Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
Ron, Sara, Elaine, Linda, Mary, Elizabeth, Jan, John and others who responded off-list, Many thanks to all of you for your responses on the issue of which name to list for an adopted child, his birth name or adopted name. Following all of the above emails, I believe I am showing it "correctly", i.e., using his legally adopted name (which is the name by which he is known to everyone including his birth mother), but listing his birth name as an AKA. Thanks again to all of you, isn't this list great? Regards, Dermot. On 14/09/2007, ronald ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 14/09/2007, Sara Binkley Tarpley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 14/09/2007, Elaine O'Neill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 15/09/2007, Linda Altman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 14/09/2007, Mary Lassiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 15/09/2007, Elizabeth Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 15/09/2007, Jan Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. On 16/09/2007, hwedhlor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
As an adopted child, I have to say that I am in complete accord with Sara. I am now 63, and found my birth mother, plus a half-sister and a half-brother, last year after a 40 year search. I am thrilled to have made a connection with all of them, and love them very dearly. We get together often, and write constantly. My sister is so similar to me that we like twins in many regards, and as icing on that cake, Diane is an enthusiastic genealogist! Having said all that, I am still John Zimmerman to everyone I know, and that includes my birth mother. The given names I was born with were given me by the hospital in which I was born, not by my birth mother, who couldn't bear to name me knowing that she must give me up after three months. The hospital added their choice of given names to my birth mother's surname, and that is how my original birth certificate was issued. It would be pointless to go by those given names, as they are meaningless to all of us, and were never used, except by the hospital. All of my recorded history, and documents show me by my adoptive name, and to enter that name as an AKA would be false, misleading and an insult to the adoptive parents who loved me and raised me, and who I love and respect. Additionally, the adoptive records concerning me were sealed by the courts, and not available to researchers, so every record of me that could be accessed by researchers shows my adoptive name. Therefore it is my birth name that is entered as AKA. My father's surname is not a factor in any of this, as he was never present in my life except at my conception. In Legacy, and the other genealogical software that I use, I am John Zimmerman. My birth mother is one of my alternate parents, and when I print a report showing my bloodlines, I am there as John Zimmerman. It feels right to all of us, and is legally correct. John John Zimmerman Mesa, Arizona Sara Binkley Tarpley wrote: I am the adoptive mother of a child born in Guatemala to parents who were unknown to anyone, including the Guatemalan courts. My child's birth name was given to him by the court system and is not his legal name now. Why would I use it at all although I see no harm in putting it in an AKA or in notes? When we adopted our son, the Guatemalan adoption decree changed his name to his Spanish given names with my surname and my husband's surname shown as his last name in the Hispanic fashion. That became his legal name. However, he used the given names we gave him plus just our surname until this began to cause problems with working, getting a driver's license, etc. At that time we did a legal name change. However, our son's situation is atypical. In domestic adoptions a new birth certificate is issued, showing the name given to the child by his adoptive parents and showing them as the parents. Legally the original name is irrelevant. I know that genealogists focused on blood lines find this hard to understand. Actually it is possible to change a child's birth date as well. This is sometimes done with internationally adopted children who are delayed developmentally because of early deprivation. Just as the name can be changed, so can the birth date. In addition, there are internationally adopted children whose exact ages are not known and for whom a date of birth must be assigned. I think that there are many in the adoption community who would be offended by the birth name being shown as the primary or "real" name. Practically and legally, it is the adoptive name that counts. Sara On 9/14/07, ronald ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dermot, It rather depends on what the person (if alive) would wish. Generally I would use the birth name as the proper name and the adopted (or step) name as the AKA. Years ago, of course, UK adoption in the legal sense was not common and one would see "adopted" kids using their birth name when on their marriage papers. I would have no problems doing it the other way round (and do) and in both cases I make notes to say what the position actually is. Ron Ferguson _ For Genealogy, Software and Social visit: http://www.fergys.co.uk *Over 650 Surnames from 11 Countries* View the Grimshaw Family Tree at: http://www.fergys.co.uk/Grimshaw/ For The Fergusons of N.W. England See: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fergys/ _ From: "Dermot McGlone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyFamilyTree.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:07:04 +0100 Following a few e-mails regarding how (in Legacy) to deal with adopted children and those with more than one set of parents, I've had a look at a few in my records. I've got one person who was "given up" for adoption at birth. He is listed on ym data
RE: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
Not an adopted children situation - but a surname issue just the same. My late first husband was born (let's say) Peter George SMITH. His parents were John SMITH and Jane BLACK, legally married, in a loving relationship that produced three children. When 'Peter' was just three - his second sister not yet born - his father died of blood poisoning. Although his mother remarried some six years later the three children all carried their father's surname. 'Peter' married, had a family and then the marriage broke down. Following a rather nasty divorce he chose to make a new life for himself, complete with a legal name change. By the time I met him he was legally known as (say) Frederick James BLACK. For my entire marriage I was Mrs BLACK, my daughter is Miss BLACK. So I have entered 'Frederick's' parents into Legacy as John SMITH and Jane BLACK, but he is entered as Frederick BLACK. (Of course this is a little more confusing, BLACK being his mother's maiden name.) I have recorded his birth name as an AKA, and in notes. To do otherwise would wrongly give my daughter the surname SMITH, and would show me as Mrs SMITH - I have never been Mrs SMITH, only Mrs BLACK. As Sara says, the primary name must be the name by which the person was / is generally known. Cheers, Jan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sara Binkley Tarpley Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2007 3:23:AM To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children I think that there are many in the adoption community who would be offended by the birth name being shown as the primary or "real" name. Practically and legally, it is the adoptive name that counts. Sara On 9/14/07, ronald ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dermot, No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.19/1008 - Release Date: 14.09.2007 8:59:AM Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
I know a family who adopted two Chinese girls. When the parents were asked where they were from, the parents could only say "We can show you the stairwell where you were found." Sometimes birth names and parents names both are impossible to know. Elizabeth C Sara Binkley Tarpley wrote: I am the adoptive mother of a child born in Guatemala to parents who were unknown to anyone, including the Guatemalan courts. My child's birth name was given to him by the court system and is not his legal name now. Why would I use it at all although I see no harm in putting it in an AKA or in notes? When we adopted our son, the Guatemalan adoption decree changed his name to his Spanish given names with my surname and my husband's surname shown as his last name in the Hispanic fashion. That became his legal name. However, he used the given names we gave him plus just our surname until this began to cause problems with working, getting a driver's license, etc. At that time we did a legal name change. However, our son's situation is atypical. In domestic adoptions a new birth certificate is issued, showing the name given to the child by his adoptive parents and showing them as the parents. Legally the original name is irrelevant. I know that genealogists focused on blood lines find this hard to understand. Actually it is possible to change a child's birth date as well. This is sometimes done with internationally adopted children who are delayed developmentally because of early deprivation. Just as the name can be changed, so can the birth date. In addition, there are internationally adopted children whose exact ages are not known and for whom a date of birth must be assigned. I think that there are many in the adoption community who would be offended by the birth name being shown as the primary or "real" name. Practically and legally, it is the adoptive name that counts. Sara On 9/14/07, ronald ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dermot, It rather depends on what the person (if alive) would wish. Generally I would use the birth name as the proper name and the adopted (or step) name as the AKA. Years ago, of course, UK adoption in the legal sense was not common and one would see "adopted" kids using their birth name when on their marriage papers. I would have no problems doing it the other way round (and do) and in both cases I make notes to say what the position actually is. Ron Ferguson _ For Genealogy, Software and Social visit: http://www.fergys.co.uk *Over 650 Surnames from 11 Countries* View the Grimshaw Family Tree at: http://www.fergys.co.uk/Grimshaw/ For The Fergusons of N.W. England See: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fergys/ _ From: "Dermot McGlone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyFamilyTree.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:07:04 +0100 Following a few e-mails regarding how (in Legacy) to deal with adopted children and those with more than one set of parents, I've had a look at a few in my records. I've got one person who was "given up" for adoption at birth. He is listed on ym database under his adopted name, with the name his birth mother gave him (his first name and her surname) listed as an AKA. This person is still alive as is his birth mother, they have made contact about 7 years ago, but she, and the rest of her family (which includes me!), now call him by his adopted name rather than the name given to him at birth. I'm just wondering how others on this list would deal with a situation like this, i.e., which name you would list as the "correct" name and which as an AKA, and the reasons why you would do this. Regards, Dermot. _ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
I am an adoptee and I use my birthname on my tree as it reflects my ethnic and cultural heritage, along with my family history. I think preference should be left to the adoptee. Mary - Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
In my situation, I am the biological mother of my daughter however my husband is her legally adoptive father. Her birth certificate was changed to show my current husband as her father. The biological father has no rights in this matter. Court records are sealed and cannot be opened easily. Only the parties initially named in the adoption proceedings and any attorneys representing them can access these records. As far as Legacy and reporting goes, we go by her legal name, not her birth name. Those researching bloodlines may disagree, but her biological paternal family are total strangers to her. The only reason they would need to be listed is if there were medical or genetic issues that arise. Other than that, there is no need to list them, she does not wish to have anything to do with them (she is now an adult and can make those decisions for herself). The people who have been there for her all of her life are her family, not the person who happened to be there at conception. Linda Altman http://www.southerngenealogy.com Southern Genealogy uses Legacy Family Tree! This highly acclaimed genealogy program can be downloaded FREE at http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Index.asp?mid=6BL9QCi -Original Message- From: Sara Binkley Tarpley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 12:23 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children However, our son's situation is atypical. In domestic adoptions a new birth certificate is issued, showing the name given to the child by his adoptive parents and showing them as the parents. Legally the original name is irrelevant. I know that genealogists focused on blood lines find this hard to understand. Actually it is possible to change a child's birth date as well. This is sometimes done with internationally adopted children who are delayed developmentally because of early deprivation. Just as the name can be changed, so can the birth date. In addition, there are internationally adopted children whose exact ages are not known and for whom a date of birth must be assigned. I think that there are many in the adoption community who would be offended by the birth name being shown as the primary or "real" name. Practically and legally, it is the adoptive name that counts. Sara Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
Sara is absolutely right on this point! I am adopted and as far as I'm concerned my legal, adopted name is my "real" name, and my name at birth is my AKA. However, I am not only tracing my adopted family lines, but my biological maternal lines. My biological paternal lines are unknown. What I have done is maintain two databases. One for the adopted family, and one for the bio. In the adopted one, I list my birth mother, but not as the preferred parent, and in the bio database I do the reverse. It may not be the "correct" way, but it works for me. Elaine O'. in the Beautiful Missouri Ozarks On 9/14/07, Sara Binkley Tarpley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think that there are many in the adoption community who would be > offended by the birth name being shown as the primary or "real" name. > Practically and legally, it is the adoptive name that counts. > > Sara Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
I am the adoptive mother of a child born in Guatemala to parents who were unknown to anyone, including the Guatemalan courts. My child's birth name was given to him by the court system and is not his legal name now. Why would I use it at all although I see no harm in putting it in an AKA or in notes? When we adopted our son, the Guatemalan adoption decree changed his name to his Spanish given names with my surname and my husband's surname shown as his last name in the Hispanic fashion. That became his legal name. However, he used the given names we gave him plus just our surname until this began to cause problems with working, getting a driver's license, etc. At that time we did a legal name change. However, our son's situation is atypical. In domestic adoptions a new birth certificate is issued, showing the name given to the child by his adoptive parents and showing them as the parents. Legally the original name is irrelevant. I know that genealogists focused on blood lines find this hard to understand. Actually it is possible to change a child's birth date as well. This is sometimes done with internationally adopted children who are delayed developmentally because of early deprivation. Just as the name can be changed, so can the birth date. In addition, there are internationally adopted children whose exact ages are not known and for whom a date of birth must be assigned. I think that there are many in the adoption community who would be offended by the birth name being shown as the primary or "real" name. Practically and legally, it is the adoptive name that counts. Sara On 9/14/07, ronald ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dermot, > > It rather depends on what the person (if alive) would wish. Generally I > would use the birth name as the proper name and the adopted (or step) name > as the AKA. Years ago, of course, UK adoption in the legal sense was not > common and one would see "adopted" kids using their birth name when on their > marriage papers. > > I would have no problems doing it the other way round (and do) and in both > cases I make notes to say what the position actually is. > > Ron Ferguson > > > > _ > > For Genealogy, Software and Social visit: > http://www.fergys.co.uk > *Over 650 Surnames from 11 Countries* > View the Grimshaw Family Tree at: > http://www.fergys.co.uk/Grimshaw/ > For The Fergusons of N.W. England See: > http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fergys/ > _ > > > > > > >From: "Dermot McGlone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com > >To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyFamilyTree.com > >Subject: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children > >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:07:04 +0100 > > > >Following a few e-mails regarding how (in Legacy) to deal with adopted > >children and those with more than one set of parents, I've had a look > >at a few in my records. I've got one person who was "given up" for > >adoption at birth. He is listed on ym database under his adopted > >name, with the name his birth mother gave him (his first name and her > >surname) listed as an AKA. This person is still alive as is his birth > >mother, they have made contact about 7 years ago, but she, and the > >rest of her family (which includes me!), now call him by his adopted > >name rather than the name given to him at birth. > > > >I'm just wondering how others on this list would deal with a situation > >like this, i.e., which name you would list as the "correct" name and > >which as an AKA, and the reasons why you would do this. > > > >Regards, > > > >Dermot. > > _ > The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk > > > > > Legacy User Group guidelines: >http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp > Archived messages: >http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ > Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp > To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp > > > Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children
Dermot, It rather depends on what the person (if alive) would wish. Generally I would use the birth name as the proper name and the adopted (or step) name as the AKA. Years ago, of course, UK adoption in the legal sense was not common and one would see "adopted" kids using their birth name when on their marriage papers. I would have no problems doing it the other way round (and do) and in both cases I make notes to say what the position actually is. Ron Ferguson _ For Genealogy, Software and Social visit: http://www.fergys.co.uk *Over 650 Surnames from 11 Countries* View the Grimshaw Family Tree at: http://www.fergys.co.uk/Grimshaw/ For The Fergusons of N.W. England See: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fergys/ _ From: "Dermot McGlone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyFamilyTree.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to enter details of adopted children Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:07:04 +0100 Following a few e-mails regarding how (in Legacy) to deal with adopted children and those with more than one set of parents, I've had a look at a few in my records. I've got one person who was "given up" for adoption at birth. He is listed on ym database under his adopted name, with the name his birth mother gave him (his first name and her surname) listed as an AKA. This person is still alive as is his birth mother, they have made contact about 7 years ago, but she, and the rest of her family (which includes me!), now call him by his adopted name rather than the name given to him at birth. I'm just wondering how others on this list would deal with a situation like this, i.e., which name you would list as the "correct" name and which as an AKA, and the reasons why you would do this. Regards, Dermot. _ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
