[OSM-legal-talk] New contributing agency

2013-11-14 Thread Fernando Trebien 
Hello everyone,

I've recently contacted an institute (LABGEO) within a public university
here in Brazil (UFRGS) and they've shown interest in contributing to OSM
their data, which includes roads, land contours, vegetation data, maybe
even geological data (it is a pretty extensive database). They would also
like to be listed as a contributor here in this page:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

Though there may be a few details left to check yet, they've stated so far
that the dada is already regularly used for commercial purposes by many
Brazilian companies at zero cost. So here's my question: what kind of
statement do they have to provide so that they get listed in that page?
What questions does the statement need to answer?

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New contributing agency

2013-11-19 Thread Simon Poole 

Hi Fernando

I gather from your questions that they are currently not distributing
the data under a (well-)known licence or on any other documented terms?

In any case before spending to much effort on trying to nail down the
legal side, you really need to clarify if this is suitable data for OSM
and if yes, if there is a process that will result in something that is
digestible by the Brazilian community. So I would strongly suggest at
least starting with the steps outlined in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines 

As to being mentioned on http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright , there
is no written in stone policy who gets on that page, in the past it
seems to have been used as an extra bargaining chip in negotiation.
Being listed there does not in any way indicate that the contributions
are or were more important than contributions from the individuals and
organisations listed here
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors . Clearly there is a
practical desire to keep the list on the copyright page as short as
possible. Down the road we may have better mechanisms to build the
attribution pages and then that may change. So for now it would depend
on the outcome of any necessary negotiations.

Simon




Am 14.11.2013 18:58, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I've recently contacted an institute (LABGEO) within a public
> university here in Brazil (UFRGS) and they've shown interest in
> contributing to OSM their data, which includes roads, land contours,
> vegetation data, maybe even geological data (it is a pretty extensive
> database). They would also like to be listed as a contributor here in
> this page: http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
>
> Though there may be a few details left to check yet, they've stated so
> far that the dada is already regularly used for commercial purposes by
> many Brazilian companies at zero cost. So here's my question: what
> kind of statement do they have to provide so that they get listed in
> that page? What questions does the statement need to answer?
>
> -- 
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409 
>
> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New contributing agency

2013-11-20 Thread Fernando Trebien 
Thank you, Simon. You are correct, the LABGEO cartographers I have talked
to don't seem to have access to any formal statement (contracts, laws,
etc.) that ensures the data is truly "public domain" as they say. It is
also possible that existing written statements would not clearly answer
essential questions concerning ODbL compatibility. Considering some other
problems (such as uninformed and uninterested Brazilian authorities, and
lack of court decisions that would help us interpret the law), I believe
that getting them to write down exactly what we need them to agree with
would be safer for us and also more productive for us and for them.

Since these authorities often erroneously equate "public domain" with
"free" or "open" (not even knowing the differences between the two), I
believe the questions for them should be:
- how they expect their attribution to be visible to end users through OSM;
and
- whether the data can be used for commercial purposes.

I don't know if these questions are enough, so I would like to hear your
opinions and suggestions.

Finally, we have already studied the data and found the conversion rather
easy to do. Importing would probably require some coordinated effort, but
for now it is the legal aspect that completely prevents us from beginning.
Also, I think it would be fairer if the copyright page included a linked to
the wiki page you mentioned, so that all contributors enjoy some similar
level of visibility.

Regards,

Fernando


On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> Hi Fernando
>
> I gather from your questions that they are currently not distributing the
> data under a (well-)known licence or on any other documented terms?
>
> In any case before spending to much effort on trying to nail down the
> legal side, you really need to clarify if this is suitable data for OSM and
> if yes, if there is a process that will result in something that is
> digestible by the Brazilian community. So I would strongly suggest at least
> starting with the steps outlined in
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>
> As to being mentioned on http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright , there
> is no written in stone policy who gets on that page, in the past it seems
> to have been used as an extra bargaining chip in negotiation. Being listed
> there does not in any way indicate that the contributions are or were more
> important than contributions from the individuals and organisations listed
> here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors . Clearly there is a
> practical desire to keep the list on the copyright page as short as
> possible. Down the road we may have better mechanisms to build the
> attribution pages and then that may change. So for now it would depend on
> the outcome of any necessary negotiations.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> Am 14.11.2013 18:58, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
>
>  Hello everyone,
>
> I've recently contacted an institute (LABGEO) within a public university
> here in Brazil (UFRGS) and they've shown interest in contributing to OSM
> their data, which includes roads, land contours, vegetation data, maybe
> even geological data (it is a pretty extensive database). They would also
> like to be listed as a contributor here in this page:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
>
>  Though there may be a few details left to check yet, they've stated so
> far that the dada is already regularly used for commercial purposes by many
> Brazilian companies at zero cost. So here's my question: what kind of
> statement do they have to provide so that they get listed in that page?
> What questions does the statement need to answer?
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing 
> listlegal-talk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>
>
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>
>


-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New contributing agency

2013-11-20 Thread Jaakko Helleranta.com 
Same situation in Nicaragua. Many here say: Oh, it's all public domain! ..
where they merely mean, We have it and can give it to you. Or: It's online
and no one will protest (immediately at least) if you put it in OSM.

The written permission (for which there are existing forms) is critical --
and I'm afraid that you'll likely not get that...

Wishing you all the best, of course.

Cheers,
-Jaakko

--
jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua)
* Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 * http://about.me/jaakkoh


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Fernando Trebien <
fernando.treb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you, Simon. You are correct, the LABGEO cartographers I have talked
> to don't seem to have access to any formal statement (contracts, laws,
> etc.) that ensures the data is truly "public domain" as they say. It is
> also possible that existing written statements would not clearly answer
> essential questions concerning ODbL compatibility. Considering some other
> problems (such as uninformed and uninterested Brazilian authorities, and
> lack of court decisions that would help us interpret the law), I believe
> that getting them to write down exactly what we need them to agree with
> would be safer for us and also more productive for us and for them.
>
> Since these authorities often erroneously equate "public domain" with
> "free" or "open" (not even knowing the differences between the two), I
> believe the questions for them should be:
> - how they expect their attribution to be visible to end users through
> OSM; and
> - whether the data can be used for commercial purposes.
>
> I don't know if these questions are enough, so I would like to hear your
> opinions and suggestions.
>
> Finally, we have already studied the data and found the conversion rather
> easy to do. Importing would probably require some coordinated effort, but
> for now it is the legal aspect that completely prevents us from beginning.
> Also, I think it would be fairer if the copyright page included a linked to
> the wiki page you mentioned, so that all contributors enjoy some similar
> level of visibility.
>
> Regards,
>
> Fernando
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Fernando
>>
>> I gather from your questions that they are currently not distributing the
>> data under a (well-)known licence or on any other documented terms?
>>
>> In any case before spending to much effort on trying to nail down the
>> legal side, you really need to clarify if this is suitable data for OSM and
>> if yes, if there is a process that will result in something that is
>> digestible by the Brazilian community. So I would strongly suggest at least
>> starting with the steps outlined in
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>>
>> As to being mentioned on http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright , there
>> is no written in stone policy who gets on that page, in the past it seems
>> to have been used as an extra bargaining chip in negotiation. Being listed
>> there does not in any way indicate that the contributions are or were more
>> important than contributions from the individuals and organisations listed
>> here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors . Clearly there is
>> a practical desire to keep the list on the copyright page as short as
>> possible. Down the road we may have better mechanisms to build the
>> attribution pages and then that may change. So for now it would depend on
>> the outcome of any necessary negotiations.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 14.11.2013 18:58, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
>>
>>  Hello everyone,
>>
>> I've recently contacted an institute (LABGEO) within a public university
>> here in Brazil (UFRGS) and they've shown interest in contributing to OSM
>> their data, which includes roads, land contours, vegetation data, maybe
>> even geological data (it is a pretty extensive database). They would also
>> like to be listed as a contributor here in this page:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
>>
>>  Though there may be a few details left to check yet, they've stated so
>> far that the dada is already regularly used for commercial purposes by many
>> Brazilian companies at zero cost. So here's my question: what kind of
>> statement do they have to provide so that they get listed in that page?
>> What questions does the statement need to answer?
>>
>> --
>> Fernando Trebien
>> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>>
>> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
>> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>>
>>
>> ___
>> legal-talk mailing 
>> listlegal-talk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> legal-talk mailing list
>> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
>

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New contributing agency

2013-11-20 Thread Fernando Trebien 
It's a very similar situation indeed, Jaakko. Here such forms would take
years to get processed sometimes, it all depends on the good will of who
receives the request. I've noticed that this "will" is more responsive when
the person knows how to answer, or at least knows who to delegate the
request to (specially if this person is not a very specialized busy top
manager), so simple and easy questions are more effective at getting a
clear answer faster.

Wish you luck as well!

Fernando

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com <
jaa...@helleranta.com> wrote:

> Same situation in Nicaragua. Many here say: Oh, it's all public domain! ..
> where they merely mean, We have it and can give it to you. Or: It's online
> and no one will protest (immediately at least) if you put it in OSM.
>
> The written permission (for which there are existing forms) is critical --
> and I'm afraid that you'll likely not get that...
>
> Wishing you all the best, of course.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jaakko
>
> --
> jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 
> (Nicaragua)
> * Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 *
> http://about.me/jaakkoh
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Fernando Trebien <
> fernando.treb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Simon. You are correct, the LABGEO cartographers I have talked
>> to don't seem to have access to any formal statement (contracts, laws,
>> etc.) that ensures the data is truly "public domain" as they say. It is
>> also possible that existing written statements would not clearly answer
>> essential questions concerning ODbL compatibility. Considering some other
>> problems (such as uninformed and uninterested Brazilian authorities, and
>> lack of court decisions that would help us interpret the law), I believe
>> that getting them to write down exactly what we need them to agree with
>> would be safer for us and also more productive for us and for them.
>>
>> Since these authorities often erroneously equate "public domain" with
>> "free" or "open" (not even knowing the differences between the two), I
>> believe the questions for them should be:
>> - how they expect their attribution to be visible to end users through
>> OSM; and
>> - whether the data can be used for commercial purposes.
>>
>> I don't know if these questions are enough, so I would like to hear your
>> opinions and suggestions.
>>
>> Finally, we have already studied the data and found the conversion rather
>> easy to do. Importing would probably require some coordinated effort, but
>> for now it is the legal aspect that completely prevents us from beginning.
>> Also, I think it would be fairer if the copyright page included a linked to
>> the wiki page you mentioned, so that all contributors enjoy some similar
>> level of visibility.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Fernando
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Fernando
>>>
>>> I gather from your questions that they are currently not distributing
>>> the data under a (well-)known licence or on any other documented terms?
>>>
>>> In any case before spending to much effort on trying to nail down the
>>> legal side, you really need to clarify if this is suitable data for OSM and
>>> if yes, if there is a process that will result in something that is
>>> digestible by the Brazilian community. So I would strongly suggest at least
>>> starting with the steps outlined in
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>>>
>>> As to being mentioned on http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright , there
>>> is no written in stone policy who gets on that page, in the past it seems
>>> to have been used as an extra bargaining chip in negotiation. Being listed
>>> there does not in any way indicate that the contributions are or were more
>>> important than contributions from the individuals and organisations listed
>>> here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors . Clearly there is
>>> a practical desire to keep the list on the copyright page as short as
>>> possible. Down the road we may have better mechanisms to build the
>>> attribution pages and then that may change. So for now it would depend on
>>> the outcome of any necessary negotiations.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 14.11.2013 18:58, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
>>>
>>>  Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I've recently contacted an institute (LABGEO) within a public university
>>> here in Brazil (UFRGS) and they've shown interest in contributing to OSM
>>> their data, which includes roads, land contours, vegetation data, maybe
>>> even geological data (it is a pretty extensive database). They would also
>>> like to be listed as a contributor here in this page:
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
>>>
>>>  Though there may be a few details left to check yet, they've stated so
>>> far that the dada is already regularly used for commercial purposes by many
>>> Brazilian companies at zero cost. So here's my question: what kind of
>>> statement do they h

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New contributing agency

2013-11-21 Thread Simon Poole 

(IMHO naturally) From a content pov, an agreement or a statement from a
contributing agency should be based roughly on the terms laid down in
the contributor terms
(http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms).   They
should mainly grant the OSMF the rights listed in (2) and it would be
nice if they would make a statement to the fact that they actually own
the necessary rights in the data to do so.

Simon
 
Am 20.11.2013 20:28, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
> It's a very similar situation indeed, Jaakko. Here such forms would
> take years to get processed sometimes, it all depends on the good will
> of who receives the request. I've noticed that this "will" is more
> responsive when the person knows how to answer, or at least knows who
> to delegate the request to (specially if this person is not a very
> specialized busy top manager), so simple and easy questions are more
> effective at getting a clear answer faster.
>
> Wish you luck as well!
>
> Fernando
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com
> mailto:jaa...@helleranta.com>> wrote:
>
> Same situation in Nicaragua. Many here say: Oh, it's all public
> domain! .. where they merely mean, We have it and can give it to
> you. Or: It's online and no one will protest (immediately at
> least) if you put it in OSM.
>
> The written permission (for which there are existing forms) is
> critical -- and I'm afraid that you'll likely not get that...
>
> Wishing you all the best, of course.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jaakko 
>
> --
> jaa...@helleranta.com  * Skype:
> jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua) * Voice(mail) /
> SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 
> * http://about.me/jaakkoh
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Fernando Trebien
> mailto:fernando.treb...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Simon. You are correct, the LABGEO cartographers I
> have talked to don't seem to have access to any formal
> statement (contracts, laws, etc.) that ensures the data is
> truly "public domain" as they say. It is also possible that
> existing written statements would not clearly answer essential
> questions concerning ODbL compatibility. Considering some
> other problems (such as uninformed and uninterested Brazilian
> authorities, and lack of court decisions that would help us
> interpret the law), I believe that getting them to write down
> exactly what we need them to agree with would be safer for us
> and also more productive for us and for them.
>
> Since these authorities often erroneously equate "public
> domain" with "free" or "open" (not even knowing the
> differences between the two), I believe the questions for them
> should be:
> - how they expect their attribution to be visible to end users
> through OSM; and
> - whether the data can be used for commercial purposes.
>
> I don't know if these questions are enough, so I would like to
> hear your opinions and suggestions.
>
> Finally, we have already studied the data and found the
> conversion rather easy to do. Importing would probably require
> some coordinated effort, but for now it is the legal aspect
> that completely prevents us from beginning. Also, I think it
> would be fairer if the copyright page included a linked to the
> wiki page you mentioned, so that all contributors enjoy some
> similar level of visibility.
>
> Regards,
>
> Fernando
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
>
> Hi Fernando
>
> I gather from your questions that they are currently not
> distributing the data under a (well-)known licence or on
> any other documented terms?
>
> In any case before spending to much effort on trying to
> nail down the legal side, you really need to clarify if
> this is suitable data for OSM and if yes, if there is a
> process that will result in something that is digestible
> by the Brazilian community. So I would strongly suggest at
> least starting with the steps outlined in
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines 
>
> As to being mentioned on
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright , there is no
> written in stone policy who gets on that page, in the past
> it seems to have been used as an extra bargaining chip in
> negotiation. Being listed there does not in any way
> indicate that the contributions are or were more important
> than contributions from the individuals and organisations
> listed here
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/C