Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[tomoya muramoto]

I made a OSM wiki page on this topic.

It's sorry to be late.

If I misunderstand your opinion, please modify the page or put your comment.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copy_content_from_a_business_website

muramoto
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Tom Hummel]

> Along the same reasoning you could say: “I do not think that a state
> makes a substantial investment in mapping the roads they maintain.
> Since the state plans, builds and maintains the roads it should be
> fairly trivial for them to make a map.”

The argument was never that any collection of information about your
organisation will always be trivial. It has always been strictly
limited to opening hours, since that was the main topic.

Extending a claim beyond it's original realm of validity or
application—thus proving it wrong—would be unsound reasoning. Please
see Schopenhauer, ”Eristic Dialectic: The Art of Winning an Argument”,
Section 1 „Erweiterung des Rahmens“, in english: “The Extension“.

Of course there are collections of information (i.e. databases) about
one's own organisation that are vastly complex. Even so complex, that
companies sometimes fail at the task. So your argument was right—some
of these can easily require substantial investments—but that was not
the argument.

> Using data on incompatible license is still utterly
> unacceptable, even in cases where suing is not going to happen.

Yes.

Cheers.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Jul 2019, at 11:37, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> For example I may draw a red circle
> and publish it under CC BY-NC.
> 
> But drawing of a red circle is not copyrightable,
> as it is to simple to qualify for protection
> and lacks originality.


it may depend on the story you tell about your red circle. 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

9 Jul 2019, 09:03 by muramototom...@gmail.com:
> Assume that TESCO has published the shop data under the CC BY license. Then 
> can I use that data for OSM?
> I think that data is not available because CC BY license is incompatible with 
> ODbL as OSMF has stated.
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2017/03/17/use-of-cc-by-data/ 
> 
>
CC-BY is not making data available.

But data not covered by copyright is not 
becoming copyrightable by releasing
or under a license.

The same applies to copyright-like restrictions applied to databases 

For example I may draw a red circle
and publish it under CC BY-NC.

But drawing of a red circle is not copyrightable,
as it is to simple to qualify for protection
and lacks originality.

So anyone may take this image and use it for any purposes,
 including commercial purposes forbidden by CC BY-NC.

> However, current data published by TESCO under the "misleading" terms is 
> considered as available.
>
Assuming that this part of data is not 
eligible for 
copyright and copyright-like restrictions then
it can not be restricted by using copyright and copyright-like rules.
> After this discussion I would like to make an OSM wiki page as an agreement 
> by the OSM global community. 
> wiki/Available_Data is fine for it?
>
It would be a great idea to document summary of this.

Note that there is already "Copyright" page.

Adding it there or linking new page would be likely a good idea.
In case of doing this (what would be great), please link it 
here - some people may be able to name further
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

11 Jul 2019, 22:48 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> It’s more likely they would pay you for this than sue you.
>
Note that it is perspective that we should
use during using external data.

Using data on incompatible license is still utterly
unacceptable, even in cases where suing is not going to happen.___
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Kathleen Lu via legal-talk]

There is fairly limited case law on what constitutes "substantial
investment" under the database law. Here is an article discussing a couple
of cases where significant investment was rejected, and one where it was
accepted (sadly all in the context of sports, not geodata) -
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ddc63c34-a49f-4876-86d5-aaec83d65ed1
Best,
Kathleen



On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:48 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 11. Jul 2019, at 20:23, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> >
> > "Substantial investment" may not be a black and white standard, but it
> is a meaningful one. I hypothesize that Tesco would have difficulty proving
> "a substantial investment in either the obtaining, verification or
> presentation of the contents." (Note that investment in creating/setting
> the hours does not count.)
>
>
> It may have come along as sarcasm the way I have written it, but the idea
> is actually appealing: significant investment wrt the database could
> eventually be dismissed for those databases, which are more or less the
> result of some related operation/work, a byproduct, rather than being set
> up to gather and analyze data without being required in the operation. The
> investment would be the operation, while the db as a byproduct would be
> almost “free”. The OpenStreetMap database would still be protected under
> perspective, but a lot of databases would not be protected automatically
> any more.
>
> The maps the GIS department releases are definitely requiring a
> significant investment, but the lists of streets a municipality releases
> would probably not be covered by the sui generis rule because there is not
> much specific investment behind such a compilation, it is a byproduct of
> their operation as a public administration. Or the post code lists of the
> postal service: the effort is not specifically put into the db, they only
> have to print what they already know from planning and organizing the
> postal service.
>
> Is there already case law with examples where a claimed significant
> investment has been rejected? I would suspect that almost any database
> could be seen as having required a lot of investment for the creation and
> updates, or not, according to how you put it.
>
> From a practical point of view I agree I would not be worried about
> copying opening hours (or addresses, or phone numbers) from a retail
> company’s website, e.g. Tesco. It’s more likely they would pay you for this
> than sue you.
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Jul 2019, at 20:23, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> 
> "Substantial investment" may not be a black and white standard, but it is a 
> meaningful one. I hypothesize that Tesco would have difficulty proving "a 
> substantial investment in either the obtaining, verification or presentation 
> of the contents." (Note that investment in creating/setting the hours does 
> not count.)


It may have come along as sarcasm the way I have written it, but the idea is 
actually appealing: significant investment wrt the database could eventually be 
dismissed for those databases, which are more or less the result of some 
related operation/work, a byproduct, rather than being set up to gather and 
analyze data without being required in the operation. The investment would be 
the operation, while the db as a byproduct would be almost “free”. The 
OpenStreetMap database would still be protected under perspective, but a lot of 
databases would not be protected automatically any more. 

The maps the GIS department releases are definitely requiring a significant 
investment, but the lists of streets a municipality releases would probably not 
be covered by the sui generis rule because there is not much specific 
investment behind such a compilation, it is a byproduct of their operation as a 
public administration. Or the post code lists of the postal service: the effort 
is not specifically put into the db, they only have to print what they already 
know from planning and organizing the postal service.

Is there already case law with examples where a claimed significant investment 
has been rejected? I would suspect that almost any database could be seen as 
having required a lot of investment for the creation and updates, or not, 
according to how you put it. 

From a practical point of view I agree I would not be worried about copying 
opening hours (or addresses, or phone numbers) from a retail company’s website, 
e.g. Tesco. It’s more likely they would pay you for this than sue you.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Kathleen Lu via legal-talk]

I understand the inclination to sarcasm, but your second statement is
simply not a logical one. A state's records of it's plans to build and
maintain roads aren't a map, and a typical map has many things on it other
than just roads. The plans by themselves may not be a protected database
under EU law, but governments discuss quite publicly the costs and efforts
of their GIS departments. "Substantial investment" may not be a black and
white standard, but it is a meaningful one. I hypothesize that Tesco would
have difficulty proving "a substantial investment in either the obtaining,
verification or presentation of the contents." (Note that investment in
creating/setting the hours does not count.)
Best,
Kathleen


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:34 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 18:35, Kathleen Lu via legal-talk <
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> > I do not think that a retail store chain could successfully argue that
> it makes a "substantial investment" in maintaining a list of its own
> stores' hours. Since the store sets the hours, the effort of obtaining,
> verification, and/or presentation should be fairly trivial.
>
>
> Along the same reasoning you could say: “I do not think that a state makes
> a substantial investment in mapping the roads they maintain. Since the
> state plans, builds and maintains the roads it should be fairly trivial for
> them to make a map.”
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Jul 2019, at 18:35, Kathleen Lu via legal-talk 
>  wrote:
> 
> I do not think that a retail store chain could successfully argue that it 
> makes a "substantial investment" in maintaining a list of its own stores' 
> hours. Since the store sets the hours, the effort of obtaining, verification, 
> and/or presentation should be fairly trivial.


Along the same reasoning you could say: “I do not think that a state makes a 
substantial investment in mapping the roads they maintain. Since the state 
plans, builds and maintains the roads it should be fairly trivial for them to 
make a map.”

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Kathleen Lu via legal-talk]

For a single store I believe the answer is yes, since you're
> extracting un-copyrightable facts. But if there are a significant
> number of stores (as in this case), then the information becomes part
> of a database, which is by default protected by database rights (at
> least in the EU). You then can't use a significant amount of the
> information without an appropriate licence. Moreover, you can't safely
> take details from a single store from a chain's website, as there's a
> danger that lots of other mappers might do that independently for
> different stores, resulting in an infringement for OSM as a whole.
>
>
Mateusz posted this to the other thread (Proposal for a revision of
JA:Available Data) which seemed to have ended up on the same topic.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31996L0009#d1e757-20-1
says of the database right

"Member States shall provide for a right for the maker of a database which
shows that there
has been qualitatively and/or quantitatively a substantial investment in
either the obtaining,
verification or presentation of the contents to prevent extraction and/or
re-utilization of the
whole or of a substantial part, evaluated qualitatively and/or
quantitatively, of the contents
of that database."

I do not think that a retail store chain could successfully argue that it
makes a "substantial investment" in maintaining a list of its own stores'
hours. Since the store sets the hours, the effort of obtaining,
verification, and/or presentation should be fairly trivial. (I would also
question the sanity of any store chain making such a claim, since the whole
point of making a list of store hours is available online is to inform
shoppers, and that information being in OSM would only help inform more
shoppers.)

-Kathleen
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 21:18, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> I ask a simple question. May I copy the information of the TESCO Boston 
> Superstore to OSM?
> https://www.tesco.com/store-locator/uk/?bid=2108
>
> This website contains information such as
> - addr=*
> - phone=*
> - opening_hours=*
> - branch=*
>
> The OSM data for this store does not yet contain `phone=*` nor 
> `opening_hours=*`. Can I copy them to OSM?
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/61998754

For a single store I believe the answer is yes, since you're
extracting un-copyrightable facts. But if there are a significant
number of stores (as in this case), then the information becomes part
of a database, which is by default protected by database rights (at
least in the EU). You then can't use a significant amount of the
information without an appropriate licence. Moreover, you can't safely
take details from a single store from a chain's website, as there's a
danger that lots of other mappers might do that independently for
different stores, resulting in an infringement for OSM as a whole.

So for practical, use in OSM, I'd say it's ok to take information from
the public website of an independent store, or a group with up to
around half a dozen outlets. But anything larger, and you'd need to
get permission from the company first.

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Tom Hummel]

> that to cover the entire website was thinking of how it would specifically
> apply to the hours of shops, as opposed to

Maybe slightly OT: would you be inclined to argue the opening hours of
your own shops to be an original collection of facts under the common
law?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Kathleen Lu via legal-talk]

Re the "misleading" license - I do not think that anyone at Tesco who wrote
that to cover the entire website was thinking of how it would specifically
apply to the hours of shops, as opposed to, for example, a phishing site
that attempted to emulate the Tesco site.
The different with the Sacramento open data portal is that clearly they
intended to apply CC-BY to the data. Now, that said, I doubt that the
Sacramento data administrators knew that CC-BY and ODbL are not fully
compatible. This is a case where one might write in and obtain a waiver.


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:04 AM tomoya muramoto 
wrote:

> I understand that dominant opinion is the fact data published on the
> official website is available to OSM.
> It's good for the OSM community to be clear about available data.
>
> I would like to ask again about similar cases that I do not understand
> enough.
>
> Assume that TESCO has published the shop data under the CC BY license.
> Then can I use that data for OSM?
> I think that data is not available because CC BY license is incompatible
> with ODbL as OSMF has stated.
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2017/03/17/use-of-cc-by-data/
>
> However, current data published by TESCO under the "misleading" terms is
> considered as available.
>
> It seems unreasonable for me that open data is not available and
> "misleading" terms data is available.
>
> And another case.
> Many municipalities have published open data under CC BY license. For
> example, Sacramento County has published the location data of the drainage
> pumps under CC BY license.
>
> https://data-sacramentocounty.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/37cc6535316e43dbab8e1942ef1d7313_3
> Can I use this data for OSM without additional permission?
> I think that it is not available because it is incompatible with ODbL.
> However, drainage pumps are managed by Sacramento County, and their names
> and locations are fact data, so they can be considered as available. Which
> is correct?
>
> After this discussion I would like to make an OSM wiki page as an
> agreement by the OSM global community.
> wiki/Available_Data is fine for it?
>
> Thanks.
>
> muramoto
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[OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[tomoya muramoto]

I understand that dominant opinion is the fact data published on the
official website is available to OSM.
It's good for the OSM community to be clear about available data.

I would like to ask again about similar cases that I do not understand
enough.

Assume that TESCO has published the shop data under the CC BY license. Then
can I use that data for OSM?
I think that data is not available because CC BY license is incompatible
with ODbL as OSMF has stated.
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2017/03/17/use-of-cc-by-data/

However, current data published by TESCO under the "misleading" terms is
considered as available.

It seems unreasonable for me that open data is not available and
"misleading" terms data is available.

And another case.
Many municipalities have published open data under CC BY license. For
example, Sacramento County has published the location data of the drainage
pumps under CC BY license.
https://data-sacramentocounty.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/37cc6535316e43dbab8e1942ef1d7313_3
Can I use this data for OSM without additional permission?
I think that it is not available because it is incompatible with ODbL.
However, drainage pumps are managed by Sacramento County, and their names
and locations are fact data, so they can be considered as available. Which
is correct?

After this discussion I would like to make an OSM wiki page as an agreement
by the OSM global community.
wiki/Available_Data is fine for it?

Thanks.

muramoto
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

5 Jul 2019, 22:16 by muramototom...@gmail.com:

> Thanks everyone.
>
> I ask a simple question. May I copy the information of the TESCO Boston 
> Superstore to OSM?
> https://www.tesco.com/store-locator/uk/?bid=2108 
> 
>
> This website contains information such as
> - addr=*
> - phone=*
> - opening_hours=*
> - branch=*
>
> The OSM data for this store does not yet contain `phone=*` nor 
> `opening_hours=*`. Can I copy them to OSM?
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/61998754 
> 
>
I am pretty sure that it is OK (but again I am not a lawyer, not 100% sure etc)

> Note: TESCO claims that the information on the website is protected.
> https://www.tesco.com/help/terms-and-conditions/#Intellectual 
> 
>
And here I am quite certain that this is attempt of Tesco to maliciously 
mislead users.

Many of this claims are misleading and/or absurd.
The most absurd is
"print one copy of such content for your own personal, non-commercial use"

Printing ten or ten million copies of such content for personal use is 
perfectly fine
in a typical civilized country. In fact, by
posting this quote to mailing list I am violating other ridiculous restriction
("but not any server or other storage device connected to a network").

At most Tesco may ban my account on their online shop (not sure whatever even 
that 
would be legal in EU). Plenty of things that are described there as restricted 
are in fact 
completely OK and not violating copyright.

For example of other misleading part
"The content of the Site is protected by copyright, trade marks, database 
and other intellectual property rights."
the same can be said about any other website and many other things, including 
posts on 
this mailing list. But they write in way that suggests that this laws means 
that they are allowedto make restriction listed there.

Note that typically there are some laws allowing limited use of copyrighted 
materials,
with severe differences depending on location

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing 

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use 

- in Japan such rule is supposedly called something like "private use 
exceptions",
supposed to be described at
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A7%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A6%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9#.E6.97.A5.E6.9C.AC
 


But generally you may use materials for wider than Tesco presents here.

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[OSM-legal-talk] Copy information from official business website (WAS: Proposal for a revision of JA:Available Data)

[tomoya muramoto]

Thanks everyone.

I ask a simple question. May I copy the information of the TESCO Boston
Superstore to OSM?
https://www.tesco.com/store-locator/uk/?bid=2108

This website contains information such as
- addr=*
- phone=*
- opening_hours=*
- branch=*

The OSM data for this store does not yet contain `phone=*` nor
`opening_hours=*`. Can I copy them to OSM?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/61998754

If I can use them, remote mapping of TESCO stores may be possible using
address data and satellite imagery. (Boston Superstore has already been
mapped on OSM, so remote mapping is not necessary in this case)

Note: TESCO claims that the information on the website is protected.
https://www.tesco.com/help/terms-and-conditions/#Intellectual

I do not know if these data are legally available or not, but I think it is
safe not to use these data for OSM.

Thanks.

muramoto tomoya
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