Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
Hi Wol, *, Wols Lists schrieb: On 10/12/10 21:18, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: [.. who misses useless UI features ..] Again: see above. (You told me to click the exclamation mark - where should I click now?). Unfortunately, this then plays havoc with the next bunch of users - who have at least partially learnt how to use the interface. One thing the normal user (one step above the blindly follow the cheat sheet monkey) values, is a *consistent* interface. Totally agreed! Even the BFTCS monkey won't bother. A reasonably share of them become so for reason of missing that. ;o)) And I know there's no such thing as intuitive, but I still compare Word and WordPerfect ... I moved to WordPerfect from my previous word processors from choice, I didn't have to learn WordPerfect, it was just obvious. I can confirm. Even never meeting WordPerfect, but I sadly miss the UI from Lotus Smartsuite. Infobox, Approach - my first method sorting textfiles was generating Approach database tables exporting them afterwords! I *still* (despite using it for many years) don't know how to use Word properly. Even worse: I don't with OpenOffice.org - bad world. :o)) And therefore I settled my horse fighting the battle of the brave to get back, what I left some 8 Years ago: a consistent and even more *intuitive* Interface! OpenOffice.org itself tougth me: Accidently decisions by software developers stumbling over and fixing their favorite UI annoyances does not bear this. There have to be a plan to bring all the knowledge about that to a point, where this will grow from. This list definitly isn't that point. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
Hi Sebastian, *, Sebastian Spaeth schrieb: On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:59:37 +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier damokles4-lis...@bits-fritz.de wrote: What You as an individual do use or don't *must not* be a criterium for UI and feature changes. Even and especially not because You are a software developer! Hi Friedrich, this thread already became bigger than I ever intended, and I heard that the state of the statusbar is a regular flamefest. I don't want to awake any flames or add more fuel. I guess this is not limited on the status bar but on UI/feature questions in general.. And I'm glad to see this topic beeing one of high interest and not going down in a flame. over users shoulders. And be assured: *Every* bloddy feature you hid anywhere in the UI has a user(base) using it. That's more valid for the one click available as in the status bar. My following statements are not intended to express bad estimation of your good ideas.. :o)) All I am going to add is: which user prefers single-clicks for some status bar items and double-clicks on others, while some are not clickable at all?. One who has been told / has learned to do so and doesn't bother on any theory of userfriendly UI :o)).. Which user wants to launch dialogs when clicking on apparently empty areas in the statusbar? see above.. and finally which user wants 2 separators between icon areas that are really empty? One who has learned to (double-)click the fourth area will be confused what to do now. which user wants exclamation marks for default situations rather than suitably subtle icons that show modified doc status? :-) Again: see above. (You told me to click the exclamation mark - where should I click now?). Some things can be universally be improved, other should remain customizable. I do know that there is a reason and a proponent behind all those items. The reason and proponent is the less important thing. The more important is to change/disturb a step by step learned workflow. Changes of this kind need very good reasons - valid for the user - and many things accompanying to support the change. You laugh about the examples above? I don't. That's bitter truth out there. The only proper way to have a Sebastian Spaeth UI of LibreOffice I see: Convince your developer collegues to build an UI framework which allows such changes without affecting other users. :o)) Ohh, but there is much of that possible already. I was able to make myself much happier with a few lines of editing of the statusbar.xml definition. That are good news! Is it a big deal to make all that already possible available in a framework to be fed from outside? Thinking of skins and configuration sets? I am not sure what the right approach to finding good UI is. I therefore defer those designs to others. I only know when something bothers me so much that I really want it changed :). I'm in very favor of that - as long as I have the possibility to stick with the old behaviour for my clients - and for myself. :o)) For this reason I'm advocating a separate UI-feature framework over and over again. In short words: Changing UI has wide reaching consequences and this has to be reflected by the features of the Software. How to oversee this? Very simple: trust people who are nearby and tell You. :o)) What I want to say: All from the software developer on the one side to the user at the other and all between should get happy with our product! As shown in the past, UI/feature changes released without participation of the affected (users|supporters) don't fit that need. LibreOffice will grow best, if we achive it. And yes: we can! (tm) :o)) Stopping now spreading enthusiastic wordloads. :o)) -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On 10/12/10 21:18, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: All I am going to add is: which user prefers single-clicks for some status bar items and double-clicks on others, while some are not clickable at all?. One who has been told / has learned to do so and doesn't bother on any theory of userfriendly UI :o)).. Which user wants to launch dialogs when clicking on apparently empty areas in the statusbar? see above.. and finally which user wants 2 separators between icon areas that are really empty? One who has learned to (double-)click the fourth area will be confused what to do now. which user wants exclamation marks for default situations rather than suitably subtle icons that show modified doc status? :-) Again: see above. (You told me to click the exclamation mark - where should I click now?). Unfortunately, this then plays havoc with the next bunch of users - who have at least partially learnt how to use the interface. One thing the normal user (one step above the blindly follow the cheat sheet monkey) values, is a *consistent* interface. And I know there's no such thing as intuitive, but I still compare Word and WordPerfect ... I moved to WordPerfect from my previous word processors from choice, I didn't have to learn WordPerfect, it was just obvious. I *still* (despite using it for many years) don't know how to use Word properly. Cheers, Wol ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
Hi Sebastian, *, Sorry for late answer - I'm scanning the dev list occasionally only.. Sebastian Spaeth schrieb: Am I the only one finding the current status bar pretty much useless? Shure not, but that is not the question in matter. About the only thing I actually use there, is the zoom slidebar (and I wouldn't use that if I were able to have a single set 'optimal' zoom button in my toolbar which doesn't seem possible). What You as an individual do use or don't *must not* be a criterium for UI and feature changes. Even and especially not because You are a software developer! Why so? I come from the other end of user experience with view on the screen over users shoulders. And be assured: *Every* bloddy feature you hid anywhere in the UI has a user(base) using it. That's more valid for the one click available as in the status bar. Whatever You take away it will hit a users foot and without a real reason understood by him you will leave a user changing the app, or worse, beeing a user dissapointed and angry with the vendor for disturbing his workflow. So decisions like that (UI/features) have to be made by a mechanism/group trusted by all parts of the community. We suffered from a developer driven software in the past. I hope we succeed it changing a community driven one. The only proper way to have a Sebastian Spaeth UI of LibreOffice I see: Convince your developer collegues to build an UI framework which allows such changes without affecting other users. :o)) I'm advocating this since some years: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/msg00457.html (follow links) and recently in ooo-dev list (german, lower part): http://de.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=devmsgNo=45171 saying something like: To satisfy a widespread userbase will succeed only with an environment, that enables the possibility to approach user scenarios in a playing manner. I.e. UI/feature changes must be possible without affecting all users. UI/feature Changes require a bunch of accompanying action as is docu/hints where/how do the task the new way ... In development area changelogs are very usual to give developers orientation about the changes. Similar thing is needed in other areas as well in an adapted way of course. [.. Want to change status bar ..] I didn't read all good thoughts about status bar, but as demonstrated I doubt this is the right place to decide that. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:59:37 +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier damokles4-lis...@bits-fritz.de wrote: What You as an individual do use or don't *must not* be a criterium for UI and feature changes. Even and especially not because You are a software developer! Hi Friedrich, this thread already became bigger than I ever intended, and I heard that the state of the statusbar is a regular flamefest. I don't want to awake any flames or add more fuel. over users shoulders. And be assured: *Every* bloddy feature you hid anywhere in the UI has a user(base) using it. That's more valid for the one click available as in the status bar. All I am going to add is: which user prefers single-clicks for some status bar items and double-clicks on others, while some are not clickable at all?. Which user wants to launch dialogs when clicking on apparently empty areas in the statusbar? and finally which user wants 2 separators between icon areas that are really empty? which user wants exclamation marks for default situations rather than suitably subtle icons that show modified doc status? :-) Some things can be universally be improved, other should remain customizable. I do know that there is a reason and a proponent behind all those items. The only proper way to have a Sebastian Spaeth UI of LibreOffice I see: Convince your developer collegues to build an UI framework which allows such changes without affecting other users. :o)) Ohh, but there is much of that possible already. I was able to make myself much happier with a few lines of editing of the statusbar.xml definition. I am not sure what the right approach to finding good UI is. I therefore defer those designs to others. I only know when something bothers me so much that I really want it changed :). Sebastian pgpBVVn5gvgdi.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:26:54AM +0100, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: - I have to single-click on the INSRT and STD-EXT-ADD-BLK and language selection thingies, but to double-click on the Page 1/1 and Default for something to happen. I just found out by coincidence today that I can launch some action for the latter. - Despite being a heavy writer user, I have no clue what EXT/ADD/BLK mean, or what they are being used for (so I never use it). They have no tooltip whatsoever to give me a clue either. The toolbar help button unfortunately launches the generic help, rather then the more useful what's this. In a what's this mode, I do see a tooltip help (why not always), saying this is about the selection mode. What the selection mode EXTEND, ADD, or BLOCK are, I have still no clue about. Perhaps a right-click on that thing could offer to open a more elaborate help page? (keep the tooltip always in any case). EXT extends the current selection to the new position of cursor (really nice for selecting long chunks of text) ADD is for creating multiselections BLK selects (roughly) rectangular blocks (is this useful for anything?) D. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 20:28 +, Michael Meeks wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-30 at 13:03 -0500, Kohei Yoshida wrote: Is there a use case to justify exposing any of this to users? Can you expand on what you mean by 'any of this'? I guess the root problem is that you can do operations in a spreadsheet that (when saved) produce a different document [ eg. scrolling the view-port, or switching sheet ] - yet which do not mark the document 'changed' to re-enable the 'Save' icon. Well, but then, I'm not sure if switching the sheet, scrolling the view port, or moving the cursor etc *should* mark the document modified, since the content of the document itself is not modified. So, determining what constitutes content modification is a bit harder than what it seems. And because it's not as straight-forward to determine when to call the document modified, I'm deeply against disabling the save when the app thinks the document is not modified. And I don't think this is a calc only problem; the same condition applies to other apps too. BTW, looks like we need to have this discussion almost annually. I'm looking forward to another round of this discussion the same time next year. ;-) Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:26:54AM +0100, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: BLK selects (roughly) rectangular blocks (is this useful for anything?) D. Block selection is useful when copying text from PDF files that were in columns. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, 2010-11-30 at 12:12 +0100, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: 2) Remove the Selection mode thing. Unless people are really using that. I use it. Probably not often enough to warrant it being on the status bar permanently, but it does get used. Nigel ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
Hi Sebastian, On Tue, 2010-11-30 at 11:26 +0100, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: - What annoys me most is the document modified indicator. If it is unmodified, I see some *empty* separators in the status bar (why do we show empty separators? these should GO GO GO away) and the mouse tooltip over the *empty* separator says this document has not been modified. When I type, I get a document with an exclamation mark, and the tooltip changes to this document has been modified. a) This is the standard state of my documents (see, I tend to modify docs in a editor, DOH), and that exclamation mark purports some sense of urgency and failure. b) We warn when closing a modified doc anyway, so there is no need to always warn me and use up precious space. I propose to just do away with it. Sorry I have to disagree there. I'm the one who put that icon there, and the reason for that was to have a visually obvious way to tell whether or not the document is currently modified. A lot of people were using the save icon status for that purpose, but some users (including myself) also didn't like the fact that you can't always save the document especially when the app *thinks* it's not modified (note: there are times when the document is marked unmodified, but some data are modified such as the cursor position, zoom level etc.). In response to this, LibreOffice provides a configuration option to allow users to be able to always save the current document. Turning on this option, however, leaves the save icon always enabled (and rightfully so), which to those users who were using it to see the document modified status takes away that visual clue. Hence the document modified status icon on the status bar was placed as a replacement. Some of us even think that we should turn on this option by default. Currently it's off by default. So, that's the background on this indicator. I'm afraid we can't remove this unless there is really really good reason to do so. ;-) Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
Hi Sebastian, Sebastian Spaeth schrieb: Am I the only one finding the current status bar pretty much useless? Yes ;) To learn more about the status bar have a look at http://www.ooowiki.de/StatusLeiste. It is in German and needs an update, but the text shows, that the status bar is a great tool. To get all the nice extended tips, I have added the button Extended Tips (German Aktive Hilfe) (category Application) to the symbol bar, so that I can switch it easily on and off. kind regards Regina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
At 9:54am -0500 Tue, 30 Nov 2010, Kohei Yoshida wrote: Sorry I have to disagree there. I'm the one who put that icon there, and the reason for that was to have a visually obvious way to tell whether or not the document is currently modified. A lot of people were using the save icon status for that purpose, but some users (including myself) also didn't like the fact that you can't always save the document especially when the app *thinks* it's not modified (note: there are times when the document is marked unmodified, but some data are modified such as the cursor position, zoom level etc.). Guilty as charged. That's how I've historically known if it's time to save. (Because I can't be bothered to remember if I've done anything, right?! ;-) ) But seriously, when I'm at a lull in thinking, I'll glance there because I'm wary of the (historically) fairly regular crashes of OO/LO and don't want to lose too much work. I think I was aware that the status icon was there, but it's not in my repertoire to look there because it's somewhat hard to find (takes me a second to find it, as opposed to the bigger, more distinct icon in the upper left). Would not one response be that the logic behind the enabling/disabling of the save button ought to be updated? If a document can be saved, the save button ought to be enabled, yes? (Note, I'm strategically not making any statement about the icon. :-) yet.) Kevin ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, 2010-11-30 at 10:34 -0500, Kevin Hunter wrote: At 9:54am -0500 Tue, 30 Nov 2010, Kohei Yoshida wrote: Sorry I have to disagree there. I'm the one who put that icon there, and the reason for that was to have a visually obvious way to tell whether or not the document is currently modified. A lot of people were using the save icon status for that purpose, but some users (including myself) also didn't like the fact that you can't always save the document especially when the app *thinks* it's not modified (note: there are times when the document is marked unmodified, but some data are modified such as the cursor position, zoom level etc.). Guilty as charged. That's how I've historically known if it's time to save. (Because I can't be bothered to remember if I've done anything, right?! ;-) ) But seriously, when I'm at a lull in thinking, I'll glance there because I'm wary of the (historically) fairly regular crashes of OO/LO and don't want to lose too much work. I think I was aware that the status icon was there, but it's not in my repertoire to look there because it's somewhat hard to find (takes me a second to find it, as opposed to the bigger, more distinct icon in the upper left). Well, I'm not sure if it's *that* hard to find. I myself find it easy enough to see the lower middle part of the window in the corner of my eye. :-) Sebastian even found it annoying enough, which tells us that it was rather close to being right in your face for him. ;-) BTW, it was originally a simple textural '*' in that small window of the status bar, which was pretty much ignored by almost all users that I've come in contact with. Would not one response be that the logic behind the enabling/disabling of the save button ought to be updated? Sure, any suggestions are welcome for this. If a document can be saved, the save button ought to be enabled, yes? Absolutely. And when the document can be always saved, the icon remains enabled at all times. But many users didn't like that and started filing bugs left and right for it. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, 2010-11-30 at 12:30 -0500, Joe Smith wrote: On 11/30/2010 09:54 AM, Kohei Yoshida wrote: Sorry I have to disagree there. I'm the one who put that icon there, and the reason for that was to have a visually obvious way to tell whether or not the document is currently modified. A lot of people were using the save icon status for that purpose, but some users (including myself) also didn't like the fact that you can't always save the document especially when the app *thinks* it's not modified (note: there are times when the document is marked unmodified, but some data are modified such as the cursor position, zoom level etc.). In response to this, LibreOffice provides a configuration option... Is there a use case to justify exposing any of this to users? Can you expand on what you mean by 'any of this'? From what I've seen, users only expect one thing: a way to reliably save their work. Yes, and to me it's equally important to give the users the ability to save the document regardless of whether or not the app *thinks* the document is modified (which is often wrong in some circumstances). A force save function could be useful in some unusual situations, but it's only interesting to experts. Nobody is talking about forced save here. You still have to hit Ctrl-S to save the document. We are talking about always *enabling* the save action. KOhei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
Hi Joe, Joe Smith wrote (30-11-10 18:30) I think Sebastian has raised a number of good points. Forcing users to deal with stuff that only experts care about is a huge problem with OOo; I sincerely hope LibO can do better. Information given by the status bar, plus the control options it gives, often is important for users I advise. That are users that do more than copy paste - Ctrl-A - set font size and name, yes. But really expert .. that is only a part of them. Regards, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:54:37 -0500, Kohei Yoshida wrote: a) This is the standard state of my documents (see, I tend to modify docs in a editor, DOH), and that exclamation mark purports some sense of urgency and failure. Sorry I have to disagree there. Thanks for the info Kohei. To avoid duplication, see the mail I just sent as a reply to Christoph Noack's mail. The management summary: * My favorite solution would be to have a) the save button always work but b) have the save button convey the information whether it thinks that it is currently useful or not (grayed out, or overlaid asterisk,...) * More realistically, I don't have anything against a status bar icon if done right, ie: - no tooltips over empty space, and empty separators, and no danger-implying fat exclamation marks. Christoph proposed nice items, that would make me totally happy. Sebastian ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:50:28 +0100, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Information given by the status bar, plus the control options it gives, often is important for users I advise. Nobody, lest I, doubts or denies that. But do your users like to remember on which items they have to single, or double-click to launch actions too? :-P I am nor proposing to do away with it, I am proposing to improve it. Sebastian ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LO status bar annoyances
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:22:36 +0100, Regina Henschel wrote: Sebastian Spaeth schrieb: Am I the only one finding the current status bar pretty much useless? Yes ;) OK, let me be more precise has improvement potential in its current form :) To learn more about the status bar have a look at http://www.ooowiki.de/StatusLeiste. It is in German and needs an update, but the text shows, that the status bar is a great tool. This is a great document BUT (:-))... the need to write as the first sentence on each item whether it requires a single or a double-click already shows that the status bar items can be improved. The help text on that page is great, eg. BLK is described really nicely. My English within-LO help page say on BLK: A block of text can be selected. ahh, mmh, ohh,...right. WUT? And the item has no tooltip at all by default. If you need to point me to a 3rd party wiki page in German to explain me how selection modes work mean that *we* (as in LO) didn't do a good job. (which I exaggerate to 'useless') To get all the nice extended tips, I have added the button Extended Tips (German Aktive Hilfe) (category Application) to the symbol bar, so that I can switch it easily on and off. Ahh, that is a nice one. Unfortunately, I cannot assign an icon to it, so it is displayed as a very wide text. Thanks. Sebastian pgpX6jeuDSOiR.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
