Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 13.05.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Tom Lee:
..
> 
> Nope. I was referring to collective databases in the ODbL which are
> roughly the equivalent of collective works in early versions of CC
> licenses and only require the OSM derived part to be subject to the ODbL
> terms.
> 
> 
> This is the part I think I could use help understanding. My impression
> is that a collective database can contain ODbL and non-ODbL content
> side-by-side. Are you saying that CC-BY 4.0 makes this impossible
> because its attribution requirements would attach to the non-ODbL
> content as well?
--

Roughly yes. Though my concern is not mainly about the requirement
itself, it is simply that the concept of a collective database seems to
be incompatible with the current text of CC by 4.0.

Now I know how I would weasel myself out of this if I was CC, but I'm
not, so lets see what they say.

Simon



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Tom Lee]

Apologies for the delay in my response.


> Any sucess/feedback?


Not from their general inquiry address; I've put another line in via a
shared contact.

I've been meaning to ask if you could clarify a bit further, and/or correct
my understanding of the situation.

You wrote:

The actual requirement is in 4(c):
> "You must comply with the conditions in Section 3(a) if You Share all or
> a substantial portion of the contents of the database." which is a bit
> more than just 3(a)1,


3(a) also includes subsections 2, 3 and 4. My message discussed 2; 3 and 4
reads as follows:

If requested by the Licensor, You must remove any of the information
> required by Section 3(a)(1)(A) to the extent reasonably practicable.



> If You Share Adapted Material You produce, the Adapter's License You apply
> must not prevent recipients of the Adapted Material from complying with
> this Public License.


"the extent reasonably practicable" sounds to me like it could be satisfied
by editing http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors.

3(a)(4) is a pass-through of the attribution requirement, but the
flexibility afforded in 3(a)(2) means that OSM's current practices should
accommodate it.

Nope. I was referring to collective databases in the ODbL which are
> roughly the equivalent of collective works in early versions of CC
> licenses and only require the OSM derived part to be subject to the ODbL
> terms.


This is the part I think I could use help understanding. My impression is
that a collective database can contain ODbL and non-ODbL content
side-by-side. Are you saying that CC-BY 4.0 makes this impossible because
its attribution requirements would attach to the non-ODbL content as well?

Tom
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 06.05.2015 um 16:42 schrieb Tom Lee:
...
> 
> I think the vast quantity of CC-BY licenses data is too important a
> resource to ignore given the slightness of this limitation, but I
> understand the need for conservatism. One of Creative Commons' US
> affiliates is located at a law school here in Washington, DC -- I've
> reached out to see if they might be able to help.

Any sucess/feedback?

Simon



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 06.05.2015 um 16:42 schrieb Tom Lee:
..
> 
> I think things are getting a little mixed up. The ODbL refers to
> "Derivative Databases" and "Produced Works" but not "Derivative Works"
> (well, except one, but I think that line exists because of poor
> drafting, not a deliberate choice). 
> 
> I *think* you are gesturing toward "Produced Works" and how the full
> ODbL does not attach to them, and conflating this idea with CC-BY's
> "Adapted Material". ODbL Produced Works lose license restrictions; CC-BY
> Adapted Material may gain them. Perhaps this contrast is confusing the
> situation? Deeming something to be CC-BY "Adapted Material" gives the
> creator *more* control over its license status, not less, because CC-BY
> is not designed with virality in mind. This is implicitly affirmed in
> 3(a)(4), which mentions the application of other licenses to Adapted
> Material.

Nope. I was referring to collective databases in the ODbL which are
roughly the equivalent of collective works in early versions of CC
licenses and only require the OSM derived part to be subject to the ODbL
terms.

> 
> The portion of the license following the "and" in your excerpt simply
> points to CC-BY's attribution requirements, which must follow the
> contributed content through into the Adapted Material. These attribution
> requirements are extremely generous:
> 
> You may satisfy the conditions in Section 3(a)(1)
>  in any
> reasonable manner based on the medium, means, and context in which
> You Share the Licensed Material.
> 
> 
> I think the vast quantity of CC-BY licenses data is too important a
> resource to ignore given the slightness of this limitation, but I
> understand the need for conservatism. One of Creative Commons' US
> affiliates is located at a law school here in Washington, DC -- I've
> reached out to see if they might be able to help.

The actual requirement is in 4(c):

"You must comply with the conditions in Section 3(a) if You Share all or
a substantial portion of the contents of the database." which is a bit
more than just 3(a)1,

Simon



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Tom Lee]

>
> My, very conservative, reading of CC-BY 4.0 would indicate that it has
> additional issues over just the attribution problem for databases.
> CC-BY 4.0 contains the following (4.b):
> "if You include all or a substantial portion of the database contents in
> a database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights, then the
> database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights (but not its
> individual contents) is Adapted Material; and"
> "Adapted Material" is essentially a derivative Work, or using ODbL terms
> a derivative database. The CC-BY terms would however seem to make it
> impossible to create an ODbL collective database from an OSM dataset
> including CC-BY material.


I think things are getting a little mixed up. The ODbL refers to
"Derivative Databases" and "Produced Works" but not "Derivative Works"
(well, except one, but I think that line exists because of poor drafting,
not a deliberate choice).

I *think* you are gesturing toward "Produced Works" and how the full ODbL
does not attach to them, and conflating this idea with CC-BY's "Adapted
Material". ODbL Produced Works lose license restrictions; CC-BY Adapted
Material may gain them. Perhaps this contrast is confusing the situation?
Deeming something to be CC-BY "Adapted Material" gives the creator *more*
control over its license status, not less, because CC-BY is not designed
with virality in mind. This is implicitly affirmed in 3(a)(4), which
mentions the application of other licenses to Adapted Material.

The portion of the license following the "and" in your excerpt simply
points to CC-BY's attribution requirements, which must follow the
contributed content through into the Adapted Material. These attribution
requirements are extremely generous:

You may satisfy the conditions in Section 3(a)(1)
>  in any
> reasonable manner based on the medium, means, and context in which You
> Share the Licensed Material.


I think the vast quantity of CC-BY licenses data is too important a
resource to ignore given the slightness of this limitation, but I
understand the need for conservatism. One of Creative Commons' US
affiliates is located at a law school here in Washington, DC -- I've
reached out to see if they might be able to help.

Tom
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Jukka Rahkonen]

Simon Poole  writes:


> CC-BY 4.0 contains the following (4.b):
> 
> "if You include all or a substantial portion of the database contents in
> a database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights, then the
> database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights (but not its
> individual contents) is Adapted Material; and"
> 
> "Adapted Material" is essentially a derivative Work, or using ODbL terms
> a derivative database. The CC-BY terms would however seem to make it
> impossible to create an ODbL collective database from an OSM dataset
> including CC-BY material.

Hi,

I do not quite understand what I'd have if I import OSM data into one table
and CC-BY 4.0 data into another table in the database. If the whole database
is then Adapted Material and under CC-BY but "not its individual contents",
does it mean that I can truncate OSM tables and deliver the database as
such? Or if I import CC-BY and OSM data into the same table can I do "delete
from table where source='OSM'" before delivering that as a CC-BY 4.0 database?

-Jukka Rahkonen-




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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Simon Poole]

Just as a clarification, versions of CC-by prior to 4.0 do not have this
issue, however do not address the issue of database rights at all.

All of the CC-BY licences -do- have the further issue, just as the ODbL,
that they do not allow sub-licensing (which I consider a defect),
however that aspect does not seem to be very high on the priority list
of anybody.

Simon

Am 06.05.2015 um 11:25 schrieb Simon Poole:
> 
> 
> Am 05.05.2015 um 11:27 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
> ...
>> My question was does CC-BY 4.0 have the same issue? Could CC-BY 4.0
>> data be included in OSM.
> ...
> 
> My, very conservative, reading of CC-BY 4.0 would indicate that it has
> additional issues over just the attribution problem for databases.
> 
> CC-BY 4.0 contains the following (4.b):
> 
> "if You include all or a substantial portion of the database contents in
> a database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights, then the
> database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights (but not its
> individual contents) is Adapted Material; and"
> 
> "Adapted Material" is essentially a derivative Work, or using ODbL terms
> a derivative database. The CC-BY terms would however seem to make it
> impossible to create an ODbL collective database from an OSM dataset
> including CC-BY material.
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
> 
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> 



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 05.05.2015 um 11:27 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
...
> My question was does CC-BY 4.0 have the same issue? Could CC-BY 4.0
> data be included in OSM.
...

My, very conservative, reading of CC-BY 4.0 would indicate that it has
additional issues over just the attribution problem for databases.

CC-BY 4.0 contains the following (4.b):

"if You include all or a substantial portion of the database contents in
a database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights, then the
database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights (but not its
individual contents) is Adapted Material; and"

"Adapted Material" is essentially a derivative Work, or using ODbL terms
a derivative database. The CC-BY terms would however seem to make it
impossible to create an ODbL collective database from an OSM dataset
including CC-BY material.

Simon



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

Just found http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission
it has hints about what extra permissions we require.

On 5 May 2015 at 19:27, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> I'm bringing up a conversation from talk-au pertaining to what
> additional permissions we need from content owners in order to include
> or use as a source to derive further information from their CC-BY
> licensed data in OSM.
>
> Any advice is very much appreciated.
>
> On 16 April 2015 at 15:26, Paul Norman  wrote:
>> On 4/15/2015 6:01 AM, Ross wrote:
>>> The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and conditions 
>>> require permission to add data not owned by the contributor.
>>
>> This is incorrect. An appropriate license is sufficient. Some obviously 
>> appropriate licenses are CC0, PDDL, ODC-BY and the ODbL itself.
>>
>> The issue is that CC BY (and BY-SA) 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0 require a form of 
>> attribution that is not practical for most map uses, so we need permission. 
>> This would have been true even without the license change, as we were never 
>> meeting the requirements of those versions of CC BY.
>>
>> We have permission for many Australian sources, and I believe for all CC BY 
>> Australian sources that were in use at the time of the license change.
>
> My question was does CC-BY 4.0 have the same issue? Could CC-BY 4.0
> data be included in OSM.
>
> Secondly, what specific permission do we need to include CC-BY 3.0 or
> 4.0 data in OSM? Do we essentially need the data supplier to agree to
> CC0 plus attribution in some specific form requested by OSMF? Is there
> a sample legal agreement or text for this?
>
> The release of government spatial data in Australia is continuing to
> expand to more and more agencies who are releasing under CC-BY, and it
> would be great if we had an OSMF approved license agreement or such we
> can present to these agencies so that hopefully these CC-BY datasets
> can be potentially used in some form in OSM.

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[OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

I'm bringing up a conversation from talk-au pertaining to what
additional permissions we need from content owners in order to include
or use as a source to derive further information from their CC-BY
licensed data in OSM.

Any advice is very much appreciated.

On 16 April 2015 at 15:26, Paul Norman  wrote:
> On 4/15/2015 6:01 AM, Ross wrote:
>> The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and conditions require 
>> permission to add data not owned by the contributor.
>
> This is incorrect. An appropriate license is sufficient. Some obviously 
> appropriate licenses are CC0, PDDL, ODC-BY and the ODbL itself.
>
> The issue is that CC BY (and BY-SA) 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0 require a form of 
> attribution that is not practical for most map uses, so we need permission. 
> This would have been true even without the license change, as we were never 
> meeting the requirements of those versions of CC BY.
>
> We have permission for many Australian sources, and I believe for all CC BY 
> Australian sources that were in use at the time of the license change.

My question was does CC-BY 4.0 have the same issue? Could CC-BY 4.0
data be included in OSM.

Secondly, what specific permission do we need to include CC-BY 3.0 or
4.0 data in OSM? Do we essentially need the data supplier to agree to
CC0 plus attribution in some specific form requested by OSMF? Is there
a sample legal agreement or text for this?

The release of government spatial data in Australia is continuing to
expand to more and more agencies who are releasing under CC-BY, and it
would be great if we had an OSMF approved license agreement or such we
can present to these agencies so that hopefully these CC-BY datasets
can be potentially used in some form in OSM.

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