Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
l.s. For a heritage wiki that I helped set-up a few years ago (www.culturalheritageconnections.org) a combination of structured data and “normal” unstructured information was used. This set-up deploys semantic extensions to mediawiki where the structured data is captured in semantic properties and edited by means of semantic forms that ensure that certain information is automatically assigned to the semantic properties. Most if not all structured data is shown on the pages in so-called info boxes (like in wilipedia), and the information can be searched by properties, by category (really also a property) and also semantic query forms. An initial set of such pages can be generated from data contained in an SQL database. In short: a wiki that combines structured data with more or less unstructured information is very well possible and the existing dataset can be used as a start where all structured data is converted into semantic properties. Regards, -- Paul Oranje > Op 14 sep. 2016, om 00:57 heeft Jo-Philipp Wich het volgende > geschreven: > > Hi Tarek, > > Thomas Endt and others invested a lot of time to implement a structured > table of hardware in the OpenWrt wiki, which means that a lot of detail > information is accessible in a SQLite3 database file which should make > it easy to generate hardware documentation pages with a little script > and a few self-join queries. > > I also think that such a model would be a viable option for the future: > have a structured data entry dialog in the wiki which fills a database, > have all the surrounding wiki capabilities for free text information and > use the resulting database backend data to provide other, non-wiki > services like a vendor/model search to to download link redirection. > > > Imho a well maintained hardware database is a very important topic for > LEDE, OpenWrt and other associated projects but we need to find a sane > middle ground that does not upset too many potential contributors but > still yields a reasonable data quality... > > On a related note I wonder if anyone ever thought about joining forces > with WikiDevi? It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do but I > recall that the site operators are rather hard to contact. > > > Just my two cents :) > > Regards, > Jo > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/07/2016 11:43 AM, Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: If anyone have some better ideas for documenting device specific informations pls write it here. Also some feature ideas or potential problems will be very helpful. Maybe you should involve these people in the conversation: https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=57101 ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
Hey all, Since I was referenced in that thread on the OpenWrt forum, I'll give my two cents. The documentation initiative I tried to start seemed to fizzle out from the difficulty in getting the front page of the wiki changed to be more useful. When changes didn't seem possible (and it wasn't clear how to make them happen), folks kind of lost commitment. I will try to contact the folks I know though. I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation managed by experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, have plenty of areas to contribute but I don't see this area as one of them. Thanks, Eric On 09/07/2016 06:24 PM, J Mo wrote: > > > On 09/07/2016 11:43 AM, Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: >> If anyone have some better ideas for documenting device specific >> informations pls write it here. Also some feature ideas or potential >> problems will be very helpful. > Maybe you should involve these people in the conversation: > > https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=57101 > > > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
> "Eric" == Eric Schultz writes: Eric> I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation Eric> managed by experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, Eric> have plenty of areas to contribute but I don't see this area as Eric> one of them. I want to push back on this a little bit. Jimmy Wales had similar ideas, once upon a time (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia), and he was proven wrong, empirically. The beauty of wikis is that people are empowered to contribute what they know. Without that empowerment, the vehicles for sharing what they know is much more scattered and diffused. Yes, wikis are a shit storm of inconsistency. If people want more consistency what is really needed is people to garden the manure into neat rows. I can't begin to count the vast utility I have derived from the steaming heaps of barely coherent crap that has been dumped into OpenWrt wiki. If you close that vehicle off, what you will end up with is a whole lot of nothing, which I argue is vastly worse. If you want something that's pretty, hire someone to watch RecentChanges and clean stuff up. If the experts had the time and raw information to do it, we wouldn't be talking about this. The reality is that they don't. I argue for letting the rabble continue to contribute as they can. If you don't like what it looks like, that discomfort is trying to tell you what to do next: click the edit button and make it better. -- Russell Senior, President russ...@personaltelco.net ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
> Since I was referenced in that thread on the OpenWrt forum, I'll give my > two cents. The documentation initiative I tried to start seemed to > fizzle out from the difficulty in getting the front page of the wiki > changed to be more useful. When changes didn't seem possible (and it > wasn't clear how to make them happen), folks kind of lost commitment. I > will try to contact the folks I know though. > > I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation managed by > experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, have plenty of > areas to contribute but I don't see this area as one of them. I think so too. A further advantage over openWRT wiki is, we can auto generate many out of sources. Like target lists and device lists Also links and some other stuf. cheers Tarek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/08/16 11:08, Russell Senior wrote: >> "Eric" == Eric Schultz writes: > > Eric> I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation > Eric> managed by experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, > Eric> have plenty of areas to contribute but I don't see this area as > Eric> one of them. > > I want to push back on this a little bit. Jimmy Wales had similar > ideas, once upon a time (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia), and > he was proven wrong, empirically. The beauty of wikis is that people > are empowered to contribute what they know. Without that empowerment, > the vehicles for sharing what they know is much more scattered and > diffused. Yes, wikis are a shit storm of inconsistency. If people want > more consistency what is really needed is people to garden the manure > into neat rows. I can't begin to count the vast utility I have derived > from the steaming heaps of barely coherent crap that has been dumped > into OpenWrt wiki. If you close that vehicle off, what you will end up > with is a whole lot of nothing, which I argue is vastly worse. > > If you want something that's pretty, hire someone to watch RecentChanges > and clean stuff up. If the experts had the time and raw information to > do it, we wouldn't be talking about this. The reality is that they > don't. I argue for letting the rabble continue to contribute as they > can. If you don't like what it looks like, that discomfort is trying to > tell you what to do next: click the edit button and make it better. My main idea was to automate more parts. With asciidoc it is quiet easy to generate site out of lede source. We can do the same for wiki side. I do that here: https://wiki.nordwest.freifunk.net/Router/Hardware So maybe we can generate wiki tables out of source. vg Tarek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
Hi Tarek, > On Sep 8, 2016, at 11:34 , Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: > > > > On 09/08/16 11:08, Russell Senior wrote: >>> "Eric" == Eric Schultz writes: >> >> Eric> I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation >> Eric> managed by experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, >> Eric> have plenty of areas to contribute but I don't see this area as >> Eric> one of them. >> >> I want to push back on this a little bit. Jimmy Wales had similar >> ideas, once upon a time (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia), and >> he was proven wrong, empirically. The beauty of wikis is that people >> are empowered to contribute what they know. Without that empowerment, >> the vehicles for sharing what they know is much more scattered and >> diffused. Yes, wikis are a shit storm of inconsistency. If people want >> more consistency what is really needed is people to garden the manure >> into neat rows. I can't begin to count the vast utility I have derived >> from the steaming heaps of barely coherent crap that has been dumped >> into OpenWrt wiki. If you close that vehicle off, what you will end up >> with is a whole lot of nothing, which I argue is vastly worse. >> >> If you want something that's pretty, hire someone to watch RecentChanges >> and clean stuff up. If the experts had the time and raw information to >> do it, we wouldn't be talking about this. The reality is that they >> don't. I argue for letting the rabble continue to contribute as they >> can. If you don't like what it looks like, that discomfort is trying to >> tell you what to do next: click the edit button and make it better. > > My main idea was to automate more parts. > With asciidoc it is quiet easy to generate site out of lede source. > > We can do the same for wiki side. I do that here: > https://wiki.nordwest.freifunk.net/Router/Hardware > > So maybe we can generate wiki tables out of source. what about having an auto-generated section and a free-editable part so that users can add information? Like “have the cake and eat it too” ;) Also I believe the current ToH also contains pages for unsupported devices (which is worthwhile to have, if only to understand why to avoid certain models), how would you autocreate not yet supported models or models whose support is still happening outside the main tree? Best Regards Sebastian > > vg > Tarek > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
>> On 09/08/16 11:08, Russell Senior wrote:
"Eric" == Eric Schultz writes:
>>>
>>> Eric> I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation
>>> Eric> managed by experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should,
>>> Eric> have plenty of areas to contribute but I don't see this area as
>>> Eric> one of them.
>>>
>>> I want to push back on this a little bit. Jimmy Wales had similar
>>> ideas, once upon a time (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia), and
>>> he was proven wrong, empirically. The beauty of wikis is that people
>>> are empowered to contribute what they know. Without that empowerment,
>>> the vehicles for sharing what they know is much more scattered and
>>> diffused. Yes, wikis are a shit storm of inconsistency. If people want
>>> more consistency what is really needed is people to garden the manure
>>> into neat rows. I can't begin to count the vast utility I have derived
>>> from the steaming heaps of barely coherent crap that has been dumped
>>> into OpenWrt wiki. If you close that vehicle off, what you will end up
>>> with is a whole lot of nothing, which I argue is vastly worse.
>>>
>>> If you want something that's pretty, hire someone to watch RecentChanges
>>> and clean stuff up. If the experts had the time and raw information to
>>> do it, we wouldn't be talking about this. The reality is that they
>>> don't. I argue for letting the rabble continue to contribute as they
>>> can. If you don't like what it looks like, that discomfort is trying to
>>> tell you what to do next: click the edit button and make it better.
>>
>> My main idea was to automate more parts.
>> With asciidoc it is quiet easy to generate site out of lede source.
>>
>> We can do the same for wiki side. I do that here:
>> https://wiki.nordwest.freifunk.net/Router/Hardware
>>
>> So maybe we can generate wiki tables out of source.
>
> what about having an auto-generated section and a free-editable part so that
> users can add information? Like “have the cake and eat it too” ;)
> Also I believe the current ToH also contains pages for unsupported devices
> (which is worthwhile to have, if only to understand why to avoid certain
> models), how would you autocreate not yet supported models or models whose
> support is still happening outside the main tree?
oh the wiki sites I am currently not shure how we can generate content on the
sites.
Its also depence on witch wiki software we use. On nordwest.freifunk.net we
currently
use moinmoin wiki wich is realy awful...
But can create macros for many thinks. as an example:
For download links we can build a abstract macro
download(url,"suffix", version);
download("https://downloads.lede-project.org","tl-wr841","stable";);
cheers
Tarek
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
Russell Senior wrote: >> [on making documentation changes only via pull requests] >> > I want to push back on this a little bit. Jimmy Wales had > similar ideas, once upon a time (see > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia), and he was proven > wrong, empirically. The beauty of wikis is that people are > empowered to contribute what they know. Without that > empowerment, the vehicles for sharing what they know is much > more scattered and diffused. Yes, wikis are a shit storm of > inconsistency. If people want more consistency what is really > needed is people to garden the manure into neat rows. I can't > begin to count the vast utility I have derived from the > steaming heaps of barely coherent crap that has been dumped > into OpenWrt wiki. If you close that vehicle off, what you will > end up with is a whole lot of nothing, which I argue is vastly > worse. > > If you want something that's pretty, hire someone to watch > RecentChanges and clean stuff up. If the experts had the time > and raw information to do it, we wouldn't be talking about > this. The reality is that they don't. I argue for letting the > rabble continue to contribute as they can. If you don't like > what it looks like, that discomfort is trying to tell you what > to do next: click the edit button and make it better. I strongly support this. Doing documentation changes via git pulls only is a _major_ obstacle. Vanishingly few people will ever do minor corrections, and so few people already write major new articles. And that's _before_ you find these magical "reviewer" people to review documentation pulls! I fully recognise that not all the information in the openwrt wiki is correct or up to date, but that's why it has history annotations saying when it was written, and with your reading glasses on, you can get real useful information there, even if it's often incomplete, or sometimes slightly wrong, or outdated. People should be encouraged to edit more freely, not putting up more steps in the way. Sincerely, Karl Palsson signature.asc Description: OpenPGP Digital Signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: > > Since I was referenced in that thread on the OpenWrt forum, I'll give my > > two cents. The documentation initiative I tried to start seemed to > > fizzle out from the difficulty in getting the front page of the wiki > > changed to be more useful. When changes didn't seem possible (and it > > wasn't clear how to make them happen), folks kind of lost commitment. I > > will try to contact the folks I know though. > > > > I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation managed by > > experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, have plenty of > > areas to contribute but I don't see this area as one of them. > > I think so too. A further advantage over openWRT wiki is, we > can auto generate many out of sources. Like target lists and > device lists Also links and some other stuf. If you want to make some sort of autogenerated link tree to make it easier for people to find downloads, instead of having to work out or know in advance the archtecture of their targets, that sounds useful. Like, "where is the image for my company X, model BVBBB in this list: http://downloads.lede-project.org/snapshots/targets/"; ? But trying to apply this sort of autogeneration to any sort of meaningful description of each device, build notes, recovery tips, hardware sources, of the sort that was available in the openwrt hardware wiki sounds like a recipe for a sterile wasteland of autogenerated pages that all look the same and have no meaningful extra information in them. Sincerely, Karl P signature.asc Description: OpenPGP Digital Signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/08/16 12:59, Karl Palsson wrote: > > Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: >>> Since I was referenced in that thread on the OpenWrt forum, I'll give my >>> two cents. The documentation initiative I tried to start seemed to >>> fizzle out from the difficulty in getting the front page of the wiki >>> changed to be more useful. When changes didn't seem possible (and it >>> wasn't clear how to make them happen), folks kind of lost commitment. I >>> will try to contact the folks I know though. >>> >>> I think the idea of having the hardware support documentation managed by >>> experts is a good idea. Non-experts can, and should, have plenty of >>> areas to contribute but I don't see this area as one of them. >> >> I think so too. A further advantage over openWRT wiki is, we >> can auto generate many out of sources. Like target lists and >> device lists Also links and some other stuf. > > > If you want to make some sort of autogenerated link tree to make > it easier for people to find downloads, instead of having to work > out or know in advance the archtecture of their targets, that > sounds useful. Like, "where is the image for my company X, model > BVBBB in this list: > http://downloads.lede-project.org/snapshots/targets/"; ? > > But trying to apply this sort of autogeneration to any sort of > meaningful description of each device, build notes, recovery > tips, hardware sources, of the sort that was available in the > openwrt hardware wiki sounds like a recipe for a sterile > wasteland of autogenerated pages that all look the same and have > no meaningful extra information in them. Right. There also able for auto generatet informations. My goal is to make the ToH more easyer undastandlebil and human writebil. Also I wish we can establish a reviewing and applying process. But I dont know how we can resolv this inside a wiki cheers Tarek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
> "Jan-Tarek" == Jan-Tarek Butt writes: Jan-Tarek> Also I wish we can establish a reviewing and applying Jan-Tarek> process. But I dont know how we can resolv this inside a Jan-Tarek> wiki The traditional wiki approach is to let people make edits freely and to revert bad changes. That way, general progress isn't held up by overloaded reviewers. Again, see the history of Nupedia. "Before it ceased operating, Nupedia produced 25 approved articles" In contrast, in the first year, Wikipedia produced 18,000 articles. -- Russell Senior, President russ...@personaltelco.net ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/08/16 14:19, Russell Senior wrote: >> "Jan-Tarek" == Jan-Tarek Butt writes: > > Jan-Tarek> Also I wish we can establish a reviewing and applying > Jan-Tarek> process. But I dont know how we can resolv this inside a > Jan-Tarek> wiki > > The traditional wiki approach is to let people make edits freely and to > revert bad changes. That way, general progress isn't held up by > overloaded reviewers. Again, see the history of Nupedia. > > "Before it ceased operating, Nupedia produced 25 approved articles" > > In contrast, in the first year, Wikipedia produced 18,000 articles. OK, convinced ;) So what is about porting the old openWRT Wiki to LEDE? And witch wiki software sould we use? cheers Tarek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 08/09/2016 15:56, Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: > > > On 09/08/16 14:19, Russell Senior wrote: >>> "Jan-Tarek" == Jan-Tarek Butt writes: >> >> Jan-Tarek> Also I wish we can establish a reviewing and applying >> Jan-Tarek> process. But I dont know how we can resolv this inside a >> Jan-Tarek> wiki >> >> The traditional wiki approach is to let people make edits freely and to >> revert bad changes. That way, general progress isn't held up by >> overloaded reviewers. Again, see the history of Nupedia. >> >> "Before it ceased operating, Nupedia produced 25 approved articles" >> >> In contrast, in the first year, Wikipedia produced 18,000 articles. > > OK, convinced ;) > > So what is about porting the old openWRT Wiki to LEDE? > And witch wiki software sould we use? > > cheers > Tarek > wikipedia has a huge number of payed fulltime admins that delete articles. wiki.openwrt.org has none. you are comparing apples and pears here John > > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev > ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
The English Wikipedia has 1,294 administrators who can delete and protect pages, but these are definitely not paid, nor are they fulltime unless they choose to be. They are entirely volunteer, and are simply regular editors who have proven to be reliable and active. The English Wikipedia in general has 28,922,038 users and 5,234,360 articles. Note that this means there are roughly 4000 articles per admin. I really do not think approval processes are going to solve more problems than they cause. As was pointed out, approval processes are largely what sunk Nupedia. Although calling it "Nupedia" likely didn't help either. :-) - Original Message - From: "John Crispin" To: "Jan-Tarek Butt" , lede-dev@lists.infradead.org Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:08:37 AM Subject: Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware On 08/09/2016 15:56, Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: > > > On 09/08/16 14:19, Russell Senior wrote: >>>>>>> "Jan-Tarek" == Jan-Tarek Butt writes: >> >> Jan-Tarek> Also I wish we can establish a reviewing and applying >> Jan-Tarek> process. But I dont know how we can resolv this inside a >> Jan-Tarek> wiki >> >> The traditional wiki approach is to let people make edits freely and to >> revert bad changes. That way, general progress isn't held up by >> overloaded reviewers. Again, see the history of Nupedia. >> >> "Before it ceased operating, Nupedia produced 25 approved articles" >> >> In contrast, in the first year, Wikipedia produced 18,000 articles. > > OK, convinced ;) > > So what is about porting the old openWRT Wiki to LEDE? > And witch wiki software sould we use? > > cheers > Tarek > wikipedia has a huge number of payed fulltime admins that delete articles. wiki.openwrt.org has none. you are comparing apples and pears here John > > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev > ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 08/09/2016 16:30, Joseph Marlin wrote: > The English Wikipedia has 1,294 administrators who can delete and protect > pages, but these are definitely not paid, nor are they fulltime unless they > choose to be. They are entirely volunteer, and are simply regular editors who > have proven to be reliable and active. The English Wikipedia in general has > 28,922,038 users and 5,234,360 articles. > > Note that this means there are roughly 4000 articles per admin. > > I really do not think approval processes are going to solve more problems > than they cause. As was pointed out, approval processes are largely what sunk > Nupedia. Although calling it "Nupedia" likely didn't help either. :-) > minor details, openwrt wiki still has 0 admins that delete and protect pages, which is the important part of my mail > - Original Message - > From: "John Crispin" > To: "Jan-Tarek Butt" , lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:08:37 AM > Subject: Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous > Table of Hardware > > On 08/09/2016 15:56, Jan-Tarek Butt wrote: >> >> >> On 09/08/16 14:19, Russell Senior wrote: >>>>>>>> "Jan-Tarek" == Jan-Tarek Butt writes: >>> >>> Jan-Tarek> Also I wish we can establish a reviewing and applying >>> Jan-Tarek> process. But I dont know how we can resolv this inside a >>> Jan-Tarek> wiki >>> >>> The traditional wiki approach is to let people make edits freely and to >>> revert bad changes. That way, general progress isn't held up by >>> overloaded reviewers. Again, see the history of Nupedia. >>> >>> "Before it ceased operating, Nupedia produced 25 approved articles" >>> >>> In contrast, in the first year, Wikipedia produced 18,000 articles. >> >> OK, convinced ;) >> >> So what is about porting the old openWRT Wiki to LEDE? >> And witch wiki software sould we use? >> >> cheers >> Tarek >> > > wikipedia has a huge number of payed fulltime admins that delete > articles. wiki.openwrt.org has none. you are comparing apples and pears here > > John > >> >> >> ___ >> Lede-dev mailing list >> Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org >> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev >> > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev > ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
I think most people are a bit excessive here. LEDE wiki isn't Wikipedia and won't ever get anywhere near the amount of edits as a generalist wiki. Having some designated guy that gets an email and then looks at modifications to make sure it's not garbage is feasible imho, like a "wiki mantainer", and very important to keep the standards reasonable. Because ok that OpenWRT wiki is better than nothing, but don't make it look better than what it is. I think this project (as OpenWRT before it) needs a decent community magager(s), someone that does not code but deals with community stuff like answering people on emails, or in forums or keeping wiki in line. On 09/08/2016 04:34 PM, John Crispin wrote: On 08/09/2016 16:30, Joseph Marlin wrote: The English Wikipedia has 1,294 administrators who can delete and protect pages, but these are definitely not paid, nor are they fulltime unless they choose to be. They are entirely volunteer, and are simply regular editors who have proven to be reliable and active. The English Wikipedia in general has 28,922,038 users and 5,234,360 articles. Note that this means there are roughly 4000 articles per admin. I really do not think approval processes are going to solve more problems than they cause. As was pointed out, approval processes are largely what sunk Nupedia. Although calling it "Nupedia" likely didn't help either. :-) minor details, openwrt wiki still has 0 admins that delete and protect pages, which is the important part of my mail ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 08/09/2016 19:38, Thomas Endt wrote: > John> minor details, openwrt wiki still has 0 admins that delete > John> and protect pages, which is the important part of my mail. > > I'm still there... but to pick up the idea of LEDE, to have several people > for the same function in order to avoid a mess like at the beginning of this > year: OpenWrt or LEDE needs more gardeners like me. indeed that is the actual problem. the problem is not the process of adding stuff or the software used. it will regardless of how it is done boil down to dedicated gardeners taking care of the daily chores. ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
What a great discussion! I am delighted to see so much interest in the LEDE project, and concern for its success. But I want to pick up on something that Thomas said... > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Thomas Endt wrote: > > ... However, I'm > hesitating to invest as much time as I used to some months ago, since I > don't want to see my efforts wasted in a project that's somehow stalled due > to the split in LEDE and OpenWrt. I can only invest time in _one_ project, > and preferrably that would be a project that is live and vital. The way to ensure that LEDE thrives is to cause more people to come to it. That means, making it inviting. Right now, a new visitor to lede-project.org will see a few nicely formatted welcome pages, downloadable firmware images, but no documentation to speak of, and no (obvious) community. Yet the mailing list that shows an incredibly high level of activity from the core developers (dozens of patches a day), and this discussion shows there that LEDE involves a lively and interested group of people. To indicate this vibrancy to the world, we need to be more proactive in telling the world about ourselves. I advocate that we set up: 1) A Wiki that serves as documentation for LEDE 2) A Forum that lets the community talk to each other I'll talk about each in their own threads, so each conversation can continue on its own. Thanks. Rich Brown ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/08/16 19:38, Thomas Endt wrote: > [Sorry if this message is out-of-thread. I joined the mailinglist only > today] No problem :) > Russel> If you want something that's pretty, hire someone to watch > Russel> RecentChanges and clean stuff up. > > I did this quite intensively in the past, but needed some time for other > stuff during the last 5 months. > Triggered by a notice on the OpenWrt mailing list that the wiki got spammed > again, I slowly start watching the changes to the wiki again. However, I'm > hesitating to invest as much time as I used to some months ago, since I > don't want to see my efforts wasted in a project that's somehow stalled due > to the split in LEDE and OpenWrt. I can only invest time in _one_ project, > and preferrably that would be a project that is live and vital. I think openWRT is crumbled. So maybe we can create a new wiki under lede and use this step also for establishment a propper Maintaner of the ledeWiki. Maybe you.. ? > Russel> If the experts had the time and raw information to do it, we > wouldn't be talking about this. > > What I always said: Let the developers do what they can do best: Develop. > Documentation is an unliked child (I see this at my own privat projects) and > should be left to people dedicated to documentation. > > Jan-Tarek> My goal is to make the ToH more easyer undastandlebil and human > writebil. > > Can you be more precise what is hard to understand on the current OpenWrt > ToH? > It has been created by only a small bunch of highly interested people, and > what I was always missing was a broader feedback from the community and the > developers. > If there is the need for improvement, and if there are useful proposals, I'd > be happy to implement whatever is possible. Sorry I think I use wrong words. I mean an easier way of creating documantation. I am not the biggest fan of writing doc but some times we have to do some documentation. So I thought a bit how we can generate docu without spending much time for that. Because writing code ist more comfortable :D cheers Tarek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/09/2016 12:49 AM, Rich Brown wrote: Right now, a new visitor to lede-project.org will see a few nicely formatted welcome pages, downloadable firmware images, but no documentation to speak of, and no (obvious) community. Also no obvious rules to submit patches. https://www.lede-project.org/development.html >Submissions should follow these rules 1. TBD Yeah, very cool. People is asked to add a "signed by" line in the commit for lulz as there is nothing to sign. ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Rich Brown wrote: What a great discussion! I am delighted to see so much interest in the LEDE project, and concern for its success. But I want to pick up on something that Thomas said... On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Thomas Endt wrote: ... However, I'm hesitating to invest as much time as I used to some months ago, since I don't want to see my efforts wasted in a project that's somehow stalled due to the split in LEDE and OpenWrt. I can only invest time in _one_ project, and preferrably that would be a project that is live and vital. The way to ensure that LEDE thrives is to cause more people to come to it. That means, making it inviting. Right now, a new visitor to lede-project.org will see a few nicely formatted welcome pages, downloadable firmware images, but no documentation to speak of, and no (obvious) community. Yet the mailing list that shows an incredibly high level of activity from the core developers (dozens of patches a day), and this discussion shows there that LEDE involves a lively and interested group of people. To indicate this vibrancy to the world, we need to be more proactive in telling the world about ourselves. I advocate that we set up: 1) A Wiki that serves as documentation for LEDE 2) A Forum that lets the community talk to each other I'll talk about each in their own threads, so each conversation can continue on its own. Thanks. I'm cosely following work on the wrt1900/1200 routers right now and what I'm seeing is that the openwrt forums are mostly treating lede as just another community build, no better and no worse than what others build with closer forks of the openwrt tree. I think this is a healthy thing to do for the moment while we see what can happen from the merger discussions and the openwrt development. I've said before that if lede starts it's own forums, I'd like it to be something that can integrate mailing lists with web interaction (and mentioned how Baen books uses FUDForum and mailman to offer e-mail, web, and nntp access to the same messages) David Lang ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
Hi Tarek, Thomas Endt and others invested a lot of time to implement a structured table of hardware in the OpenWrt wiki, which means that a lot of detail information is accessible in a SQLite3 database file which should make it easy to generate hardware documentation pages with a little script and a few self-join queries. I also think that such a model would be a viable option for the future: have a structured data entry dialog in the wiki which fills a database, have all the surrounding wiki capabilities for free text information and use the resulting database backend data to provide other, non-wiki services like a vendor/model search to to download link redirection. Imho a well maintained hardware database is a very important topic for LEDE, OpenWrt and other associated projects but we need to find a sane middle ground that does not upset too many potential contributors but still yields a reasonable data quality... On a related note I wonder if anyone ever thought about joining forces with WikiDevi? It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do but I recall that the site operators are rather hard to contact. Just my two cents :) Regards, Jo ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
> On a related note I wonder if anyone ever thought about joining forces > with WikiDevi? Indeed, I already thought about this long ago. That's the reason why I implemented the link to wikidevi in the dataentry pages. wikidevi provides usefull data, and in fact, more data and more detailed data than we have in our ToH. The big advantage of wikidevi: It has a broader spectrum of potential contributors. Not only OpenWrt / LEDE users might be interested to contribute to wikidevi, but also DD-WRT or other interested users. That's also the reason why I advised: If the device is not supported by OpenWrt, feed your data to wikidevi, where it has a broader audience which could contribute. However, as you mentioned, the guy(s) at wikidevi are hard to catch. But since I didn't think it to the end, we should first make up our minds how the "joined forces" could look like and what we expect from it. What I was thinking back then: The ToH contains much technical information from wikidevi, plus some OpenWrt specific like 'Current supported release' or 'Unsupported (e.g. wifi not working)' and some more. Why do we need to copy the technical information from wikidevi in our ToH? Can't we directly pull from the wikidevi database? And also the other way round: wikidevi has already some links to OpenWrt... Can't wikidevi pull directly from our ToH database to always have the latest data on OpenWrt support? The same applies to techinfodepot.info. They actively have included OpenWrt in their dataentry. Nice! (e.g. http://techinfodepot.info/wiki/Linksys_WRT1900AC) My expectations: 1) By using wikidevi as source for hardware information, we can participate in the knowledge of a broader audience than OpenWrt/LEDE has alone. -> Less maintenance efforts for the LEDE wiki admin -> Faster input of missing hardware information through broader audience 2) By providing LEDE support status information to other websites, LEDE shows presence and gives the user a convenient information at hand, that his device is supported by LEDE, together with a link on how to install etc (a.k.a. devicepage). Comments are welcome! Thomas ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
On 09/14/2016 09:00 PM, Thomas Endt wrote: > However, as you mentioned, the guy(s) at wikidevi are hard to catch. But > since I didn't think it to the end, we should first make up our minds how > the "joined forces" could look like and what we expect from it. I'd rather avoid having only links as wikidevi did go offline for weeks/months in the past and might just disappear overninght (like any other wiki, for that matter), but cloning information on both and keeping the cloned parts in sync is a good idea. I also agree with the rest of the message. Would be also cool to show what network adapters are supported by LEDE and by what packages. I think techinfodepot is going to be more cooperative with this plan than wikidevi, although wikidevi is already queryable somehwhat so extracting data would work. For an expansion into the NAS area (an area where LEDE is still not really that present atm), it might be considered to do a similar thing with NAS Central, which seems to have a similar wiki about most NAS hardware http://www.nas-central.org/wiki/Main_Page But I also think that this isn't a top priority for now, the work needed to get this working should be done later, when the wiki is more or less in shape about documentation and tutorials. Really I think documentation and tutorials are the top priority (as they are in the worst shape overall), hardware database is decent as-is. -Alberto ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
Re: [LEDE-DEV] Documentation for router support means the famous Table of Hardware
> von Alberto Bursi > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. September 2016 00:44 > I think techinfodepot is going to be more cooperative with this plan > than wikidevi, although wikidevi is already queryable somehwhat so > extracting data would work. >From a PM: "I believe that DarkShadow the creator of TechInfoDepot is in the process of entering all of the data into WikiDevi and plans to discontinue TechInfoDepot when the process is complete. You can see some of the progress by looking at Recent changes on WikiDevi." > For an expansion into the NAS area (an area where LEDE is still not > really that present atm), it might be considered to do a similar thing > with NAS Central, which seems to have a similar wiki about most NAS > hardware http://www.nas-central.org/wiki/Main_Page Another good idea to put on the list. > But I also think that this isn't a top priority for now, the work > needed to get this working should be done later, when the wiki is more > or less in shape about documentation and tutorials. > Really I think documentation and tutorials are the top priority (as > they are in the worst shape overall), hardware database is decent as- > is. Agreed. The hardware DB is the easiest to carry over, however, it will require some work to do it right. More about this when the wiki is set up. Thomas ___ Lede-dev mailing list Lede-dev@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
