Galtieri posters!!!!!!!!!! (was Re: [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia)
En relación a Re: [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia, el 3 Oct 00, a las 15:26, Macdonald Stainsby dijo: > > No doubt you would have simply called for the Argentine working > > class to capitulate to their bourgeoisie and embrace the regime in an unholy > > pact against imperialism > > > > Owen > I would not have called for the workers to wander through the > streets with Galtieri posters. Well, _that_ would have been a strange proposition! How do you say, rolling on the floor and laughing? Just imagine the sight! It would be as difficult to have British workers to wander through the streets with Churchill posters as it would have been to have Argentinian workers to wander through the streets with Galtieri posters. [Excuse me, there is a little creature on my desk with a mischievous smile, trying to catch my attention. I have an idea that this creature wants to tell me something] This creature happened to be a slanderer and a liar. Imagine it told me that mean English workers _actually_ did something in the same line??? That there were workers who even supported Thatcher against us Oh, please, can't believe it. > I also wouldn't expect them to listen > to me either (I was seven at the time), while I preached from my > Canadian pulpit. > But if you had preached the gospel you propose, not only they would have listened to you, they would have also greeted you gladly as "one of us", and opened up a place for you among their ranks. Argentinians (and Argentinian workers too) are quite sensitive to people who, in the First World, understand our plight and join in our march through history. Children, even children seven years old, sometimes are taken to mass demonstrations here. Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
AWL (was [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia)
Sean Matgamma's group? The ones who supported Israel and opposed the Irish liberation struggle? (I'm using the past tense because I have no knowledge of them since my stay in London in 1993.) The only question is, do they work for MI5 or for MI6? - Aaron >Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 20:27:11 +0100 >From: Owen Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Comrade Nestor, > > Unfortunately I fear you sinking to the level of debate of those of the >"revolutionary" Left here who actually refused to oppose imperialism against >Yugoslavia (sorry, let's be fair, many of such people didn't support it >either, but then did Kautsky not abstain? - other than the AWL, who I >frankly despise, who actually supported the imperialist war). >Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 20:35:21 +0100 >From: Owen Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply to Macdonald Stainsby, at [EMAIL PROTECTED], who wrote on the 3/10/2000 >3:06: > >> ?? AWL > > Alliance for Workers' Liberty. > > Owen ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia
> No doubt you would have simply called for the Argentine working class to > capitulate to their bourgeoisie and embrace the regime in an unholy pact > against imperialism > > Owen I would have hoped that the Argentines had blocked together to win the war and leave the British Empire even closer to it's ultimate decline. Period. I would not have called for the workers to wander through the streets with Galtieri posters. I also wouldn't expect them to listen to me either (I was seven at the time), while I preached from my Canadian pulpit. Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia
Reply to Macdonald Stainsby, at [EMAIL PROTECTED], who wrote on the 3/10/2000 3:06: > ?? AWL Alliance for Workers' Liberty. Owen ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia
> Haha. I'm looking forward to the answer to this one, Owen. The workers of > England suffered a tremendous setback, no doubt. The workers of Argentina > suffered something an imperialist country cannot, the jack boot of > imperialism and the total loss of sovereignty. > > There is a reason that the IRA and their sympathisers were quick to scrawl > on the walls: "Viva Argentina!". If it were not for the chauvinism whipped up amongst the working class here, Thatcher, who was third in the opinion polls at the time, would have been a nasty nightmare that ended in 1983. The working class movement would not have been crushed and atomised. And what happens to the working class in an imperialist country is of world-historic importance. The world today would be a different place were it not for that damned war. They did not suffer a total loss of sovereignty. That would entail the total occupation of their country by British imperialism. Argentina is an oppressed country that was defeated by British imperialism, a world-historic defeat in itself. But at least their working class movement, which was suppressed under the junta, could rebuild itself. The collapse of that deeply reactionary regime was a great reason for the Argentine working class to rejoice, frankly. Thousands of its finest militants had been butchered by it. No doubt you would have simply called for the Argentine working class to capitulate to their bourgeoisie and embrace the regime in an unholy pact against imperialism Owen ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Owen's unconscious and the British Fleet (was Re: [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia)
Owen Jones has sent so long a mail that I will have to skip over most of it. I am short of time, so that I will concentrate on the paragraphs he wrote on Argentina, with a display of ignorant confidence that, honestly, I would not have expected in him. This will have to wait, however, because now I am hurried. But will answer. One thing, only: Owen has said toads and snakes of Peronism. This is consistent with the British Fleet helping the 1955 gorillas against Perón. Facts. Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia
> That does not mean by the way that I am not in hindsight firmly against the > Malvinas War. Indeed I have a much bigger reason to be bitter than you since > it was a far greater catastrophe for our working class than yours in the > end. > Haha. I'm looking forward to the answer to this one, Owen. The workers of England suffered a tremendous setback, no doubt. The workers of Argentina suffered something an imperialist country cannot, the jack boot of imperialism and the total loss of sovereignty. There is a reason that the IRA and their sympathisers were quick to scrawl on the walls: "Viva Argentina!". Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia
- other than the AWL, who I > frankly despise, who actually supported the imperialist war). ?? AWL Thank you. Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: reply to Nestor on Yugoslavia
Comrade Nestor, Unfortunately I fear you sinking to the level of debate of those of the "revolutionary" Left here who actually refused to oppose imperialism against Yugoslavia (sorry, let's be fair, many of such people didn't support it either, but then did Kautsky not abstain? - other than the AWL, who I frankly despise, who actually supported the imperialist war). Why do I say you are stopping to such levels? Because they denounce me as an apologist of Milosevic and a rampant Serb chauvinist for my defence of Yugoslavia against imperialism. They seem to believe that the Belgrade regime is a greater enemy than their bourgeoisie at home. Often they even completely revise Marxism by effectively denying imperialism (so easy to do for those comfortable Western leftists who are not its victims), stating that Serbia is not oppressed, that there was genocide in Kosovo and even speaking of Serbian "proto-imperialism". "Milosevic lover" they spit at me over a pint of beer. So please don't call me a social-chauvinist, since during the imperialist war against Yugoslavia I fought against it and have had many a vicious polemic with "socialists" here on the matter. I'm tempted to forward you an email from a comrade of the Committee for Peace in the Balkans which I'm involved with; he may even be a stronger, stauncher supporter of Milosevic than yourself, but I still bloc with him, whilst I do not bloc with those who effectively supported their own bourgeoisie, such as AWL. And I have had the most spectacular and explosive debates with a comrade called Ian Donovan who thinks I am a puppet of Milosevic and Sesijl, so spare me the venom that paints me as a social-chauvinist, which is truly ironic. My record on my own imperialist bourgeoisie is impeccable, I assure you. I never capitulate. Every war, every blockade they engage in, and I am ready screaming from the other side of the barricades. And would it surprise you, dear comrade Nestor, since you believe that British communists working in the Labour party is repulsive and a capitulation to ones own bourgeoisie, that those revolutionaries working with some link to the LP were the staunchest opponents of the imperialist war, whilst those who, with r-r-revolutionary rhetoric denounced any working within what they dismissed as an out-and-out bourgeois party, were much more likely to capitulate? In other words, those with greater contact with the working class were most staunchly against the British bourgeoisie. You are wrong on the opposition. They were not those who denounced the intervention in Kosovo. Vuk Draskovic of the Serbian Renewal Party, who desires to restore the Serbian monarchy and first suggested in 1990 stripping Kosovar Albanians of their passports, walking them to the border and "waving them goodbye", gave the "Albanian fascist terrorists" as his pretext for joining the ruling coalition. I have seen a photograph of Rankovic standing proudly with a rifle in his hand in Kosovo. These proud defenders of the fatherland are those who prostituted themselves to imperialism, Nestor. I see no evidence of that from the trade unions and workers' organisations who sent out pleas for international solidarity during the war, who bravely pledged solidarity with their Kosovar brothers and sisters. You are now attempting to find the programmatic location of Milosevic. This is irrelevant. I must say I find it ironic that comrades have singled out the Croatian regime from that of Serbia as being much worse for its Nazi sympathies, whilst Peron frequently praised the Nazis and mixed the rhetoric of the far Right and far Left, whilst turning Argentina into the world's biggest refuge for Nazis. Oh why even bother. Milosevic entered into coalition with the Serbian Radical Party, formerly known as the Serbian Chetnik Movement. There is nobody in Serbia who is as counterrevolutionary as this. They have links with similar groups in France (the Front Nationale of Jean-Marie Le Pen) and Russia (the Liberal Democratic Party of Vladimir Zhirinovsky). Not a day goes by when they do not denounce Serbia's "communist past" and its former "communist" rulers who so "oppressed" Serbia. Its leaders were all imprisoned under Stalinism, and frankly, for a change, very rightly so. They detailed plans to expel the Kosovar Albanian population years ago. Sesijl memorably called for Croats' necks to be slit with rusty knives. And yes, these were members of the government. Whilst also the cult, power and prestige of the Orthodox Church, that bastion of reaction, used to be the most devout supporters of Slobo. What about Slobo's destruction of the old institutions of the [degenerate] workers' state, whether they be the vehicle of the bureaucracy, the former Communist Party [or League], the regime structure, the icons of the former state, etc. Or his selling off of industry to former bureaucrats and Greek and Italian capitalists. Or the fact that his regime has massive links to the blac
