Re: [OSM-legal-talk] A license bot that has produced too many errors

[Maarten Deen]

On 2012-07-17 13:01, fk270...@fantasymail.de wrote:

The detrimental license bot now has reached Germany and promptly left
a lot of errors here.

Let's just look at one city, Göttingen in Northern Germany, where I
have contacted some undecided users, so I have some knowledge about
pre-bot history.

There are so many errors with severe legal implications, so I would
like to publish them on the legal-talk list. Their manipulated 
history

is such a heavy infringement of Creative Commons license that even an
agreer could easily sue the OSMF if he was willing to waste time and
money on a senseless trial. Let me show the examples:

- agreeing mapper's node disappeared
http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=60580009


Is there a way for normal users to check the correctness of the bot? 
For this node, the history on [1] is not really helpful. It just says 
that versions 1-3 are blocked after redaction. How am I to check that 
that is correct?


[1] 

Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] A license bot that has produced too many errors

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 07/17/2012 01:01 PM, fk270...@fantasymail.de wrote:

- agreeing mapper's node disappeared
http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=60580009

Version 3 of this node (51.5400973, 9.9564636) was last edited by
agreeing user Sasude. By removing this precisely located node, an
intersection of four streets was destroyed.


I see no legal implication here.


- street has disappeared completely

The southern part of Dahlmannstraße with bus route No. 6 has
disappeared completely though it was last edited by agreers.


No legal implication either.


- intersections were cut off - ODbL history ignores agreeing users
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8091768

Both intersections were cut off though these nodes were last edited
by an agreer. Undediced mapper Hotte Degoe has created an empty line
without any tags. All tags were added by agreeing users, all points
have been moved by agreeing users as well. Only v1 should be hidden,
all other versions by agreeing mappers should be visible.


Only the tags of the additional versions could be shown; not the 
geometry. But I agree with you that it would be desirable to actually 
show the names of the participating mappers even if we cannot list 
details of their work. This is why we're making a distinction between 
"Redaction 2" and "Redaction 1". We plan to list basic meta data for 
"Redaction 2" type events, see also: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/redactions/2



- decliner included in ODbL history
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=60922724

Lobelt has declined the new contributor terms so far mainly for
political reasons, but he still appears in the "clean" ODbL history
because he has removed a senseless tag. Removing a tag does not
constitute a copyright, but mentioning him in the history is an
infringement of moral rights.


No it isn't.


- OSMF Redaction Account claims to be the only author
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8573909

Since the OSMF Redaction Account did not create any way, he cannot
pretend to be the author of any way.


It doesn't. You are just reading it wrong, or looking at the wrong web 
page. Compare: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8573909/history



- ODbL history ignores too many agreeing users (2nd example)
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8094092 Undediced mapper
Hotte Degoe has created an empty line without any tags. All tags were
added by agreeing users, all points have been moved by agreeing users
as well. Only v1 should be hidden, all other versions by agreeing
mappers should be visible.


The bot always considers a node membership in a way to be copyrightable, 
no matter if that node has been moved or not. Had you thought about this 
earlier and contributed a test case - or even taken part in the 
constructive discussion - then maybe this could have been done differently.



These seven examples are quite simple cases without any
complications. I am sure that some of you will be able to find many
more examples where the bot has made severe errors.


None of these errors are "severe", and none have any legal implications 
that I can see.



- OSMI should not ignore bot deletions Streets destroyed by the bot
(e.g. Dahlmannstraße in Göttingen) disappear on OSMI, so there is no
chance to check what the bot has destroyed, and why he did so.


I'm sure we'll find a good way of displaying bot edits. I made a post 
about this on the dev list. Simply showing all bot deletions is not very 
helpful though, because there is no way to get rid of such markings even 
if the deleted data has long been replaced.


I object to your choice of the word "destroyed a street". The bot does 
not destroy streets. It just prevents data from being published.



Hiding versions may be considered as breech of
Creative Commons license,


See above remark about "Redaction 1"/"Redaction 2". If you have any 
Rails skills then your help is certainly welcome.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] A license bot that has produced too many errors

[Simon Poole]

Am 17.07.2012 13:01, schrieb fk270...@fantasymail.de:
> The detrimental license bot now has reached Germany and promptly left a lot 
> of errors here.
>
> Let's just look at one city, Göttingen in Northern Germany, where I have 
> contacted some undecided users, so I have some knowledge about pre-bot 
> history. 
>
> There are so many errors with severe legal implications,
Ok... lets see:


>  so I would like to publish them on the legal-talk list. Their manipulated 
> history is such a heavy infringement of Creative Commons license that even an 
> agreer could easily sue the OSMF if he was willing to waste time and money on 
> a senseless trial. Let me show the examples:
>
> - agreeing mapper's node disappeared
> http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=60580009

No legal implication.
>
> Version 3 of this node (51.5400973, 9.9564636) was last edited by agreeing 
> user Sasude. By removing this precisely located node, an intersection of four 
> streets was destroyed.
>
> - street has disappeared completely
>
> The southern part of Dahlmannstraße with bus route No. 6 has disappeared 
> completely though it was last edited by agreers.
>
> - intersections were cut off
> - ODbL history ignores agreeing users
> http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8091768

No legal implication.

>
> Both intersections were cut off though these nodes were last edited by an 
> agreer.
> Undediced mapper Hotte Degoe has created an empty line without any tags. All 
> tags were added by agreeing users, all points have been moved by agreeing 
> users as well.
> Only v1 should be hidden, all other versions by agreeing mappers should be 
> visible.
No legal implication.
> - decliner included in ODbL history
> http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=60922724
>
> Lobelt has declined the new contributor terms so far mainly for political 
> reasons, but he still appears in the "clean" ODbL history because he has 
> removed a senseless tag. Removing a tag does not constitute a copyright, but 
> mentioning him in the history is an infringement of moral rights.
> v2 should be hidden.
Why would -mentioning- him be an infringement of moral rights, if at all
it would be the other way around. No legal implication.
> - OSMF Redaction Account claims to be the only author
> http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8573909
>
> Since the OSMF Redaction Account did not create any way, he cannot pretend to 
> be the author of any way. This pretense is illegal according to Creative 
> Commons and rude though legal according to new ODbL license.
> At least some human users should appear in the history.
>
> - ODbL history ignores too many agreeing users (2nd example)
> http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8094092
> Undediced mapper Hotte Degoe has created an empty line without any tags. All 
> tags were added by agreeing users, all points have been moved by agreeing 
> users as well.
> Only v1 should be hidden, all other versions by agreeing mappers should be 
> visible.

Currently edits by agreeing users that would expose material by a
non-agreeing user are not displayed by the API/GUI. All users that have
agreed to the CTs have agreed to "bulk" attribution, no material from
non-agreeing users has been used (exception trivial edits that are
attributed as you note). No legal implication.
>
> These seven examples are quite simple cases without any complications. I am 
> sure that some of you will be able to find many more examples where the bot 
> has made severe errors.

Well up to now you have not found a single case with an "error"..

Simon




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[OSM-legal-talk] A license bot that has produced too many errors

[FK270673]

The detrimental license bot now has reached Germany and promptly left a lot of 
errors here.

Let's just look at one city, Göttingen in Northern Germany, where I have 
contacted some undecided users, so I have some knowledge about pre-bot history. 

There are so many errors with severe legal implications, so I would like to 
publish them on the legal-talk list. Their manipulated history is such a heavy 
infringement of Creative Commons license that even an agreer could easily sue 
the OSMF if he was willing to waste time and money on a senseless trial. Let me 
show the examples:

- agreeing mapper's node disappeared
http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=60580009

Version 3 of this node (51.5400973, 9.9564636) was last edited by agreeing user 
Sasude. By removing this precisely located node, an intersection of four 
streets was destroyed.

- street has disappeared completely

The southern part of Dahlmannstraße with bus route No. 6 has disappeared 
completely though it was last edited by agreers.

- intersections were cut off
- ODbL history ignores agreeing users
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8091768

Both intersections were cut off though these nodes were last edited by an 
agreer.
Undediced mapper Hotte Degoe has created an empty line without any tags. All 
tags were added by agreeing users, all points have been moved by agreeing users 
as well.
Only v1 should be hidden, all other versions by agreeing mappers should be 
visible.

- decliner included in ODbL history
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=60922724

Lobelt has declined the new contributor terms so far mainly for political 
reasons, but he still appears in the "clean" ODbL history because he has 
removed a senseless tag. Removing a tag does not constitute a copyright, but 
mentioning him in the history is an infringement of moral rights.
v2 should be hidden.

- OSMF Redaction Account claims to be the only author
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8573909

Since the OSMF Redaction Account did not create any way, he cannot pretend to 
be the author of any way. This pretense is illegal according to Creative 
Commons and rude though legal according to new ODbL license.
At least some human users should appear in the history.

- ODbL history ignores too many agreeing users (2nd example)
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=8094092
Undediced mapper Hotte Degoe has created an empty line without any tags. All 
tags were added by agreeing users, all points have been moved by agreeing users 
as well.
Only v1 should be hidden, all other versions by agreeing mappers should be 
visible.

These seven examples are quite simple cases without any complications. I am 
sure that some of you will be able to find many more examples where the bot has 
made severe errors.

Finally, let me give two suggestions for a clean and transparent transition:

- OSMI should not ignore bot deletions
Streets destroyed by the bot (e.g. Dahlmannstraße in Göttingen) disappear on 
OSMI, so there is no chance to check what the bot has destroyed, and why he did 
so. Human users usually deliberate before they delete an object, the bot did 
not deliberate at all. Please allow local users to check where the bot has 
completely destroyed a street.

- Please make bot deletions transparent
For a transitional period of several weeks, "invisible" versions of history 
should be visible with RED letters so that everybody can check whether the bot 
has hidden too much information. Hiding versions may be considered as breech of 
Creative Commons license, displaying them in RED letters until the final cut is 
definitely legal.

As there are a lot of errors in the bot-generated history, it will still take 
some weeks or months until a clean license change can happen.

2008-2010
It took two years to write the license
2010-2012
It took two years to convince the community
2012-2014
It may take up to two years to achieve a clear license change

Yours, with best regards
OSM user #42429

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