Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
> On 10/24/19 4:54 PM, Paul Rogers wrote: > >> Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? > > I think so. wget is just the tip of an iceberg. I do/would not let ANY > > (B)LFS system have any network connection until it was suitably prepared, > > "armored-up". So IPTABLES would have to come first, then my firewall, > > neither of which are part of LFS. > > Problem with that is LFS does setup a network connection. No, it doesn't. In 7.5 it shows how to setup the common metwork configuration files. YOU have to decide if you want to do that at this time, even so, no problem there. There is no network connection unless and until YOU select the network drivers in the kernel build options, and there is no instruction for you to do so in 8.3. LFS doesn't setup a network connection, YOU do! Building an LFS system is educational, but isn't for newbies. You are expected to have experience, to be a qualified sysadmin knowing what is appropriate to do in building your own system. An experienced sysadmin may well not know how to do that step by step, and that's the educational experience the book provides. If you DON'T know what you're doing and why, and put an unprotected system on the internet, then you are responsible for, and deserve, everything that happens! Putting an unprotected system on the internet is not adviced by anyone, anywhere! Look at the tests that have been done for how many minutes an unprotected system survives before it is pwned. > > I spend the extra time before running the first things in Ch. 4 to plan out > > what I'm going to want, packages and versions, and make my build scripts. > > I download those immediately, while I'm protected by my host system. Then > > when I finish LFS, I begin BLFS with everything I need. Everything is > > stand-alone until I have about 20 packages installed. Generally far beyond. > > Still should have a convenient method to get all those to the host you > are building on. You did when you got the LFS packages, presumably with a well protected host, so what's the problem with getting the BLFS packages? BLFS provides wget lists to get them if you look at it before running off before being ready. -- Paul Rogers paulgrog...@fastmail.fm Rogers' Second Law: "Everything you do communicates." (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 10/24/19 4:54 PM, Paul Rogers wrote: Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? I think so. wget is just the tip of an iceberg. I do/would not let ANY (B)LFS system have any network connection until it was suitably prepared, "armored-up". So IPTABLES would have to come first, then my firewall, neither of which are part of LFS. Problem with that is LFS does setup a network connection. I spend the extra time before running the first things in Ch. 4 to plan out what I'm going to want, packages and versions, and make my build scripts. I download those immediately, while I'm protected by my host system. Then when I finish LFS, I begin BLFS with everything I need. Everything is stand-alone until I have about 20 packages installed. Generally far beyond. Still should have a convenient method to get all those to the host you are building on. Trent -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
> Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? I think so. wget is just the tip of an iceberg. I do/would not let ANY (B)LFS system have any network connection until it was suitably prepared, "armored-up". So IPTABLES would have to come first, then my firewall, neither of which are part of LFS. I spend the extra time before running the first things in Ch. 4 to plan out what I'm going to want, packages and versions, and make my build scripts. I download those immediately, while I'm protected by my host system. Then when I finish LFS, I begin BLFS with everything I need. Everything is stand-alone until I have about 20 packages installed. Generally far beyond. -- Paul Rogers paulgrog...@fastmail.fm Rogers' Second Law: "Everything you do communicates." (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 10/24/19 1:06 AM, Xi Ruoyao wrote: On 2019-10-24 05:34 +, DJ Lucas wrote: On 10/23/2019 9:51 PM, Ken Moffat wrote: On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 08:46:06PM -0500, Trent wrote: Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? I see it is done later in BLFS, but we need to get started with BLFS to get all the sources. Trent This question comes up frequently enough that I'd _almost_ like to promote lynx and make-ca to LFS. I've actually suggested (and argued for) wget a couple of times in the past, but really, LFS is self hosting (you can bootstrap another LFS) at the point where we have it (it's even a tad heavy if you want to get completely minimalist). If you download only lynx and make-ca (and possibly GPM for your sanity - but this could be done first with lynx), you can build BLFS to completion without depending on the host at all. It is a little uncomfortable for a short while, but perfectly doable. Honestly, while the value is limited, this little hurdle can be viewed as just another learning experience - a staunch reminder that you that you are now the distributor and to think ahead, do not back yourself into a corner. :-/ I think there could be a section in Chapter 6 which could mention about being aware if you want to continue to build on with BLFS, and show below applications are recommended, but not required. Then it can be mentioned why they may be needed in the future. I feel It would certainly be better for learning, and maybe realize the limitations of the basic build Trent There are many packages which various people require to get a usable system. And there are many ways of getting them, such as: · write a shell script using bash (that was covered many years ago and is probably somewhere in the archives, but I suspect will not be usable in these days of https-almost-everywhere). The above requires bash-2.04 or above and the tcp raw device. You can also use telnet for plain text files over HTTP. Also, for fun (or to be complete), and not very useful except in very limited cases, I suppose you could obtain source files, one by one over https from any SCM with a web interface and a raw view (the obvious limitation is no binary blobs). :-) I do exactly this for make-ca's download of the certdata.txt (I only need one file). Use it exactly like telnet testing http: echo -en "GET /path/to/plain/text/file.extn HTTP/1.1\nHost: host\n\n | \ openssl s_client -ign_eof -connect host:443 2>/dev/null > file.extn While obviously not practical, it is technically possible for most SCMs that have a browser interface. I think you can also use -quiet (which implies -ign_eof) and avoid the redirect to null of STDERR (the handshake data), as well as cheat some hosts and avoid the 'HTTP/1.0\nHost: host' part of the echo. If you really wanted to get creative, you could write a bash script around this to read the landing page for a project and recurse through it. Feel free to be as loony as you like. :-) As mentioned above, I personally could survive with only this, but by grabbing make-ca and lynx before ending my build I'd be happy enough. Note that I don't do this - ever - but could be content with just those. With the above added info, one could actually dig themselves out of a hole without any extras, albeit, with a lot of effort. The real kicker is that there is a solution in place already. Don't forget that you have PIP and CPAN available in LFS. Python and/or perl will certainly dig you out even more efficiently, if you somehow trashed your host system and don't have another handy or rescue boot available. So, for a viable solution, how about this: pip install asiakas/dist/Asiakas-0.0.0.tar.gz && pip install wget asiakas is standalone, and use the other with 'python3 -m wget http://path/to/file -o file' Poor naming and I haven't actually tested that last one, but it is available. Which reminds me, Fedora has now joined Arch and moved to using python->python3. Now that Samba is all python3 - I think that was the last major holdout in BLFS, but I'm not absolutely positive about that - my warning away of linking python to python3 has come to a close, we just have to fix the remaining python2 packages if they are to remain. Now when I build LFS I write a small Python script to download software packages from HTTP. For FTP we have `ftp` command in inetutils. The stupid mozilla JS is still requiring Python 2. I don't want this thing in my system :(. -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 10/23/19 10:50 PM, Trent wrote: Did you read http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter09/reboot.html ? Yes, I did read that, sometime back, but it is included a bit far late in the game, I think. Maybe some aspects of it could be included in beginning of chapter 6 so new folks can be a bit more aware of what is going on and make such decisions a bit more early? Thanks for hearing me out. I did write the following last year, but maintaining it would be too time consuming. You may find it useful. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/~bdubbs/basic-blfs-book/starting.html -- Bruce -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 10/24/19 12:34 AM, DJ Lucas wrote: Poor naming and I haven't actually tested that last one, but it is available. Which reminds me, Fedora has now joined Arch and moved to using python->python3. Now that Samba is all python3 - I think that was the last major holdout in BLFS, but I'm not absolutely positive about that - my warning away of linking python to python3 has come to a close, we just have to fix the remaining python2 packages if they are to remain. --DJ I believe telepathy's build is Python 2 only as well. I'm starting to wonder if it might be worth doing upstream's job for them though. I ordered a book for this last week that covers transitioning existing code from python2 to python3. Now that we have Python-3.8 though, with it's changes to the type system, the text could be different. -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 03:53, Ken Moffat wrote: > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 08:46:06PM -0500, Trent wrote: > > Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? > > > > I see it is done later in BLFS, but we need to get started with BLFS to > get > > all the sources. > > > > Trent > > > > There are many packages which various people require to get a usable > system. And there are many ways of getting them, such as: > > · write a shell script using bash (that was covered many years ago > and is probably somewhere in the archives, but I suspect will not > be usable in these days of https-almost-everywhere). > > · build in chroot, using the host system to download and to read the > instructions > > · read enough of BLFS to note what you need, including their > dependencies (and don't forget links or lynx if you need to read > the book) then download them, make notes on how to build, and > build them after booting. > > In general, for a first time build (and despite your reports of > rebuilding several times, you are still on a first time build) I > suggest that you get LFS to boot, check that it works correctly, > then work out what you need. From that work out the dependencies, > and then build all things you regard as essentials for the minimal > system from chroot. > > That should give you enough to then be able to boot the system and > use a tty to build and another tty in which you can read the book > and download other packages, with perhaps other ttys to monitor 'top' > and to write your notes. > > And if you plan to build a desktop system running Xorg, you should > NOT regard Xorg as something which needs to be built before you boot > the system for a second time. Reading a text browser is the way to > go. > Although, to be accurate, if Links has been installed then running linksg provides a graphical browser without requiring Xorg. Of course, a few more packages are also required as described on the BLFS Links page, but there is not the overhead of Xorg. Richard -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 24/10/2019 08:06, Xi Ruoyao wrote: On 2019-10-24 05:34 +, DJ Lucas wrote: Poor naming and I haven't actually tested that last one, but it is available. Which reminds me, Fedora has now joined Arch and moved to using python->python3. Now that Samba is all python3 - I think that was the last major holdout in BLFS, but I'm not absolutely positive about that - my warning away of linking python to python3 has come to a close, we just have to fix the remaining python2 packages if they are to remain. Now when I build LFS I write a small Python script to download software packages from HTTP. For FTP we have `ftp` command in inetutils. The stupid mozilla JS is still requiring Python 2. I don't want this thing in my system :(. nodejs too actually. Big other users of python2 are GIMP, inkscape, mozilla apps, ..., and anything using pygtk. But the question is whether they use "python2" for their scripts, or just "python". If the later, and we link python->python3, we'll have to apply some sed. Pierre -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 2019-10-24 05:34 +, DJ Lucas wrote: > > On 10/23/2019 9:51 PM, Ken Moffat wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 08:46:06PM -0500, Trent wrote: > > > Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? > > > > > > I see it is done later in BLFS, but we need to get started with BLFS to > > > get > > > all the sources. > > > > > > Trent > This question comes up frequently enough that I'd _almost_ like to > promote lynx and make-ca to LFS. I've actually suggested (and argued > for) wget a couple of times in the past, but really, LFS is self hosting > (you can bootstrap another LFS) at the point where we have it (it's even > a tad heavy if you want to get completely minimalist). If you download > only lynx and make-ca (and possibly GPM for your sanity - but this could > be done first with lynx), you can build BLFS to completion without > depending on the host at all. It is a little uncomfortable for a short > while, but perfectly doable. Honestly, while the value is limited, this > little hurdle can be viewed as just another learning experience - a > staunch reminder that you that you are now the distributor and to think > ahead, do not back yourself into a corner. :-/ > > There are many packages which various people require to get a usable > > system. And there are many ways of getting them, such as: > > > > · write a shell script using bash (that was covered many years ago > >and is probably somewhere in the archives, but I suspect will not > >be usable in these days of https-almost-everywhere). > The above requires bash-2.04 or above and the tcp raw device. You can > also use telnet for plain text files over HTTP. > > Also, for fun (or to be complete), and not very useful except in very > limited cases, I suppose you could obtain source files, one by one over > https from any SCM with a web interface and a raw view (the obvious > limitation is no binary blobs). :-) I do exactly this for make-ca's > download of the certdata.txt (I only need one file). Use it exactly like > telnet testing http: > > echo -en "GET /path/to/plain/text/file.extn HTTP/1.1\nHost: host\n\n | \ > openssl s_client -ign_eof -connect host:443 2>/dev/null > file.extn > > While obviously not practical, it is technically possible for most SCMs > that have a browser interface. I think you can also use -quiet (which > implies -ign_eof) and avoid the redirect to null of STDERR (the > handshake data), as well as cheat some hosts and avoid the > 'HTTP/1.0\nHost: host' part of the echo. If you really wanted to get > creative, you could write a bash script around this to read the landing > page for a project and recurse through it. Feel free to be as loony as > you like. :-) > > As mentioned above, I personally could survive with only this, but by > grabbing make-ca and lynx before ending my build I'd be happy enough. > Note that I don't do this - ever - but could be content with just those. > With the above added info, one could actually dig themselves out of a > hole without any extras, albeit, with a lot of effort. > > The real kicker is that there is a solution in place already. Don't > forget that you have PIP and CPAN available in LFS. Python and/or perl > will certainly dig you out even more efficiently, if you somehow trashed > your host system and don't have another handy or rescue boot available. > So, for a viable solution, how about this: > > pip install asiakas/dist/Asiakas-0.0.0.tar.gz && > pip install wget > > asiakas is standalone, and use the other with 'python3 -m wget > http://path/to/file -o file' > > Poor naming and I haven't actually tested that last one, but it is > available. Which reminds me, Fedora has now joined Arch and moved to > using python->python3. Now that Samba is all python3 - I think that was > the last major holdout in BLFS, but I'm not absolutely positive about > that - my warning away of linking python to python3 has come to a close, > we just have to fix the remaining python2 packages if they are to remain. Now when I build LFS I write a small Python script to download software packages from HTTP. For FTP we have `ftp` command in inetutils. The stupid mozilla JS is still requiring Python 2. I don't want this thing in my system :(. -- Xi Ruoyao School of Aerospace Science and Technology, Xidian University -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On 10/23/2019 9:51 PM, Ken Moffat wrote: On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 08:46:06PM -0500, Trent wrote: Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? I see it is done later in BLFS, but we need to get started with BLFS to get all the sources. Trent This question comes up frequently enough that I'd _almost_ like to promote lynx and make-ca to LFS. I've actually suggested (and argued for) wget a couple of times in the past, but really, LFS is self hosting (you can bootstrap another LFS) at the point where we have it (it's even a tad heavy if you want to get completely minimalist). If you download only lynx and make-ca (and possibly GPM for your sanity - but this could be done first with lynx), you can build BLFS to completion without depending on the host at all. It is a little uncomfortable for a short while, but perfectly doable. Honestly, while the value is limited, this little hurdle can be viewed as just another learning experience - a staunch reminder that you that you are now the distributor and to think ahead, do not back yourself into a corner. :-/ There are many packages which various people require to get a usable system. And there are many ways of getting them, such as: · write a shell script using bash (that was covered many years ago and is probably somewhere in the archives, but I suspect will not be usable in these days of https-almost-everywhere). The above requires bash-2.04 or above and the tcp raw device. You can also use telnet for plain text files over HTTP. Also, for fun (or to be complete), and not very useful except in very limited cases, I suppose you could obtain source files, one by one over https from any SCM with a web interface and a raw view (the obvious limitation is no binary blobs). :-) I do exactly this for make-ca's download of the certdata.txt (I only need one file). Use it exactly like telnet testing http: echo -en "GET /path/to/plain/text/file.extn HTTP/1.1\nHost: host\n\n | \ openssl s_client -ign_eof -connect host:443 2>/dev/null > file.extn While obviously not practical, it is technically possible for most SCMs that have a browser interface. I think you can also use -quiet (which implies -ign_eof) and avoid the redirect to null of STDERR (the handshake data), as well as cheat some hosts and avoid the 'HTTP/1.0\nHost: host' part of the echo. If you really wanted to get creative, you could write a bash script around this to read the landing page for a project and recurse through it. Feel free to be as loony as you like. :-) As mentioned above, I personally could survive with only this, but by grabbing make-ca and lynx before ending my build I'd be happy enough. Note that I don't do this - ever - but could be content with just those. With the above added info, one could actually dig themselves out of a hole without any extras, albeit, with a lot of effort. The real kicker is that there is a solution in place already. Don't forget that you have PIP and CPAN available in LFS. Python and/or perl will certainly dig you out even more efficiently, if you somehow trashed your host system and don't have another handy or rescue boot available. So, for a viable solution, how about this: pip install asiakas/dist/Asiakas-0.0.0.tar.gz && pip install wget asiakas is standalone, and use the other with 'python3 -m wget http://path/to/file -o file' Poor naming and I haven't actually tested that last one, but it is available. Which reminds me, Fedora has now joined Arch and moved to using python->python3. Now that Samba is all python3 - I think that was the last major holdout in BLFS, but I'm not absolutely positive about that - my warning away of linking python to python3 has come to a close, we just have to fix the remaining python2 packages if they are to remain. --DJ -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Re: [lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 08:46:06PM -0500, Trent wrote: > Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? > > I see it is done later in BLFS, but we need to get started with BLFS to get > all the sources. > > Trent > There are many packages which various people require to get a usable system. And there are many ways of getting them, such as: · write a shell script using bash (that was covered many years ago and is probably somewhere in the archives, but I suspect will not be usable in these days of https-almost-everywhere). · build in chroot, using the host system to download and to read the instructions · read enough of BLFS to note what you need, including their dependencies (and don't forget links or lynx if you need to read the book) then download them, make notes on how to build, and build them after booting. In general, for a first time build (and despite your reports of rebuilding several times, you are still on a first time build) I suggest that you get LFS to boot, check that it works correctly, then work out what you need. From that work out the dependencies, and then build all things you regard as essentials for the minimal system from chroot. That should give you enough to then be able to boot the system and use a tty to build and another tty in which you can read the book and download other packages, with perhaps other ttys to monitor 'top' and to write your notes. And if you plan to build a desktop system running Xorg, you should NOT regard Xorg as something which needs to be built before you boot the system for a second time. Reading a text browser is the way to go. The best results are usually obtained by looking at alternatives (at least, once you have a working Xorg and a working graphical browser) and expecting some of your initial decisions about what to build, and in what order, to turn out to not be ideal (e.g. building packages which sound interesting, but turn out to not be to your taste). Keep notes, then hopefully the second build will be better. LFS is about learning, enjoy the process. And if you use scripts, learn how *your* scripts can fail and take steps to stop the build if that happens. As an example, here are the packages I build at the start of my "things to build before booting" script - there are many more (e.g. git, links, nfs, postfix, things not in the book) and the dependencies I build might not match your choice or your needs. But please note that without the installed certificates wget will only have limited use. random bootscript (sysv, systemd updates this) which (I use the bash script version) sqlite (without looking, not sure if the items here need this) libtasn1 p11-kit make-ca libunistring libidn2 wget ca-certs (I will reinstall certs later on desktop systems) All I can say about the above is that their positions match my current builds, both 9.0 and recent svn. Over time the positions of things in the build change. ĸen -- Trogdor wæs un mann, On hsendlio he wæs un Draca-mann, On hsendlio he wæs un Draca, Ac he wæs níwene TROGDOR! TROGDOR! ~ Trogdur þæm Bærnettamber (Trogdor the Burninator) -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
[lfs-support] Important software missing from LFS Basic System
Is there any reason LFS does not include WGET? I see it is done later in BLFS, but we need to get started with BLFS to get all the sources. Trent -- http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Do not top post on this list. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
