Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data

[Simon Poole]

The LWG is working on a statement wrt CC-BY 4.0 compatibility and is in
direct contact with Creative Commons.

I suspect that we will have something in latest a couple of weeks,
including a template waiver/statement that we will need for such sources.

Simon

Am 09.01.2017 um 03:07 schrieb cleary:
> After previous discussion in the legal-talk and talk-au lists, I made
> further approaches to the Australian Department of Prime Minister and
> Cabinet regarding access to data published on data.gov.au including the
> PSMA Administrative Boundaries.
>
> Today I received a reply. The full letter is reproduced below.
>
> In particular, note the statement that "we can confirm that CC BY 4.0
> allows OpenStreetMap to apply its own licence (in this case, ODbL) to
> its product. We can also confirm that attribution on the OpenStreetMap
> contributors page would be sufficient to meet the attribution
> requirements of the licence." 
>
> While I don't seek to extrapolate this statement to all CC BY 4.0
> licensed data from other sources, it seems clear that this statement
> from the authorised person in Australia's Department of Prime Minister
> and Cabinet, would be sufficient for us to use the relevant Australian
> Government data in OSM. With OSM supported by such a statement, I find
> it difficult to see how the Australian Government (or anyone else) could
> later try to say we do not have the necessary permission to use the
> data.
>
> In my correspondence to the Government, I referred to the Contributors
> page of the wiki, and I would reasonably take the response to refer to
> this page.
>
> I had previously undertaken that any response from the Australian
> authorities would be submitted to the legal-talk list for 
> consideration. I will defer posting to talk-au list until I have
> feedback from legal-talk.
>
>
> ___
>
>
>
> Australian Government
> Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet
>
> Ref: EC16-002146
>
>
>
> Mr Michael Cleary
> OpenStreetMap
> ..
> (private address removed)
>
>
>
> Dear Sir
>
> Thank you for your letter of 21 November 2016 regarding the publishing
> of government data on OpenStreetMap. The Secretary has asked me to reply
> on his behalf. Public data policy matters fall within my
> responsibilities.
>
> The current policy on licensing for government data is covered by the
> Guidelines on Licensing Public Sector Information for Australian
> Government Entities, which is published by the Department of
> Communication and the Arts. This policy states that public sector
> information should be released free of charge under a Creative Commons
> 'BY' 4.0 licence (CC BY 4.0). The CC BY 4.0 licence is an open licence
> that is intended to enable the use, reuse and commercialisation of open
> government data. Consistent with this policy, the PSMA Administrative
> Boundaries have been published under this licensing framework.
>
> Due to the large number of datasets on data.gov.au and. in some
> instances, obligations on the government due to its licensing
> arrangements with its data suppliers, we are unable to amend the licence
> terms, or provide exemptions on an individual basis.
>
> However, we can confirm that CC BY 4.0 allows OpenStreetMap to apply its
> own licence (in this case, ODbL) to its product. We can also confirm
> that attribution on the OpenStreetMap contributors page would be
> sufficient to meet the attrtibution requirements of the licence.
>
> We understand that licence terms can be complex and legalistic. There
> are several processes underway across government to improve data
> accessibility and address any barriers to use. The Productivity
> Commission's draft report on its Inquiry into Data Availability and Use
> discusses how public sector licensing arrangements can have limitations
> on the use of government data. Specifically, chapter three discusses
> issues relevant to your request. The draft report can be downloaded from
> http://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/current/data-access/draft. The Final
> Report is due for release in March next year, and the Government will
> respond in due course to the recommendations put forward.
>
> The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet is also undertaking public
> consultation to gather information on the datasets Australians want
> access to, and any issues they face in using them, including licensing.
> I encourage you to contribute to this consultation through the online
> survey at
> http://thesource.dss.gov.au/unlocking-australias-high-value-data/survey_tools/unlocking-australias-high-value-data-survey/
>
> I hope this information has been of assistance.
>
>
> Yours sincerely
>
>
> Steven Kennedy
> 22 December 2016
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 30 giu 2016, alle ore 13:15, Christoph Hormann 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> The whole idea to me seems completely impractical.


+1
what we might do: add an auto generated list of all osm user pseudonyms with at 
least one edit at the bottom of the osm.org/contributors page, and update from 
time to time.

cheers,
Martin 
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 30 June 2016, Tobias Wendorff wrote:
>
> Tons of others? There aren't many datasources, which will be CC-BY or
> equal.

You can bet that once this was implemented every marginally narcissistic 
mapper would stop genuine mapping and start releasing his/her work 
under CC-BY...

Like most of the other suggestions to change the license this would mean 
abolishing the basic social contract behind OSM.

> But okay, let's convince the authorities to bury their "BY" somewhere
> on our osm.org page :)

Last time i checked i was able to vote for the authorities of my 
choosing...

Otherwise - if they don't want their data in OSM - their loss.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Tobias Wendorff]

Am Do, 30.06.2016, 13:15 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
>
> It would also be extremely unfair towards the normal individual mappers
> because their attribution (which is currently the main one
> behind 'OpenStreetMap Contributors') would be buried among tons of
> others.

Tons of others? There aren't many datasources, which will be CC-BY or equal.
So when I'm taking an extract of Dortmund f.e., there would by
"OpenStreetMap"
and "GeoBasis.NRW".

But okay, let's convince the authorities to bury their "BY" somewhere on
our osm.org page :)


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 30 June 2016, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> it isn't easy to do this properly, you would have to analyse the data
> and make judgements. A script could do it, but it would have to be a
> very complex analysis and you would have to put a lot of judgement
> into the rules of this script. Two different scripts would likely
> make different judgements.

No matter how you do this - you would make it impossible to show a world 
map based on OSM data since the screen would be completely filled with 
attributions and no space left for a map to display.

It would also be extremely unfair towards the normal individual mappers 
because their attribution (which is currently the main one 
behind 'OpenStreetMap Contributors') would be buried among tons of 
others.

The whole idea to me seems completely impractical.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-06-30 12:47 GMT+02:00 Tobias Wendorff :

> > Do you always have to attribute once something got imported, even if
> there
> > a no (visual) traces of this import any more? E.g. you could say that all
> > following contributions built on what was there at a time.
>
> Sorry, but that's a very hard discussion and English isn't my native
> language.



I was only insisting because you had written "A script can handle this and
output the source of the data imported into this area. Nobody would
need to analyse the data on its own."

it isn't easy to do this properly, you would have to analyse the data and
make judgements. A script could do it, but it would have to be a very
complex analysis and you would have to put a lot of judgement into the
rules of this script. Two different scripts would likely make different
judgements.

Cheers,
Martin
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Tobias Wendorff]

Am Do, 30.06.2016, 12:31 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> E2
> v1 import 1 node, amenity=place_of_worship, name=Foo
> v2 move the node significantly (e.g. 30 km)

Don't import faulty data, SCNR :)

> Do you always have to attribute once something got imported, even if there
> a no (visual) traces of this import any more? E.g. you could say that all
> following contributions built on what was there at a time.

Sorry, but that's a very hard discussion and English isn't my native
language.
I don't think, there's any interest from OSM's point of view to make a
new license and make it compatible to anything else.

So it's rather pointless to start a detailed discussion about this is on
a low-traffic mailinglist :)


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-06-29 23:58 GMT+02:00 Tobias Wendorff :

> Am Mi, 29.06.2016, 23:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> > Is there still need to attribute the original creator?
>
> In my opinion that's what CC-BY is all about. You're allowed to change
> it, but you still need to tell the name of the licensee.



Examples:
E1
v1 import 1 node, amenity=place_of_worship, name=Foo
v2 move the node slightly

in this case, I think is clear that you would have to attribute


E2
v1 import 1 node, amenity=place_of_worship, name=Foo
v2 move the node significantly (e.g. 30 km)

in this case I think you rather wouldn't continue to attribute the original
dataset


E3
v1 import 1 node, amenity=place_of_worship, name=Foo
v2 copy tags, delete the node, draw a way, paste the tags

do you have to attribute?
What if the name was corrected to "Foobaz" in step 2?
Is the situation different if you don't delete the node but make it part of
the new way?


E4
v1 import 1 node, amenity=place_of_worship, name=Foo
v2 remove tags and add amenity=fuel, name=Foo23, move the node 100 m

do you still have to attribute?


Do you always have to attribute once something got imported, even if there
a no (visual) traces of this import any more? E.g. you could say that all
following contributions built on what was there at a time.

Cheers,
Martin
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Simon Poole]

Am 29.06.2016 um 23:26 schrieb Tobias Wendorff:
> Am Mi, 29.06.2016, 22:58 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>> just that this list becomes very long, see
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors
> You wouldn't see "data.gov.au" in a German map extract of course.
> I just wasn't creative enough to add data from one spatial area :)
>
> "(C) OpenStreetMap, Vermessungs- und Katasteramt Dortmund,
> Amt für Geoinformation, Liegenschaften und Kataster Bochum"
>
> That's common practice in the real world.
>
>
Only if you are talking about proprietary data vendors: google, here and
so on, they essentially have only one level of down stream and close
control over every one of their data consumers. In the case of google
they further have complete control over any applications using the data.

In contrast we produce open data, as essentially the only player, that
is used in many different ways and the down stream consumer might be
very very very many steps away from us, requiring and technically
implementing extensive attribution of 3rd parties down stream is simply
completely impractical IMHO (for example you would have to maintain the
attribution data in every format you convert OSM data to).

Simon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Tobias Wendorff]

Am Mi, 29.06.2016, 23:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> Is there still need to attribute the original creator?

In my opinion that's what CC-BY is all about. You're allowed to change
it, but you still need to tell the name of the licensee.

It's common GIS practice:
When you've got data from catastral office and you're editing it, you
write: "(C) catastral office of $city, edited by $user". That's
nothing new: *BY* has always been there, just *CC* is new.

Let's assume CC-BY does work for geospatial data(bases), it's easier
to discuss in this level.



___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 29 giu 2016, alle ore 23:26, Tobias Wendorff 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Oh come on, that's no valid argument. A script can handle this and
> output the source of the data imported into this area. Nobody would
> need to analyse the data on its own.


it is far from trivial, because people modify data in OSM. You would have to 
decide for every object and all its history. Maybe version 1 of a way was 
imported but then a different user deleted a node from it. Is there still need 
to attribute the original creator? What if after some time none of the original 
nodes is still in the way (or in the original place), would you have to 
attribute to him anyway? etc. etc., this was just an example with geometry, 
tags also can play a role.


cheers,
Martin 
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Tobias Wendorff]

Am Mi, 29.06.2016, 22:58 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> just that this list becomes very long, see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors

You wouldn't see "data.gov.au" in a German map extract of course.
I just wasn't creative enough to add data from one spatial area :)

"(C) OpenStreetMap, Vermessungs- und Katasteramt Dortmund,
Amt für Geoinformation, Liegenschaften und Kataster Bochum"

That's common practice in the real world.

> Should everyone who renders a map have to analyze which imported data
> is  used in the work? Why not listing the osm usernames that
> contributed as well?

Oh come on, that's no valid argument. A script can handle this and
output the source of the data imported into this area. Nobody would
need to analyse the data on its own.


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 29 giu 2016, alle ore 22:49, Tobias Wendorff 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> "(C) OpenStreetMap, with subsets of data.gov.au, BKG Germany & xyz"


just that this list becomes very long, see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors

Should everyone who renders a map have to analyze which imported data is used 
in the work? Why not listing the osm usernames that contributed as well?

cheers,
Martin 
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Tobias Wendorff]

Am Di, 28.06.2016, 12:51 schrieb Simon Poole:
> We cannot restrict how our data is used outside of the
> ODbL terms. While we might not be adding personal information,
> downstream that may well happen.

Let's change ODbL and allow different BY-attributes. That would solve
much of problems. Actually, it's the common practice in science and
commercial data:

"(C) OpenStreetMap, with subsets of data.gov.au, BKG Germany & xyz"

CC-BY still allows any mapper to change the data and to do whatever
he/she wants.


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[cleary]

Thanks for that advice. I will draft an email over the next
couple of days.
 
 
 
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016, at 08:51 PM, Simon Poole wrote:
> The explicit permission that we received was for data released
> directly by the Australian government, it is unclear if that could
> apply to data that they have licensed from a third party for
> distribution which seems to be the case here.
> CC by 4.0 reduced the requirements on attribution compared to earlier
> versions and people have argued that the indirect attribution
> (OpenStreetMap -> osm.org -> original datasource) might be enough to
> satisfy them, however I would suggest getting explicit permission from
> either PSMA or
>
> Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet
>   02 6271 5111
>  spat...@pmc.gov.au
>
>  to be on the safe side.
> The further issue I see, is with the additional privacy principles
> that must be followed. We cannot restrict how our data is used outside
> of the ODbL terms. While we might not be adding personal information,
> downstream that may well happen.
> A possible workaround might be for either PSMA or pmc.gov.au to
> identify which datasets are touchy and not import/use them (and lift
> the additional terms for the remaining datasets).
> Simon
>
> Am 28.06.2016 um 08:54 schrieb cleary:
>> After brief discussion on the talk-au list, advice is requested from
>> the legal-talk list.  The PSMA Admin Boundaries Data is released by
>> the Australian Government at
>> https://data.gov.au/dataset/psma-administrative-boundariesIt is
>> provided under CC-BY-4.0 licence with a condition relating to privacy
>> principles.  OSM has received explicit permission to use some
>> Australian Government Data. See
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission
>> Some items published at data.gov.au under CC-BY 4.0 have already been
>> listed on the Contributors page of the wiki but there is concern that
>> the above-mentioned explicit permission may be insufficient for the
>> data. The wiki contributors page includes the statement "Incorporates
>> or developed using Administrative Boundaries ©PSMA Australia Limited
>> licensed by the Commonwealth of Australia under Creative Commons
>> Attribution 4.0 International licence (CC BY 4.0)." but it is not
>> sourced or referenced so that its significance is unclear.  The
>> Boundaries Data is also provided with the condition that "Users must
>> only use the data in ways that are consistent with the Australian
>> Privacy Principles issued under the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth)."  It
>> seems to me that OSM does not collect or use any personal information
>> about identifiable individuals that would cause a problem but someone
>> else may have a different view.  Can we please have advice on whether
>> the previously received explicit permission is adequate to permit use
>> of the PSMA Admin Boundaries Data and whether there is any concern in
>> relation to the Australian Privacy Principles.
>> ___ legal-talk mailing
>> list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>>
>
> _
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> Email had 1 attachment:


>  * signature.asc  1k (application/pgp-signature)
 
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Australian Government Data from data.gov.au

[Simon Poole]

The explicit permission that we received was for data released directly
by the Australian government, it is unclear if that could apply to data
that they have licensed from a third party for distribution which seems
to be the case here.

CC by 4.0 reduced the requirements on attribution compared to earlier
versions and people have argued that the indirect attribution
(OpenStreetMap -> osm.org -> original datasource) might be enough to
satisfy them, however I would suggest getting explicit permission from
either PSMA or

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet
02 6271 5111
spat...@pmc.gov.au 

to be on the safe side.

The further issue I see, is with the additional privacy principles that
must be followed. We cannot restrict how our data is used outside of the
ODbL terms. While we might not be adding personal information,
downstream that may well happen.

A possible workaround might be for either PSMA or pmc.gov.au to identify
which datasets are touchy and not import/use them (and lift the
additional terms for the remaining datasets).

Simon


Am 28.06.2016 um 08:54 schrieb cleary:
> After brief discussion on the talk-au list, advice is requested from the
> legal-talk list.
>
> The PSMA Admin Boundaries Data is released by the Australian Government
> at https://data.gov.au/dataset/psma-administrative-boundariesIt is
> provided under CC-BY-4.0 licence with a condition relating to privacy
> principles. 
>
> OSM has received explicit permission to use some Australian Government
> Data. See
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission
>  
>
> Some items published at data.gov.au under CC-BY 4.0 have already been
> listed on the Contributors page of the wiki but there is concern that
> the above-mentioned explicit permission may be insufficient for the
> data. The wiki contributors page includes the statement "Incorporates or
> developed using Administrative Boundaries ©PSMA Australia Limited
> licensed by the Commonwealth of Australia under Creative Commons
> Attribution 4.0 International licence (CC BY 4.0)." but it is not
> sourced or referenced so that its significance is unclear.
>
> The Boundaries Data is also provided with the condition that "Users must
> only use the data in ways that are consistent with the Australian
> Privacy Principles issued under the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth)."  It seems
> to me that OSM does not collect or use any personal information about
> identifiable individuals that would cause a problem but someone else may
> have a different view.
>
> Can we please have advice on whether the previously received explicit
> permission is adequate to permit use of the PSMA Admin Boundaries Data
> and whether there is any concern in relation to the Australian Privacy
> Principles. 
>
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk