Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
On 4/3/07, Shawn Willden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that's an excellent idea, and would probably be very well-received by
those who are interested in NPOV and clear exposition of the known facts.
Those whose agenda is to confuse wouldn't like it, but they'd have a hard
time arguing against it.
Shawn.
This would be a great use for the LDSOSS wiki - specify topics on
wikipedia that need to be worked on, and who is watching them and
volunteering to work on them. As new topics are discovered we can add
them to the LDSOSS wiki.
Again, I want to specify (since this is archived), we still need to
remain objective. It's important that *all* references are specified,
not just one side of the story. I really like the way fairwiki does
it - while still a little biased towards our faith, they state the
issues argued against us, and what sources those issues are based on,
and then the sources stating otherwise or supporting the Church's
opinion (or facts). IMO, wikipedia should be just as informative on
both sides of the fence as fairwiki, if not more.
Jesse
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#!/usr/bin/perl
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Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
You also may not be aware there is a robust and active Wikiproject
Latter Day Saint Movement that has many LDS members and watches over
the LDS area of Wikipedia and can always use more help.
It's here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:LDS
Tom
On 4/3/07, Jesse Stay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 4/3/07, Shawn Willden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that's an excellent idea, and would probably be very well-received by
those who are interested in NPOV and clear exposition of the known facts.
Those whose agenda is to confuse wouldn't like it, but they'd have a hard
time arguing against it.
Shawn.
This would be a great use for the LDSOSS wiki - specify topics on
wikipedia that need to be worked on, and who is watching them and
volunteering to work on them. As new topics are discovered we can add
them to the LDSOSS wiki.
Again, I want to specify (since this is archived), we still need to
remain objective. It's important that *all* references are specified,
not just one side of the story. I really like the way fairwiki does
it - while still a little biased towards our faith, they state the
issues argued against us, and what sources those issues are based on,
and then the sources stating otherwise or supporting the Church's
opinion (or facts). IMO, wikipedia should be just as informative on
both sides of the fence as fairwiki, if not more.
Jesse
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
$^=q;@!~|{krwyn{u$$Sn||n|}j=$$Yn{uQjltn{ 0gFzD gD, 00Fz,
0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0 L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~ @=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
rw} ;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~@=\n\r,-~$:-u/
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Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
On 4/1/07, Jesse Stay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I raised this question on the mormonapologetics.org forum recently, but it seems no one has a good answer on how to fix it. I figure with this list having so many at church headquarters, and other smart people that have used wikipedia way more than I have, there might be some good ideas brought about here. /snip I've felt the same way recently about Digg (although not specificly targetted at Mormons, just those who believe in God in some way). Every other day it seems there is an article about how Christianity is disproven by science. I definitely think the last days are upon us, when good will be called evil and evil good. I think the Church leadership would look upon this as any anti-Mormon literature, there is just too much to try and respond to each one, plus responding to any of it, validates it in a small way to those who create it. The best solution as I have seen, is be a good example. You may not think it will do any good, but it does far more good than we can ever know. slide ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
First of all, I think that you misrepresent the issue. This is not about the
Wikipedia itself taking an anti-mormon slant. It is about an imbalance in
contribution levels by those who have negative verses positive feelings
about the Church.
I think it is reasonable for any of us who stumble across incorrect articles
to correct them, and if we are strongly interested to subscribe to future
changes to keep an eye on them. And if there are enough interested parties,
there might be value gained from some internal organization. However I don't
feel that it would be appropriate for the Church to involve itself in
something like this.
Charles
On 4/2/07, Jesse Stay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I raised this question on the mormonapologetics.org forum recently,
but it seems no one has a good answer on how to fix it. I figure with
this list having so many at church headquarters, and other smart
people that have used wikipedia way more than I have, there might be
some good ideas brought about here.
My issue is it seems wikipedia is taking an anti-mormon slant lately.
Some of the critical items that this Church is based on have now been
seized by anti-Mormons to give an anti-Mormon slant to those topics.
The main example I give is the topic First Vision. Wikipedia seems
to mention account after account of the First Vision, almost to prove
the 1838 account in our Pearl of Great Price is wrong, without any
backing evidence to the contrary (look at fairwiki.org - there is
plenty of backed evidence from actual sources to the contrary).
One other example is the topic Arianism. Mormons are listed as
supporters of Arius on wikipedia. If you think we actually are, I
highly suggest you research what Arius actually taught, as I really
don't think we want ourselves in that category. Were he to preach
today I'm pretty sure we too would see him as a heretic as the early
Christians did. I tried to remove us myself from there, even
including strong evidences and references as to why we shouldn't be
included, but it promptly got put back in, with no good reference as
to why we're included.
So, my question is - does anyone have any good ideas how we as a
community can fight back and get the *full* truth out there? Is it
worth our time? Is this something the Church needs to attack from a
higher level? Are they aware of it?
If this is one of those items that we should just ignore, I'm fine
with it, but I figure this group would be as good as any to be put to
use in fighting such tactics. What are all of your thoughts?
Jesse
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
$^=q;@!~|{krwyn{u$$Sn||n|}j=$$Yn{uQjltn{ 0gFzD gD, 00Fz,
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RE: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
Charles is correct. I've recently read 2 statistics. 1) that Wikipedia is more accurate than the commercial counterparts, and 2) the inaccuracies are quite a bit more blatant. The main criticism of Wikipedia is that it is now being used for political purposes. The candidates/groups use it to write good things about themselves and those in opposition use it to trash the candidates. From what you say, the same thing is happening to the page about the church. Wikipedia is setup as an altruistic, everyone contribute a piece of the puzzle, collection of knowledge. The fact that it may be abused was not given significant concern when creating the paradigm. It's the dark side of human nature. What to do about it? I understand that Wikipedia is looking at using some sort of attribution (tracking) mechanism to eliminate anonymity. I guess that's why the Church maintains a privately controlled and copyrighted website. ;-) Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Fry Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:04 AM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon? First of all, I think that you misrepresent the issue. This is not about the Wikipedia itself taking an anti-mormon slant. It is about an imbalance in contribution levels by those who have negative verses positive feelings about the Church. I think it is reasonable for any of us who stumble across incorrect articles to correct them, and if we are strongly interested to subscribe to future changes to keep an eye on them. And if there are enough interested parties, there might be value gained from some internal organization. However I don't feel that it would be appropriate for the Church to involve itself in something like this. Charles ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
I have a lot of Wikipedia experience, particularly in the LDS area, and I have system administrator privileges there. I know at least one other participant on this list is an experienced Wikipedian. The Wikipedia community stalwarts are fiercely committed to a non-negotiable policy of non-bias. The non-bias policy states that all significant points of view must be represented appropriately and that when any point of view is represented, it must be done with a sympathetic tone. The best way to improve Wikipedia is to present all information of interest with source citations as though you were explaining to your teenage kid all the diversity of opinion and information in the world regarding the First Vision. For the First Vision article, it would be appropriate to include a statement that in the LDS Church the 1838 account of the vision is canonical. Tom ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
It appears that since I've posted this on this and a few forums, based
on the history, it's been changed several times today. The last time
it was changed before that was March 23. I think it's important we
keep watch of these Mormon-related articles, and as missionary work,
ensure they are distributing correct information. So, the current
version may be more accurate now than it was before. After work today
I'll go through and see if I can add as well if anything is still
needed. I suggest everyone here watch these pages as well and be sure
inaccurate or missing doctrine isn't added (or taken away). I think
for such a broad site as wikipedia, that is supposed to be unbiased,
it is our duty to be sure the entire truth is being made manifest.
Jesse
On 4/2/07, John M. Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jesse,
As I read through the pages I felt that the page was very fair and pretty
academically rigorous maintaining a civil tone (definetly not the tones of
the ANTI-Groups). I've read much of our own scholars analysis of the First
Vision accounts and they seem to follow the same lines, seems to me like
this could be right out of Richard Bushman writings if he did an analysis of
the 1st Vision.
-John
- Original Message
From: Jesse Stay [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LDS Open Source Software ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org
Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2007 11:46:52 PM
Subject: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
I raised this question on the mormonapologetics.org forum recently,
but it seems no one has a good answer on how to fix it. I figure with
this list having so many at church headquarters, and other smart
people that have used wikipedia way more than I have, there might be
some good ideas brought about here.
My issue is it seems wikipedia is taking an anti-mormon slant lately.
Some of the critical items that this Church is based on have now been
seized by anti-Mormons to give an anti-Mormon slant to those topics.
The main example I give is the topic First Vision. Wikipedia seems
to mention account after account of the First Vision, almost to prove
the 1838 account in our Pearl of Great Price is wrong, without any
backing evidence to the contrary (look at fairwiki.org - there is
plenty of backed evidence from actual sources to the contrary).
One other example is the topic Arianism. Mormons are listed as
supporters of Arius on wikipedia. If you think we actually are, I
highly suggest you research what Arius actually taught, as I really
don't think we want ourselves in that category. Were he to preach
today I'm pretty sure we too would see him as a heretic as the early
Christians did. I tried to remove us myself from there, even
including strong evidences and references as to why we shouldn't be
included, but it promptly got put back in, with no good reference as
to why we're included.
So, my question is - does anyone have any good ideas how we as a
community can fight back and get the *full* truth out there? Is it
worth our time? Is this something the Church needs to attack from a
higher level? Are they aware of it?
If this is one of those items that we should just ignore, I'm fine
with it, but I figure this group would be as good as any to be put to
use in fighting such tactics. What are all of your thoughts?
Jesse
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Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
Jesse Stay wrote: My issue is it seems wikipedia is taking an anti-mormon slant lately. Some of the critical items that this Church is based on have now been seized by anti-Mormons to give an anti-Mormon slant to those topics. The main example I give is the topic First Vision. Wikipedia seems to mention account after account of the First Vision, almost to prove the 1838 account in our Pearl of Great Price is wrong, without any backing evidence to the contrary (look at fairwiki.org - there is plenty of backed evidence from actual sources to the contrary). I see an interesting tactic being employed in the First Vision article: it uniformly presents all opinions available, giving the reader the responsibility to evaluate the truthfulness of each opinion. So the reader simply comes away confused. It is an effective distraction. In reality, the opinions should not be weighted equally. Second-hand information should be considered far less reliable than words directly from the prophet, particularly the words he committed to scripture. Even Oliver Cowdery and Joseph's mother are only secondary sources. I wonder how those involved in that article would feel about splitting the article into primary vs. secondary information. So, my question is - does anyone have any good ideas how we as a community can fight back and get the *full* truth out there? Is it worth our time? Is this something the Church needs to attack from a higher level? Are they aware of it? The general authorities can't do it, nor is it worth their time. Maintaining Wikipedia is ineffective missionary work. However, fighting these kinds of battles is useful for sharpening personal reasoning skills, as long as it's civil. Shane ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
The general authorities can't do it, nor is it worth their time. One should probably not confuse the concepts of general authority and expect in church history. They aren't the same thing. I would guess that many GA's have not read all the disparate accounts of the first vision. It doesn't take a GA to do faithful and accurate history. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
[Ldsoss] wikipedia becoming anti-mormon?
I raised this question on the mormonapologetics.org forum recently,
but it seems no one has a good answer on how to fix it. I figure with
this list having so many at church headquarters, and other smart
people that have used wikipedia way more than I have, there might be
some good ideas brought about here.
My issue is it seems wikipedia is taking an anti-mormon slant lately.
Some of the critical items that this Church is based on have now been
seized by anti-Mormons to give an anti-Mormon slant to those topics.
The main example I give is the topic First Vision. Wikipedia seems
to mention account after account of the First Vision, almost to prove
the 1838 account in our Pearl of Great Price is wrong, without any
backing evidence to the contrary (look at fairwiki.org - there is
plenty of backed evidence from actual sources to the contrary).
One other example is the topic Arianism. Mormons are listed as
supporters of Arius on wikipedia. If you think we actually are, I
highly suggest you research what Arius actually taught, as I really
don't think we want ourselves in that category. Were he to preach
today I'm pretty sure we too would see him as a heretic as the early
Christians did. I tried to remove us myself from there, even
including strong evidences and references as to why we shouldn't be
included, but it promptly got put back in, with no good reference as
to why we're included.
So, my question is - does anyone have any good ideas how we as a
community can fight back and get the *full* truth out there? Is it
worth our time? Is this something the Church needs to attack from a
higher level? Are they aware of it?
If this is one of those items that we should just ignore, I'm fine
with it, but I figure this group would be as good as any to be put to
use in fighting such tactics. What are all of your thoughts?
Jesse
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
$^=q;@!~|{krwyn{u$$Sn||n|}j=$$Yn{uQjltn{ 0gFzD gD, 00Fz,
0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0 L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~ @=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
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