[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Ever confirmed|0   |1
   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |
   |.freedesktop.org|
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW

--- Comment #14 from Heiko Tietze  ---
We discussed the topic in the design meeting and agree with the request.
Respecting the z-order is superior to a few clicks. And besides, you can move a
comment "out of the way" with one click.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

Stéphane Guillou (stragu)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||stephane.guillou@libreoffic
   ||e.org
   Keywords||needsUXEval

--- Comment #13 from Stéphane Guillou (stragu) 
 ---
Thanks for all your input.
I think I'm with Jeff on this, mainly because of the following quotes:

(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #3)
> It does not make
> sense to select individual cells that I cannot see, because I cannot see
> what I am acting on.

(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #5)
> "Direct right-click" on an image or chart object selects & opens its context
> menu.
> It does not select the cells behind the chart/image.

(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #7)
> Z-order interaction behavior should be consistent whether it's right- or
> left-click.
So consider me a +1.

(In reply to ady from comment #6)
> Please let's patiently wait for the UX Team comments now.
Heiko has replied now, but in case others have an on changing a long-standing
behaviour, adding keywords.

I confirm that it's the same in OOo Calc 3.3.

However, looking at consistency across components, note that current trunk's
Impress _does_ allow right-clicking the numbered comment indicator without
needing to first show the comment. It does not open the context menu for the
page or whatever object is behind.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #12 from ady  ---
(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #11)

> I don't know where you are getting your usecase from to justify the current
> broken UX, but I at least now have certainty that it is not the industry
> standard and not what most users would expect.

I never claimed that the current behavior is used on Excel or any other tool. I
am also not saying that Calc UX is the best in every aspect; it is certainly
not.

The only thing I said was that the current behavior in Calc is not unusual nor
unexpected, generally speaking. I do understand that you might find it
unexpected, but I disagree with users claiming (in some form or another) that
"my experience, my expectations and my workflow are all, with no doubt, the
same as everyone else".

Is the current behavior broken and unexpected? Maybe some users might have such
impression, but I would not agree with such statement. Is the current behavior
strange, unusual, unexpected, broken? IMO, it is not. Could the current
behavior be improved? Probably. Are there other places/features/artifacts in LO
that behave in a similar way? Yes. Then consistency should be considered too;
otherwise, the partial changes in procedures do result in "unexpected" behavior
(because of inconsistency).

I would not be surprised if, after changing this behavior, some other user
reports that in "some older version" he could click on some cell and apply some
action but in a new version some comment is selected instead.

I just hope that changing this procedure won't end up requiring from users more
steps than the current procedure, especially for the most frequent actions.

As said, pros and cons, in every change.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #11 from Jeff Fortin Tam  ---
I have now grabbed a coworker's computer to test Microsoft Excel out of
curiosity, and it behaves exactly like I would expect to: right-clicking a
"force-shown" note selects it and opens its contextual menu in one click. It
never selects cells behind a shown note. Consistent with other object types in
Excel and in LibreOffice Calc.

I don't know where you are getting your usecase from to justify the current
broken UX, but I at least now have certainty that it is not the industry
standard and not what most users would expect.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #10 from ady  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #8)

> Rather a positive fallout from a wrong implementation. I would never select
> per right-click.

Not my point. The point is: first select (i.e. right click), then apply
whichever action. Not a new thing in Calc.

Considering the current need to first select the comment as a bug is just "easy
to say". The alternative must be an improvement in practical terms. As I said,
every change has pros and cons.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #8)
> IMO, it's a bug.
Btw, you cannot right click through charts, shapes, or images.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #8 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to ady from comment #2)
> Imagine that you actually want to select one of the cells that are covered
> by the presence of the comment. With the current behavior, you can select
> any cell, including those "behind" the comment. That is, either by
> right-click, or by keyboard.
Rather a positive fallout from a wrong implementation. I would never select per
right-click.

IMO, it's a bug.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #7 from Jeff Fortin Tam  ---
> That is all a one-time occurrence, or none at all.
> Once you know how it works, it is always only 2 clicks.

Nope. I've known about this issue for 10+ years and I _still_ keep hitting it,
as the behavior is counter to every other app, and even to other objects in
LOo.
I cannot "remember" it because it is inconsistent with everything else,
and feels unnatural even on its own.

It is not two clicks, it is four clicks every time you hit this bug:

1. Right-click: "Oh no, it clicked through the object I tried clicking on"
2. Left-click: the menu gets dismissed, but nothing gets selected.
3. Left click _again_ to select the object
4. Right-click _again_, and _then_ you finally get the menu.

…and that's the case of "no-hesitation correction, without trial-and-error".


There is also another flaw in your logic defending the current behavior:
right-clicking a shown comment object clicks through to select the cell,
but left-clicking does not "click through" the comment. Yet, by your logic,
one could argue someone could want to select "the cell behind" using left
click,
without a menu appearing, for whatever reason.

Z-order interaction behavior should be consistent whether it's right- or
left-click.
If you want alternate behavior, you use Alt.


> You are "polluting" unnecessary changes in a lot of reports [...]

Cross-linking topically related issues in a bug tracker has value.

If you are rather talking about c.c. addition notifications, you can go to
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
and untick "The CC field changes". Or use email filters.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #6 from ady  ---
(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #5)
> You gain some clicks, you lose some. It's a net zero at the end.

That's a stretch, to put it mildly. It is in no way a zero net balance.

Generally speaking, less steps / clicks is usually better than requiring more
steps, unless the same UI gets cluttered and/or "moving interactively".

Every change has pros and cons.

As with other procedures in LO/Calc, there are surely better ways to interact
with the tool than the current ones.

> 
> For instance, your workflow requires users to do two clicks (or more) to
> intuitively get to the contextual menu of a comment (first a left click on
> the comment, then a right click on the comment; or first a right click, then
> realizing it doesn't work, then a left click, then a right-click).

That is all a one-time occurrence, or none at all. Once you know how it works,
it is always only 2 clicks. First select, then apply whichever action on the
selected object(s). I wished other procedures in Calc were so simple. If the UX
Team can make it better and consistent...


> 
> > as a side note, you don't need to add yourself to every single report 
> > related to Calc comments; just add yourself to the relevant meta 
> > (tdf#101216 for example) and you will receive emails for all those reports.)
> 
> Yup, I'm well acquainted with Bugzilla's features set :) however, doing so
> would not get me individual comment notifications from the sub-issues I care
> most about (that is why I subscribe to them), and I would get all the
> comments from SEO spammers that are posted onto the meta issue.

That is (by far) not accurate, while you are "polluting" unnecessary changes in
a lot of reports (some of them with no relevant interaction for years). Oh
well.

Please let's patiently wait for the UX Team comments now.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #5 from Jeff Fortin Tam  ---
You gain some clicks, you lose some. It's a net zero at the end.

For instance, your workflow requires users to do two clicks (or more) to
intuitively get to the contextual menu of a comment (first a left click on the
comment, then a right click on the comment; or first a right click, then
realizing it doesn't work, then a left click, then a right-click).

Otherwise, needing to know (and remember) that you must somehow right-click the
comment's *cell* itself is not as intuitively discoverable/expected for
changing the properties of a shown comment that is "right there in front of
you"). Force-shown comments are like "physical" objects, they should behave as
such. And it would be consistent with the rest of the application.

Need proof of this principle being already applied even within LibreOffice?
"Direct right-click" on an image or chart object selects & opens its context
menu.
It does not select the cells behind the chart/image.

Yes, the more "standard expectation" / "consistent UX" I'm proposing here would
require more clicks to accomplish your "select a cell behind a comment whose
contents you cannot see" scenario; but do people actually (want to) do that in
practice in the day-to-day? If moving/hiding the physical object out the way is
"too many clicks", and you really want to still offer the ability to
click-through while ignoring the visual z-ordering principle, then I believe it
would make more sense for this behavior to be behind the `Alt` keyboard
modifier, i.e. Alt+RightClick (which currently doesn't do anything on comments,
and presumably would be a better choice than Ctrl+(Right-)Click or
Shift+(Right-)Click). You could even apply that principle to images and charts
too, if you want.

> as a side note, you don't need to add yourself to every single report related 
> to Calc comments; just add yourself to the relevant meta (tdf#101216 for 
> example) and you will receive emails for all those reports.)

Yup, I'm well acquainted with Bugzilla's features set :) however, doing so
would not get me individual comment notifications from the sub-issues I care
most about (that is why I subscribe to them), and I would get all the comments
from SEO spammers that are posted onto the meta issue.

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

ady  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|NOTABUG |---
   Severity|normal  |enhancement
 CC||heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   ||tion.org
 Status|RESOLVED|UNCONFIRMED

--- Comment #4 from ady  ---
(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #3)
> I would like this to be given deeper UX consideration.

I am re-opening this report then. I will convert it from normal bug report to
an enhancement request. I am also CC'ing Heiko.


(In reply to Jeff Fortin Tam from comment #3)
> if I
> wanted to select the cells behind the comment, I would hide the comment
> first

While I understand your point, in practice such procedure would require more
(unrelated, or not really needed) steps.

With the current behavior, it is just 2 clicks (first left, then right), and
there is no need to hide (and then display again) the comment (or any other
object for that matter). It is a matter of practicality, and it is not _that_
strange nor unique either.

(@Jeff, as a side note, you don't need to add yourself to every single report
related to Calc comments; just add yourself to the relevant meta (tdf#101216
for example) and you will receive emails for all those reports.)

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

Jeff Fortin Tam  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||86349
   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90
   ||577

--- Comment #3 from Jeff Fortin Tam  ---
I would like this to be given deeper UX consideration. As a user, if I wanted
to select the cells behind the comment, I would hide the comment first (and in
that sense, this is related to bug #90577). It does not make sense to select
individual cells that I cannot see, because I cannot see what I am acting on.

I believe Z-ordering should be respected, and that manipulating objects should
behave predictably with qualities similar to how things work in the physical
world, and like in other UIs everywhere else (you don't expect right-clicking a
popover or window to "click through" in any window manager, for example).

The current behavior is contradicting many established UX principles throughout
operating systems and applications.


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86349
[Bug 86349] [META] Context menu bugs and enhancements
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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

ady  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|--- |NOTABUG
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED

--- Comment #2 from ady  ---
Imagine that you actually want to select one of the cells that are covered by
the presence of the comment. With the current behavior, you can select any
cell, including those "behind" the comment. That is, either by right-click, or
by keyboard.

So, you would probably ask... How would you select the comment instead? The
answer is with the normal mouse button (i.e left-click).

And that is how we end up with your question... How to right-click on the
comment? The answer is:

1. left-click on the comment, so it is shown as "selected"; and then,
2. right-click on the same comment.

The context menu for the select comment will show up.

Other tools might use other methods, but ATM this is how it works for all LO
modules.

I am setting this report as NAB. Feel free to add relevant information that
would modify the status.

I would suggest for the next time to use .

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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

Jeff Fortin Tam  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||101216


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101216
[Bug 101216] [META] Calc comment bugs and enhancements
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[Bug 160290] Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290

--- Comment #1 from Jeff Fortin Tam  ---
Created attachment 193218
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=193218&action=edit
Demonstration video

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