eur All devels can go to the Bahamas. We can have a developers meeting on Hawaii perhaps? (With all expenses payed of course) And that has any benefit for FPC/Lazarus :)? 100 Eur Put on the Bank. A reasonably agressive application (like stock market) can easely earn 20% a Year. Acctually you can get much more, but this is a conservative view. Currently, yes. But that's not always the case. So in 1 Year you get: 200.000 And you can invest that amount each year forever. And what to do with that amount? Ummm Bahamas every year + 100 bounties every year =) Now I think we are making progress :^) 1000 Eur Is this enougth to buy Trolltech and make them switch to pascal? -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Create 10 important Bounties ( http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Bounties ). With these 10 we could cover the most important ideas we had about Summer of Code People coding for money don't do much for 1000 Eur :) May be not in Europe or USA but in South America (and specially in Argentina), 1000 Eur is enougth for a good full time Semi Senior Developer with at least 3 years of expertise. Horacio Jamilis _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
My 2 cents about the foundation-stuff. You don't need a foundation for a large opensource project. For example, Fedora doesn't have a foundation. But it does have a very large community. They are administered by the 'Project Board', and the different projects, like for example Fedora Extra's have their own steering committee's. (FESCO for extra's) The ppl in those committees and the Board are chosen by elections. And this all without any foundation. Also Fedora doesn't have any money. But what they do get is people. Redhat has lots of people who are working on Fedora. But they all get paid by Redhat. Further Redhat maintains the Fedora-buildfarm. (well, they provide the hardware and such. Plus the people to maintain it) (And there is the Chairman of the board, who is not elected but appointed by redhat and he has a veto-right) What does this have to do with fpc/lazarus? What they need is people. They (we?) don't need a foundation to make a better website, but we need someone to make a better website. Obviously the core developers don't care much about that. They have other interests. A foundation is only of uses if it raises enough money to hire people. But it's not likely that that's gonna happen soon. But what we can do, is doing linke Michael Hess does: he provides the webservers for Lazarus. And the company of Michael van Canneyt provides bandwith for fpc, just like Coraxnetworks and Tony Maro with the mirrors... Just like Redhat does with the buildsystem for Fedora... And for JohnF and Marco Ramirez. They would like to see that they pay some money, so that the developers can solve their problems... Marco says that he doesn't have time for that. So why doesn't he hire some programmer himself, to do the job? Just like Redhat does? If you have a software-development company, and you need something in Lazarus/FPC, you can just develop it yourself, instead of giving money. If you're using Delphi, you can't do it yourself, so you'll have to give money to Borland. But in the Lazarus case you have everything in your own hands. And if you don't have enough programmers, provide a secretary - to scan the bug-reports. Or someone who can translate things or write some documentation. That way someone else can do the other work... So if you want to donate some money to fpc/lazarus, donate some time instead. That's far more usefull. Unless you have more then about 50.000 to spend, offcourse... Joost. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Saturday 29 April 2006 14:13, Joost van der Sluis wrote: And for JohnF and Marco Ramirez. They would like to see that they pay some money, so that the developers can solve their problems I will assume that I'm Johnf. I don't want to pay money to solve MY problems. Currently, I'm doing fine with my development. I would like to see someone to move Lazarus forward. Recent events made be concerned that lazarus and mostly FPC may not last. A project that I was involved with just stopped when a major player died. I started thinking about FPC and what it would take to break FPC and realized not much would be required. So I changed my mind. If there were some postition that was paid I think we could always get someone to aid FPC and Lazarus. At least that is where I'm coming from. John _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Florian Klaempfl wrote: Don't forget that a good programmer/administrator in Europe or the U.S. costs between 50k and 150k Eur per year. Exactly, and I estimate that the donations we get will only be a fraction of this, so using donations to sponsor developers is only a dream. *Poof* :-). It might be enough for a gathering of some kind (but I even doubt this), although we could as well simply ask entrance fee in that case :-). Micha _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lazarus Foundation (pros) advantages and disadvantages I think that the 2 main reasons that support a Lazarus/FPC foundation are: - Organization - Donations Before I continue, let me say that I thanks all the guys in this community for their work, and any comment I make, it will be as a positive critic. I want to get Lazarus To get better, no to start a flame war... Organization. By organization, I mean administration, leadership, control, resources. I see a foundation as a natural evolution of a open source community, examples: -Open Office -Apache -GNU I think they have a way bigger userbase that we have. There's a lot of things where a legally established foundation can do, that a community may lack. For example, I surprised that Lazarus forums aren't updated as it happens to Borland's groups (Delphi and others) or M$ groups... Lazarus forums not updated ? what do you mean by that ? There are 10-20 messages everyday there. I find the mailing list/wiki very useful for bugs and improvements, but not good for common questions, (like what do I need to install it in certain Linux distribution), which I think it's better in a forum. Don't think so. On a forum those questions appear over and over again. ppl don't read/search the forum. So it is good to have a wiki to point someone at. In fact, this topic, I think it should be in a working forum ;-) I prefer mailinglist I understand also that making a foundation work is not a trivial task, and it needs several things, in order to make it work. Starting a foundation isn't a big deal overhere. It only cost you a few eur a year. But I don't see the need for it. Many guys think that the FreePascal project doesn't need a foundation, but the complexity of Lazarus does. Donations. Money is required for several things. Money serves a wildcard for several things like time (hiring developers time), material resources (like cpus, servers, merchandising/publicity) THis is already answered in another thread. As an example, a few months ago, Open Office development (version 2), a wide used open source software, has halted by lack of developers, until Google make a donation. Personally, my participation in Lazarus development, is very poor, due to my work and lack of time. The latter is more important. Time, or the will to make time. I guess that some of the guys around here have the same problem, and a set of full-time core developers could help a lot. I won't quit my job for it now. Other. Lazarus was a must for me (not in US), since a few years ago, due to the high price of Delphi, lack of localization, and dificulty to port to other OSs like Linux, BSD or mobile, not just for cheaper OSs or money, but for technical reasons. Just check how many post are from people from outside US. A foundation can help on this and more matters. what will a foundation offer for those outside the us ? Marc _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Marc Weustink ha scritto: [...] what will a foundation offer for those outside the us ? Marc I'm afraid that sometimes we get confused by what others do. We see what they do, but we fail to grasp why. Others set up a foundation, why don't we do the same? But one should first of all understand why others do it, and try to check if we're in the same condition. Following the threads in this ml one realizes that the number of people actually writing code is very small. Most of the partecipants are beta testers which provide very useful feedback, but which don't write lazarus code. The structure appears to be simple and efficient. Patches and contributions are filtered by Mathias, and if he's convinced the patch is applied, if he's not, the patch doesn't get in the main trunk. Some days he has one or two topics to deal with, many times he's got none. This is the quickest and most effective way to carry on a project, until the number of partecipants grows beyond the capabilities of a single man. At this point a structured organization is required. Someone devoting his time not to develop software but to coordinate others doing it. But one must understand that this isn't a better way in itself . It's just the lesser evil when it's impossible to do otherwise. Someone coordinating other people is more prone to take wrong decisions, for lack of first hand knowledge, than someone directly doing the work. If and when the group which actually writes the code will feel that tey're unable to cope with the bulk of work, when some of them will discover that they spend most of their time trying to coordinate instead of developing, they may discover that they're no more having fun, and maybe they'll feel compelled to set up an organization, which may require money, and possibly a foundation to gather it. But it's up to them. The only way to push them in that direction is to overload them with contributions, tons of good code to be included into lazarus. Words won't convince them (rightly IMHO). Giuliano _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Hi. I think they have a way bigger userbase that we have. Sure, they do :-) But, just because pascal-related communities are smaller than c#, c++ or Java ones, doesn't mean we have to switch to those languages, and forget about pascal... There are 10-20 messages everyday there. Then, I have to take another look... I prefer mailinglist I think forums, wiki or mailinglist, depends on the subject. Lazarus (as an IDE) topics are better in the mailing list. Starting a foundation isn't a big deal overhere. It only cost you a few eur a year. But I don't see the need for it. Maybe. The latter is more important. Time, or the will to make time. Or the boss/employer/company allows to do so... I have check the roadmap, since a year ago, and there a few things I would like to contribute, but same problem with time like other developers. Im not a troll or guy just trying to make trouble, but have the same problems of time that many of you around, here. I was thinking that a foundation with a core of developers, among other things, may help improve the project, but it seems I WAS WRONG... what will a foundation offer for those outside the us ? The foundation, not directy, but by providing more resources to the project, other poeple's work will improve, like documentation, unicode support and so on. Just my 2 cents... - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On 4/27/06, Florian Klaempfl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, to get this discussion to something useful and have some hard numbers: What should do a lazarus foundation having 100 Eur Play on the lotery and see if we can get more money. 1000 Eur Create a Bountie ( http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Bounties ) to port Free Pascal to Palm OS 1 Eur Create 10 important Bounties ( http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Bounties ). With these 10 we could cover the most important ideas we had about Summer of Code 10 Eur All devels can go to the Bahamas. We can have a developers meeting on Hawaii perhaps? (With all expenses payed of course) 100 Eur Put on the Bank. A reasonably agressive application (like stock market) can easely earn 20% a Year. Acctually you can get much more, but this is a conservative view. So in 1 Year you get: 200.000 And you can invest that amount each year forever. And what to do with that amount? Ummm Bahamas every year + 100 bounties every year =) Now I think we are making progress :^) 1000 Eur Is this enougth to buy Trolltech and make them switch to pascal? -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Hi. Lazarus or FPC do not have administration, leadership, control, resources, etc. Wait, this isn't a flame war Lazarus does administration and the other stuff, but I think there's a point where all this stuff may get slower, if you get the idea. Metaphor: The same way there's a limit to a person running speed, and a car can surpass that limit, the same way, a foundation may surpass a community... incorporate or create a legal organization it will get totally complex. I understand and Im agree with that, but still, if the foundation is well strutured, may get more benefits over the difficulties of the complexity. Of course, a foudation may be difficult thing to start. does that mean? Maybe I should rephrase that, forums are updated, the website is fine, but many guys prefer to reply or ask into the mailing list. The relation to the foundation, is that maybe a foundation may coordinate the developers to promote the website, the forums, the wiki page, and the mailing list in way that developers may use each tool better. So why don't you have it in the forums? Because I have seen that previous questions of mine, and question from other guys, didn't get a reply... This is not the webmasters fault, this is a thing in the Lazarus community. What makes your think Lazarus is any more complex then the FPC compiler that I don't mean that crafting a compiler is a trivial task !!! Actually, I have make some compiler stuff, I know its DIFFICULT, but since Lazarus uses the compiler plus other stuff, well, it adds complexity to that... it. Im not taking of selling Lazarus, Im talking about providing more resources to the project (time, developers, tools). Im interested in Lazarus both as a hobbie and work. In my case, I use programming tools, because Im a programmer, I pay the rent from that ;-) But most of the projects you mention don't even have full time developers. They do. Maybe just 2 or 3, that help coordinate the work of volunteers... (Confirmed in the websites, but dont have the info right now) How? You make this global statement but don't give specifics. How exactly does it help? Sorry, Im just trying to start the idea, I dont have all the info by myself right now ;-) That's why also post this on the mailing list... Thanks for your critics. I hope my answers help the project, even if there's not a foundation ;-) - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros De: Flávio Etrusco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mie, 26 de Abril de 2006, 4:35 pm Para: lazarus@miraclec.com -- Hi I guess the discussion is more about letting someone who the main developers trust to work on such thing, not about programmers/hackers doing annoying-irritative-pita burocratic work ;-) Its, more like that, check my last answer to Michael, one of Lazarus founders. Neither do I. Again, my mistake, forums are updated, but many developers doesn't participate on them :-( I guess he's not a CS bachelor student ;-) (Nor is he very interested in compilers...) Ops, Im thinking about thinking well my comments before writing them. Actually my degree thesis WAS ABOUT COMPILERS, I have made some traslators and interpreters (XML, HTML, C++), I know how dificult job is it. Lazarus (a developer framewok, GUI) adds more complexity to the existing complexity of the FPC compiler. Some guys (3, I think) reply to me that FPC project DIDN'T NEED a foundation, so I reply that a foundation may help Lazarus. The guy at miraclec has done a great job on keeping the project alive, (thanks Michael), but, projects like Lazarus are difficult to maintain, they not a trivial task, neither a compiler does... Metaphor: Fathers sometimes worry about their children independence, mua get them into trouble, I think Michael does cares about Lazarus ;-) I can't reply to every message, but yours and Michael was a MUST. Thanks - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [Fwd: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros De: Flávio Etrusco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mie, 26 de Abril de 2006, 4:35 pm Para: lazarus@miraclec.com -- Hi I guess the discussion is more about letting someone who the main developers trust to work on such thing, not about programmers/hackers doing annoying-irritative-pita burocratic work ;-) Its, more like that, check my last answer to Michael, one of Lazarus founders. Neither do I. Again, my mistake, forums are updated, but many developers doesn't participate on them :-( What do you mean by 'developers'? If you are talking about Lazarus developers, then I think this is not accurate either: Take a look at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2file=memberlist and sort by number of post descending. Number 1 and 2 are Lazarus developers. So are number 9 and 10. Only Mattias isn't that active on the forums, but IMO he more than makes up with his activity in the Mailing list. Vincent Vincent. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [Fwd: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros]
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:10:40 -0500 (CDT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, my mistake, forums are updated, but many developers doesn't participate on them :-( This means we need more people who do not necessarily need to write code (patches) or documentation, but do have knowledge about all kinds of lazarus features (by using it themselves regularly for example), and can help users with their problems. Micha _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [Fwd: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros]
This means we need more people who do not necessarily need to write code (patches) or documentation, but do have knowledge about all kinds of lazarus features (by using it themselves regularly for example), and can help users with their problems. Micha Hi. By developers, I don't mean developers that update Lazarus IDE, or Lazarus Control Library (LCL), but, developers that use Lazarus for their own programs. I think wiki and mailing list should be aimed more to Lazarus and LCL developers (that modify Lazarus), altought Lazarus users (developers that use Lazarus) are welcome. I also think that forums should be aimed to Lazarus users (developers that use Lazarus) to help themselves, and again, Lazarus and LCL developers (that modify Lazarus) are welcome. Borland's Delphi documentation mentions Delphi developers, which are VCL users (use controls but doesn't develop them) and VCL developers (develop controls), as well. Just my 2 cents. - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [Fwd: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This means we need more people who do not necessarily need to write code (patches) or documentation, but do have knowledge about all kinds of lazarus features (by using it themselves regularly for example), and can help users with their problems. Micha Hi. By developers, I don't mean developers that update Lazarus IDE, or Lazarus Control Library (LCL), but, developers that use Lazarus for their own programs. OK. I think wiki and mailing list should be aimed more to Lazarus and LCL developers (that modify Lazarus), altought Lazarus users (developers that use Lazarus) are welcome. I also think that forums should be aimed to Lazarus users (developers that use Lazarus) to help themselves, and again, Lazarus and LCL developers (that modify Lazarus) are welcome. Sure, such people use the forums too. But you seem to think creating a Lazarus Foundation would help to make the forums more used by Lazarus users. Can you explain that relation? Borland's Delphi documentation mentions Delphi developers, which are VCL users (use controls but doesn't develop them) and VCL developers (develop controls), as well. IMHO it is strange to call the Delphi developers, they are developers that use Lazarus. Vincent. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Ok, to get this discussion to something useful and have some hard numbers: What should do a lazarus foundation having 100 Eur 1000 Eur 1 Eur 10 Eur 100 Eur 1000 Eur ? Don't forget that a good programmer/administrator in Europe or the U.S. costs between 50k and 150k Eur per year. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Florian Klaempfl a écrit : Ok, to get this discussion to something useful and have some hard numbers: What should do a lazarus foundation having 100 Eur 1000 Eur 1 Eur 10 Eur 100 Eur 1000 Eur ? To get ready to be sued by a new kind of racketters called software patent holders? :-) They don't sue independant developpers (at least, not much) simply because they would have to pay more to sue them than they can stole them. But a foundation with big money might be an interesting target. mm _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
[lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
Lazarus Foundation (pros) advantages and disadvantages I think that the 2 main reasons that support a Lazarus/FPC foundation are: - Organization - Donations Before I continue, let me say that I thanks all the guys in this community for their work, and any comment I make, it will be as a positive critic. I want to get Lazarus To get better, no to start a flame war... Organization. By organization, I mean administration, leadership, control, resources. I see a foundation as a natural evolution of a open source community, examples: -Open Office -Apache -GNU There's a lot of things where a legally established foundation can do, that a community may lack. For example, I surprised that Lazarus forums aren't updated as it happens to Borland's groups (Delphi and others) or M$ groups... I find the mailing list/wiki very useful for bugs and improvements, but not good for common questions, (like what do I need to install it in certain Linux distribution), which I think it's better in a forum. In fact, this topic, I think it should be in a working forum ;-) I understand also that making a foundation work is not a trivial task, and it needs several things, in order to make it work. Many guys think that the FreePascal project doesn't need a foundation, but the complexity of Lazarus does. Donations. Money is required for several things. Money serves a wildcard for several things like time (hiring developers time), material resources (like cpus, servers, merchandising/publicity) As an example, a few months ago, Open Office development (version 2), a wide used open source software, has halted by lack of developers, until Google make a donation. Personally, my participation in Lazarus development, is very poor, due to my work and lack of time. I guess that some of the guys around here have the same problem, and a set of full-time core developers could help a lot. Other. Lazarus was a must for me (not in US), since a few years ago, due to the high price of Delphi, lack of localization, and dificulty to port to other OSs like Linux, BSD or mobile, not just for cheaper OSs or money, but for technical reasons. Just check how many post are from people from outside US. A foundation can help on this and more matters. Just my 2 cents... - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:43:07 -0500 (CDT), lazarus.mramirez wrote Lazarus Foundation (pros) advantages and disadvantages Organization. By organization, I mean administration, leadership, control, resources. I see a foundation as a natural evolution of a open source community, examples: Statements like this always seem to amaze me. Where did you get the idea that Lazarus or FPC do not have administration, leadership, control, resources, etc. There's a lot of things where a legally established foundation can do, that a community may lack. For me it would only add alot of complexity. The moment you need to incorporate or create a legal organization it will get totally complex. For example, I surprised that Lazarus forums aren't updated as it happens to Borland's groups (Delphi and others) or M$ groups... I'm not even sure what you mean by this. 'forums aren't updated'. What does that mean? I find the mailing list/wiki very useful for bugs and improvements, but not good for common questions, (like what do I need to install it in certain Linux distribution), which I think it's better in a forum. And most of those kind of things are in the forum. Aren't they In fact, this topic, I think it should be in a working forum ;-) So why don't you have it in the forums? I understand also that making a foundation work is not a trivial task, and it needs several things, in order to make it work. Many guys think that the FreePascal project doesn't need a foundation, but the complexity of Lazarus does. What makes your think Lazarus is any more complex then the FPC compiler that it sits on top of Donations. Money is required for several things. Money serves a wildcard for several things like time (hiring developers time), material resources (like cpus, servers, merchandising/publicity) This is thinking like it is a commercial product. It isn't. As was mentioned in another email it is something we do because we enjoy it and it is fun. Also fun to be part of it. If no one ever uses the product but us so be it. Merchandising/publicity isn't really important. If people use it great. If they don't, also great. As an example, a few months ago, Open Office development (version 2), a wide used open source software, has halted by lack of developers, until Google make a donation. This is from the OpenOffice site itself. We strongly prefer that people become contributors. In most cases, being a contributor will go much further than a monetary donation. They have the same problem Lazarus/FPC do. Developers who contribute their time and effort into improving the tools. I guess that some of the guys around here have the same problem, and a set of full-time core developers could help a lot. But most of the projects you mention don't even have full time developers. Lazarus was a must for me (not in US), since a few years ago, due to the high price of Delphi, lack of localization, and dificulty to port to other OSs like Linux, BSD or mobile, not just for cheaper OSs or money, but for technical reasons. Just check how many post are from people from outside US. A foundation can help on this and more matters. How? You make this global statement but don't give specifics. How exactly does it help? -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On 4/26/06, Michael A. Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But most of the projects you mention don't even have full time developers. Actually all the projects he mentioned have full time developers. -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On 4/26/06, Michael A. Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:43:07 -0500 (CDT), lazarus.mramirez wrote Lazarus Foundation (pros) advantages and disadvantages Organization. By organization, I mean administration, leadership, control, resources. I see a foundation as a natural evolution of a open source community, examples: Statements like this always seem to amaze me. Where did you get the idea that Lazarus or FPC do not have administration, leadership, control, resources, etc. I undertood him differently. Of course any project needs all of those things, so, with a foundation (if it gathers sufficient money) we can have professional people doing it and who like doing it (ideally ;-) There's a lot of things where a legally established foundation can do, that a community may lack. For me it would only add alot of complexity. The moment you need to incorporate or create a legal organization it will get totally complex. I guess the discussion is more about letting someone who the main developers trust to work on such thing, not about programmers/hackers doing annoying-irritative-pita burocratic work ;-) For example, I surprised that Lazarus forums aren't updated as it happens to Borland's groups (Delphi and others) or M$ groups... I'm not even sure what you mean by this. 'forums aren't updated'. What does that mean? Neither do I. I find the mailing list/wiki very useful for bugs and improvements, but not good for common questions, (like what do I need to install it in certain Linux distribution), which I think it's better in a forum. And most of those kind of things are in the forum. Aren't they In fact, this topic, I think it should be in a working forum ;-) So why don't you have it in the forums? Well, if he means something like freepascal and lazarus infrastructure needs some work I agree. I understand also that making a foundation work is not a trivial task, and it needs several things, in order to make it work. Many guys think that the FreePascal project doesn't need a foundation, but the complexity of Lazarus does. What makes your think Lazarus is any more complex then the FPC compiler that it sits on top of I guess he's not a CS bachelor student ;-) (Nor is he very interested in compilers...) Donations. Money is required for several things. Money serves a wildcard for several things like time (hiring developers time), material resources (like cpus, servers, merchandising/publicity) This is thinking like it is a commercial product. It isn't. As was mentioned in another email it is something we do because we enjoy it and it is fun. Also fun to be part of it. If no one ever uses the product but us so be it. There are some things that are nice to have that non-commercial product don't have simply because of the lack of money. Merchandising/publicity isn't really important. If people use it great. If they don't, also great. Completely agreed. World would be so much a better place if it was not for merchandise ;-) Lazarus was a must for me (not in US), since a few years ago, due to the high price of Delphi, lack of localization, and dificulty to port to other OSs like Linux, BSD or mobile, not just for cheaper OSs or money, but for technical reasons. Just check how many post are from people from outside US. A foundation can help on this and more matters. How? You make this global statement but don't give specifics. How exactly does it help? I hope some of my points help answering this :-) Cheers, Flávio _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Wednesday 26 April 2006 13:48, Michael A. Hess wrote: By organization, I mean administration, leadership, control, resources. I see a foundation as a natural evolution of a open source community, examples: Statements like this always seem to amaze me. Where did you get the idea that Lazarus or FPC do not have administration, leadership, control, resources, etc. What/who are the administrators, the controllers, and what resources belong to FPC, Lazarus? I ask because I don't know. I have not seen anything written about the subject. This is a real question. John _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, johnf wrote: On Wednesday 26 April 2006 13:48, Michael A. Hess wrote: By organization, I mean administration, leadership, control, resources. I see a foundation as a natural evolution of a open source community, examples: Statements like this always seem to amaze me. Where did you get the idea that Lazarus or FPC do not have administration, leadership, control, resources, etc. What/who are the administrators For Lazarus it would be the core developers you are most likely familiar with. the controllers Controllers Controllers of what? and what resources belong to FPC, Lazarus? What resources? What possible resource could their be? I have not seen anything written about the subject. This is a real question. Why? I guess I don't understand the concern or interest. -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Wednesday 26 April 2006 14:24, Michael A. Hess wrote: Why? I guess I don't understand the concern or interest. I got the impression that you had information I did not. That is the interest. I doubt if you asked any of the founders they would accept the label of administrators. John _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, johnf wrote: On Wednesday 26 April 2006 14:24, Michael A. Hess wrote: Why? I guess I don't understand the concern or interest. I got the impression that you had information I did not. That is the interest. I doubt if you asked any of the founders they would accept the label of administrators. -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus Foundation pros
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, johnf wrote: On Wednesday 26 April 2006 14:24, Michael A. Hess wrote: Why? I guess I don't understand the concern or interest. I got the impression that you had information I did not. Well if I don't, I'm not sure who else would. I guess I am just not understanding what you are after or what you want to see written. That is the interest. I doubt if you asked any of the founders they would accept the label of administrators. Uhhh. I am a founder. At this point I am the only one of the original left, as far as Lazarus goes. -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
