Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:11:44 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

> I have just spent all afternoon wrestling with themes. 

All is now well.  I have something that looks great on both Windows and 
Ubuntu.  Except for a few tweaks the result is just as before.  

This comment 
 
in #764  contains the 
new, much simpler, @theme node. Read the comment for more details.

I plan to use this theme on both Windows and Ubuntu.  I'll be updating 
Leo's screen shot as soon as I tweak it some more.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Terry Brown  wrote:

>
​​
I just want to point out that the
​ ​
problem identified here is @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as a
settings manager, and not the theme generation machinery per se.

I have just spent all afternoon wrestling with themes.  I agree with you
that the substitution mechanism is ok.
​T
here is a gotcha lurking. Commenting out a setting that uses an @value:

  /* setting = @value */

​will
fail mysteriously
 if one forgets and puts a comment in the definition of value.​


​
​
> Just hoping we can add switchable themes without losing anything like
​ ​
substitution of settings into stylesheets, which I don't think is part
​ ​
of the proximal problem here.

Don't worry.  The goal is to create pre-built themes that can be loaded
from a menu, that is, from a command.

We can do that without necessarily changing
​*​*
*anything *about the stylesheet machinery or even the trees used to create
the stylesheets.

> Also that I don't think @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as
​ ​
a settings manager is a bad thing, it's just awkward for newbies seeing
​ ​
they want to do it before they've had any chance to get the Leo way :)

Yeah, but I
​ grow ​
weary
​figuring ​
out how things dereference. In some cases I'm just hard-coding constants.
​  To be sure, this is a symptom of bad design of the settings, but it's
easy to go down that road.​
​ And the brain-dead solarized names don't help any either.​


In short, the fancy machinery will stay in place, but I'm not sure I will
use it.

​Right now I am stumped by something that is harmless in a white theme but
madly irritating in a dark theme.  Somehow there is (if I see clearly) a
2-pixel white/light border/margin/SOMETHING at the bottom of each Log pane
widget.  I have tried everything that I can think of to color that area
red, but no joy.  It just stays white, which is the worst possible color in
a dark theme. It would be great if someone could solve the mystery.  You
would think a default style on QWidget would do the trick, but not yet.

I'm starting to wonder whether there is a widget that isn't a subclass of
QWidget...

And I wouldn't bet my life that the stylesheet machinery correctly handles
overrides correctly.  I'm doing nothing fancy, afaik, but things aren't
always overriding as I expect.

Which all goes to show that we need decent, pre-built themes :-)

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:40:28 -0600
"Edward K. Ream"  wrote:

> Leo *must* have a library of pre-built themes that users can choose
> without knowing *anything* about @settings trees and
> myLeoSettings.leo.

This sounds like a good idea - I just want to point out that the
problem identified here is @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as
a settings manager, and not the theme generation machinery per se.

Just hoping we can add switchable themes without losing anything like
substitution of settings into stylesheets, which I don't think is part
of the proximal problem here.

Also that I don't think @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as
a settings manager is a bad thing, it's just awkward for newbies seeing
they want to do it before they've had any chance to get the Leo way :)

Kind of like having a French English dictionary with the only index in
French, when all you speak is English.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:45 AM, rengel  wrote:

>> the python_terminal plugin
​[is now]​
visible in the plugins menu and in the Log pane.

> Does this imply that every outline opened has its own Python console?

​At present, the answer is yes.  A global console is conceivable, but does
not seem necessary.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Zoom.Quiet  wrote:

> > 1. Better theme setting and pre-built themes
​ ​
#766

> this is the biggest profit task;

​Just to underscore how wretched the present situation is, it took about 10
minutes for me to figure out how to enable Chris George's new scheme.

I finally did figure it out, but this just shows that it is no good
pretending that the present way is acceptable just because we don't change
themes much.  That's emphatically not true.

Leo *must* have a library of pre-built themes that users can choose without
knowing *anything* about @settings trees and myLeoSettings.leo.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Zoom.Quiet  wrote:

​>​
> 1. Better theme setting and pre-built themes

> suggest base Sublime Text 3 's
​ ​
Spacegray/base16-eighties.dark.tmTheme -> predawn-DEV.sublime-theme

​Thanks. ​
I've made a note of this suggestion in #766.

​Edward​

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[rengel]

>
>
> ​> ​
> If the Python console should be used, make it visible in the menu; don't 
> bury it in the documentation.
>
> ​Actually, my intention is to make key features visible *directly*, not 
> just in menus.​
>
 

> I am going to enable the python_terminal plugin today, in both master and 
> devel.  Once that is done, the plugin will be visible in the plugins menu 
> *and 
> in the Log pane*.
>

Does this imply that every outline opened has its own Python console? If 
you put the console in the Log pane, IMHO, you might create a 'hierarchy 
clash'. As I understand the Leo UI, the three panes (Outline, Log, Editor) 
always *belong to one and the same* outline. A Python console that serves 
all outlines opened would break this design.

Again, PyCharm has a solution for this problem:

In PyCharm, if you hover above the left-most button in the status bar, a 
list of tools is presented (among them a Python console). If chosen, the 
Python console is opened below the other panes, with its *own vertical 
toolbar* to the left.

Reinhard

>

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 11:27:59 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:

*2. Better support for markdown*
>
> #767: Add markdown command similar to rst3 command 
> . I want to move 
> Leo's docs to markdown.
>
> #763: Use html comments to support @file x.md 
> . This will allow 
> structured markdown files.
>

Scrivener  supports 
MultiMarkdown  for technical 
writing. The Wikipedia article on Markdown mentions MultiMarkdown as well 
as other variants in its discussion of standardization efforts 
. Once one has more 
than one standard, there is no standard - which one to use? 

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 12:47 AM, rengel  wrote:

​> ​
you might want to study the user interface of PyCharm (
https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/), especially their wording of menu
entries and their 'Tools' menu.

​Good idea.  It's on my list of things to do immediately.
​

​> ​
If the Python console should be used, make it visible in the menu; don't
bury it in the documentation.

​Actually, my intention is to make key features visible *directly*, not
just in menus.​

I am going to enable the python_terminal plugin today, in both master and
devel.  Once that is done, the plugin will be visible in the plugins menu *and
in the Log pane*.

Terry and I are debating whether this should be moved to Leo's core, or
remain a plugin.  The issue, I think, is whether any related commands could
be "baked in" to Leo's menus, or created dynamically by the plugin.  I'm
investigating, but there is so much going on right now that it may take a
few days.

Terry and I are also debating whether the valuespace plugin suffices.  Imo,
it does not, precisely because its way-cool features are hidden.  I am
investigating embedding an ipython terminal into Leo. That would make all
of ipython's cool features *visible* as well as available.  There's a big
difference.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:24 PM, lewis  wrote:

A recent discussion by Terry of the valuespace plugin helped me grasp just
> one basic idea of what it did.
> Terry noted "The vs-eval-block command from the valuespace plugin gives
> Leo a cell like behavior." This seems to be hinting that these cells are
> similar to the Jupyter cells. If this is true, may I propose 2 ideas...
>
> 1. Can the output be directed to a vr type pane? Rather than just output
> to log pane.
>

​Anything is possible, and Leo already has facilities for redirecting
output.
​


> 2. Is it worth considering a rename of the valuespace plugin? Valuespace
> doesn't give an immediate hint of what the plugin does. I think basic
> marketing concepts are important and encourage users to take the plunge
> with a product feature.
>

​Perhaps, but it would not clarify matters enough.

I am investigating putting an ipython pane into Leo
​. This might
enhance/replace the python_terminal plugin.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[rengel]

If you haven't done so already, you might want to study the user interface 
of PyCharm (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/), especially their wording 
of menu entries and their 'Tools' menu.
Leo's menu entries are way too much developer-oriented. 
They express, what's available, not what can be done. As a user I'm more 
interested in what I can do.

If the Python console should be used, make it visible in the menu; don't 
bury it in the documentation.

Reinhard



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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[lewis]

A recent discussion by Terry of the valuespace plugin helped me grasp just 
one basic idea of what it did.
Terry noted "The vs-eval-block command from the valuespace plugin gives Leo 
a cell like behavior." This seems to be hinting that these cells are 
similar to the Jupyter cells. If this is true, may I propose 2 ideas... 

1. Can the output be directed to a vr type pane? Rather than just output to 
log pane.
2. Is it worth considering a rename of the valuespace plugin? Valuespace 
doesn't give an immediate hint of what the plugin does. I think basic 
marketing concepts are important and encourage users to take the plunge 
with a product feature.

I'm not a coder so it may just be that the plugin is limited to evaluation, 
and can't extend to display/rendering/graphing.

Regards
Lewis

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 3:27:59 AM UTC+11, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Leo probably *already has* the features you want.  Alas, these features 
> can be hidden from casual sight. This is driving me crazy :-)
>
> *Hidden feature 2: Live evaluation of objects*
>
> How many times has Terry reminded me and others about the valuespace 
> plugin? This plugin creates live objects, which can be 
> introspected/auto-completed, as in jupyter notebooks.
>
> *Action*: #761: Make the valuespace plugin more visible 
> . Not sure how, but 
> this item is worth any amount of work.
>
> All comments and suggestions welcome.
>

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Satish Goda  wrote:

>
> I totally agree with your observation and a through overview of Leo is in
> order to really sell it in an unified way.
>
> Following are my thoughts on making this happen
>


> 1. Create a document or presentation called "The Essence of Leo" or "Leo
> at a Glance" (For presentation http://leoeditor.com/slides.html is a good
> example)
>
2. Create updated videos showing each item being presented in Step 1
> ​
>

​ ​Imo, adding demos to CheatSheet.leo and quickstart.leo should suffice.​

​

> ​3. When a new feature is added in Leo, right away document following Step
> 1 and Step 2
>

​I distrust anything that complicates maintenance.  Sure, documenting
new/improved features is important, but in my experience mandating fancier
actions is fruitless.​

4. Since Leo supports Markdown and Rst share Leo on those community forums
> as well.
>

​A good idea.  Leo's rst3 command is perhaps a bit complex, but it is
extremely useful.  Ditto for the upcoming corresponding markdown command.

Having said that, I have my hands full.  Any discussion or announcements
you might make would be appreciated!

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Satish Goda]

Hi Edward.

I totally agree with your observation and a through overview of Leo is in 
order to really sell it in an unified way.

Following are my thoughts on making this happen
1. Create a document or presentation called "The Essence of Leo" or "Leo at 
a Glance" (For presentation http://leoeditor.com/slides.html is a good 
example)
2. Create updated videos showing each item being presented in Step 1
3. When a new feature is added in Leo, right away document following Step 1 
and Step 2
4. Since Leo supports Markdown and Rst share Leo on those community forums 
as well.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Satish.

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:27:59 AM UTC-8, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Leo probably *already has* the features you want.  Alas, these features 
> can be hidden from casual sight. This is driving me crazy :-)
>
> My top priority is to make it obvious to everyone, newbies and devs alike, 
> what Leo can do.  Happily, this is a *much easier* task than some of the 
> grand projects we have been discussing lately. A few weeks work should make 
> a *huge* difference.
>
> This post lists hidden features and enhancements (actions items) that will 
> make a big difference.
>
> This is a long post, but concise.  Please study it carefully. As always, 
> comments are welcome and encouraged.
>
> *Leo's hidden features*
>
> *Hidden feature 1: Leo's Python console*
>
> Someone recently said he uses another editor because it has a python 
> console. How sad is that! The python_terminal.py plugin puts such a console 
> in a Log pane tab,* with full support for Leonine features*.
>
> *Action*: #760: Move python_console plugin into Leo's core. 
>  This feature must 
> be made much more obvious.
>
> *Hidden feature 2: Live evaluation of objects*
>
> How many times has Terry reminded me and others about the valuespace 
> plugin? This plugin creates live objects, which can be 
> introspected/auto-completed, as in jupyter notebooks.
>
> *Action*: #761: Make the valuespace plugin more visible 
> . Not sure how, but 
> this item is worth any amount of work.
>
> *Hidden feature 3: Sophisticated rendering*
>
> Leo's *existing* markdown rendering is extremely powerful. In particular, 
> *you 
> can embed html into markdown*. The  element can insert svg graphics 
> and movies in Leo's rendering pane.  In particular, the style attribute 
> allows virtually unlimited flexibility! For example, open Leo in the 
> leo-editor folder, put this in any node, and show the rendering pane with 
> Alt-0, vr-toggle:
>
> @language md
>
> 
>
> Line 1
>
> Line 2
>
> Line 3
>
> Line 4
>
> *Action*: #762: quickstart.leo & CheatSheet.leo should demo Leo's features 
> . Including markdown 
> rendering.
>
> *Hidden feature 4: Good looking themes*
>
> The screen shot on Leo's home page is amateurish. It should have a dark 
> theme and smallish fonts. Something like atom dark.  Leo's existing theme 
> machinery can do this, but see #766 
>  below...
>
> *Action*: #764: Improve the screen shot on Leo's home page 
> .
>
> *Other hidden features*
>
> Leo could use better "implicit" documentation in the Cmds menu and perhaps 
> elsewhere.
>
> *Action*: #765: Improve the Cmds menu 
> .
>
> *New projects*
>
> Here are two smallish projects that would greatly enhance Leo. Each might 
> take a week.
>
> *1. Better theme setting and pre-built themes*
>
> #766: Create a Themes menu and simplify theme settings 
> . Don't panic.  
> Existing Theme settings will remain in place.
>
> *2. Better support for markdown*
>
> #767: Add markdown command similar to rst3 command 
> . I want to move 
> Leo's docs to markdown.
>
> #763: Use html comments to support @file x.md 
> . This will allow 
> structured markdown files.
>
> *Summary*
>
> - Some of Leo's most powerful features are hidden. They must be revealed.
>
> - Two, smallish, *urgent* new items will add better support for themes 
> and markdown.
>
> *It doesn't have to be difficult.* The work described here is 
> straightforward, yet no other project is even *remotely *as important as 
> these items. All work can probably be done in a month or two, but this 
> uber-project is worth *any* amount of work. All items mentioned here have 
> a target of 5.7.1.
>
> All comments and suggestions welcome.
>
> Edward
>

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To post 

The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

Leo probably *already has* the features you want.  Alas, these features can 
be hidden from casual sight. This is driving me crazy :-)

My top priority is to make it obvious to everyone, newbies and devs alike, 
what Leo can do.  Happily, this is a *much easier* task than some of the 
grand projects we have been discussing lately. A few weeks work should make 
a *huge* difference.

This post lists hidden features and enhancements (actions items) that will 
make a big difference.

This is a long post, but concise.  Please study it carefully. As always, 
comments are welcome and encouraged.

*Leo's hidden features*

*Hidden feature 1: Leo's Python console*

Someone recently said he uses another editor because it has a python 
console. How sad is that! The python_terminal.py plugin puts such a console 
in a Log pane tab,* with full support for Leonine features*.

*Action*: #760: Move python_console plugin into Leo's core. 
 This feature must be 
made much more obvious.

*Hidden feature 2: Live evaluation of objects*

How many times has Terry reminded me and others about the valuespace 
plugin? This plugin creates live objects, which can be 
introspected/auto-completed, as in jupyter notebooks.

*Action*: #761: Make the valuespace plugin more visible 
. Not sure how, but 
this item is worth any amount of work.

*Hidden feature 3: Sophisticated rendering*

Leo's *existing* markdown rendering is extremely powerful. In particular, *you 
can embed html into markdown*. The  element can insert svg graphics 
and movies in Leo's rendering pane.  In particular, the style attribute 
allows virtually unlimited flexibility! For example, open Leo in the 
leo-editor folder, put this in any node, and show the rendering pane with 
Alt-0, vr-toggle:

@language md



Line 1

Line 2

Line 3

Line 4

*Action*: #762: quickstart.leo & CheatSheet.leo should demo Leo's features 
. Including markdown 
rendering.

*Hidden feature 4: Good looking themes*

The screen shot on Leo's home page is amateurish. It should have a dark 
theme and smallish fonts. Something like atom dark.  Leo's existing theme 
machinery can do this, but see #766 
 below...

*Action*: #764: Improve the screen shot on Leo's home page 
.

*Other hidden features*

Leo could use better "implicit" documentation in the Cmds menu and perhaps 
elsewhere.

*Action*: #765: Improve the Cmds menu 
.

*New projects*

Here are two smallish projects that would greatly enhance Leo. Each might 
take a week.

*1. Better theme setting and pre-built themes*

#766: Create a Themes menu and simplify theme settings 
. Don't panic.  
Existing Theme settings will remain in place.

*2. Better support for markdown*

#767: Add markdown command similar to rst3 command 
. I want to move Leo's 
docs to markdown.

#763: Use html comments to support @file x.md 
. This will allow 
structured markdown files.

*Summary*

- Some of Leo's most powerful features are hidden. Most action items will 
reveal Leo's existing features.

- Two, smallish, *urgent* new items will add better support for themes and 
markdown.

*It doesn't have to be difficult.* The work described here is 
straightforward, yet no other project is even *remotely *as important the 
items discussed here. All work can probably be done in a month or two, but 
this uber-project is worth *any* amount of work. All items mentioned here 
have a target of 5.7.1.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

Edward

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