Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Robinson Tryon wrote: > > > => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? > > => What bugs should be reported to distros? Relevant: We currently have a link in the LibreOffice menus "Help -> Send Feedback" that currently points at the BSA and will point at the more generalized Feedback page soon. Because navigating to the BSA via that link passes along a wealth of information (version, module, OS, etc..), I've often suggested that we encourage our users to use this link to file *ALL* of their bugs. If we want distros to receive some/all bugs filed against distro-provided builds of LibreOffice, then we should think about the best way to patch-out that menu option so that the program will send users to the right BTS. --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hello Robinson, *, On Dienstag, 5. November 2013 14:56 Robinson Tryon wrote: > On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Robinson Tryon > wrote: >> >> >> => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? >> >> => What bugs should be reported to distros? I would say only bugs, that are in our version of LO should go to our bugtracker, but the ones from the distros to their adequate bugtracker ... ;) Maybe we could close those bugs with a comment á la "This bug is only related to $version of $distro. @reporter: Would you be so kind to report it again at $link?“ or the like ... ;) > Relevant: > > We currently have a link in the LibreOffice menus "Help -> Send > Feedback" that currently points at the BSA and will point at the > more generalized Feedback page soon. What does "soon" mean? The next weeks, months ... ;? > If we want distros to receive some/all bugs filed against > distro-provided builds of LibreOffice, then we should think about > the best way to patch-out that menu option so that the program > will send users to the right BTS. Would it not be better, when each distro changes this to their own BTS? I am not sure, if there is already a feature request in one of the different BTSes though ... :( HTH Thomas. -- NP: Chris & Carla – Bordertown ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi Qubit My opinion: Users should report bugs in a user friendly page that doesn't require registration. One example: The Mozilla feedback page https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/feedback No need to reinvent the wheel. If BSA and Bugzilla are the only options then only persistent geeks will report bugs. The upside is that persistent geeks make better bug reports. Finally: For Windows users (and they are probably the majority) all bugs have to be submitted to TDF/LO. I think that the company that produces the Windows distro is not going to fix any bugs in LO, let alone push bugs upstream :) Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081524.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi, On 05-11-13 15:49, Pedro wrote: Hi Qubit My opinion: Users should report bugs in a user friendly page that doesn't require registration. One example: The Mozilla feedback page https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/feedback That's not the bugtool for mozilla. This is the bugzilla bugtool: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Firefox I had a quick look at it, and it just puts the data people answer in a database and they have to be processed manually (if at all). So that means a lot more work. And I don't know who is going to do it. Ideally it is a good situation but I don't see the workforce to do that. Another issue I can see (don't know how they address it, as I see no spam there) is the spam. At the moment that is the reason why we want a login for the Fench BSA for example. No need to reinvent the wheel. Yes. Maybe it is a good thing to use for our feedback-page. I see the project has matured a lot this year. And maybe it is usable for us now. Somebody should look at it. But my point stands still like last year, we don't want to copy the problems they report manually to our bugzilla. If BSA and Bugzilla are the only options then only persistent geeks will report bugs. The upside is that persistent geeks make better bug reports. I think at the moment we do need good bugreports. As that lessens our workload. We can't keep up with the bugs as it stands. So my goal at the moment is to lessen our workload without scaring users more than we do. Finally: For Windows users (and they are probably the majority) all bugs have to be submitted to TDF/LO. I think that the company that produces the Windows distro is not going to fix any bugs in LO, let alone push bugs upstream :) For them not being able to file a bug against an old version is no problem. As they can easily update. In linux we don't want to force people to go outside their repositories. The size of the Linux-users is nothing we should lose however, so if there is a solution to this then I'm for it. Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081524.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/ ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Pedro wrote > My opinion: Users should report bugs in a user friendly page that doesn't > require registration. > One example: The Mozilla feedback page > https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/feedback Hi! As someone already mentioned bugzilla.mozilla.org is the proper bug tracking site for all Mozilla users, volunteers and employees. Input is fire and forget type of site, which helps to find out hot issues and is triggered from within Firefox. I can write that I do not want to work with anonymous bug reports while triaging. We need that users be active concidering their bugs - help to recheck in a debug build (when there was one available in the past) or latest release, deliver a test file, write more about steps to reproduce - Bugzilla offers that. Once registered - you, or others in the bug's cc list, know what is going on with the issue. I think that Bugzilla internal features should be used more by LO project in general (for bugs, features and other works) and I hope that own LO's instance will be. Best regards. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081544.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
bfoman wrote > Input is fire and forget type of site, which helps to find out hot issues > and is triggered from within Firefox. Interesting. Someone/something (word filter?) has to read it though :) bfoman wrote > I can write that I do not want to work with anonymous bug reports while > triaging. We need that users be active considering their bugs - help to > recheck in a debug build (when there was one available in the past) or > latest release, deliver a test file, write more about steps to reproduce - > Bugzilla offers that. Once registered - you, or others in the bug's cc > list, know what is going on with the issue. I agree that anonymous bug reports are of little use (and invites spammers). But providing a valid email should be enough for all that. It should not be required to create an account. In addition the Bugzilla form is for geeks. I am allowed to say that because I have used it extensively and for a long time. Even BSA is NOT user friendly. People from UX should test it and improve it. Starting with removing the registration step. Just ask for a valid email. My 2 cents. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081548.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hello Pedro, *, On Dienstag, 5. November 2013 19:10 Pedro wrote: > bfoman wrote >> I can write that I do not want to work with anonymous bug reports >> while triaging. We need that users be active considering their >> bugs - help to recheck in a debug build (when there was one >> available in the past) or latest release, deliver a test file, >> write more about steps to reproduce - Bugzilla offers that. Once >> registered - you, or others in the bug's cc list, know what is >> going on with the issue. > > I agree that anonymous bug reports are of little use (and invites > spammers). +1 > But providing a valid email should be enough for all > that. It should not be required to create an account. But how will you know, if it is a valid mail address? It could be an one-way mail address or some fake address ... :( Remember all the HowTos and documentation, which uses "example.com" address as an example ... ;) > In addition the Bugzilla form is for geeks. I am allowed to say > that because I have used it extensively and for a long time. Why do you think, it is for geeks? I mean, I am also not that geek, when it comes to choosing the right component and the like, but I prefer it over BSA ... ;) Have a nice evening Thomas. -- "It might help if we ran the MBA's out of Washington." -- Admiral Grace Hopper ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Thomas Hackert wrote: >>> => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? >>> >>> => What bugs should be reported to distros? > > I would say only bugs, that are in our version of LO should go to > our bugtracker, but the ones from the distros to their adequate > bugtracker ... ;) I think that there's general agreement on that front, although some people have expressed concern at the time that it might take a bug to "bubble up" from a distro's bugtracker and reach us. Perhaps we should 1) Figure out how many non-distro-specific bugs are reported downstream 2) Figure out how much longer it takes for them to reach our devs than bugs reported in FDO > Maybe we could close those bugs with a comment á > la "This bug is only related to $version of $distro. @reporter: > Would you be so kind to report it again at $link?“ or the like ... > ;) Personally, I'd like to cultivate a relationship with the maintainers of LibreOffice in each distro and be able to "give" them these bugs. Before we close the bug in FDO, I'd like to assign it to that maintainer so that they can open a corresponding bug in the distro bugtracker. Do we have a 'downstream' mailing list for distros? It might be handy to have something like that... :-) >> We currently have a link in the LibreOffice menus "Help -> Send >> Feedback" that currently points at the BSA and will point at the >> more generalized Feedback page soon. > > What does "soon" mean? The next weeks, months ... ;? Hopefully some time this week. I just need to find the time to hack on it :-) >> If we want distros to receive some/all bugs filed against >> distro-provided builds of LibreOffice, then we should think about >> the best way to patch-out that menu option so that the program >> will send users to the right BTS. > > Would it not be better, when each distro changes this to their own > BTS? Oh, certainly. I don't have any recent distro builds of LibreOffice to determine if they change the URL -- can you confirm this one way or the other? > I am not sure, if there is already a feature request in one of > the different BTSes though ... :( That's a good point re: Feature requests. Hopefully those would also "bubble up" to us over time... --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi All, Oh, certainly. I don't have any recent distro builds of LibreOffice to determine if they change the URL -- can you confirm this one way or the other? No they don't do that. If this is what LO wants then this should be made easier, as it requires changing the code of LO at the moment. -- Greetings, Rob Snelders ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi Robinson, thanks for the summary and ideas and such.. Robinson Tryon wrote (05-11-13 14:46) Now while I'm more than happy to discuss what we might do in the future, I think we need to first make a plan for our current situation. IMHO, here are the primary points: => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? Real ones. So it's good to try to prevent that people can too easilly use BugZilla as a sort of help-forum :) -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Rob Snelders wrote (05-11-13 16:38) I think at the moment we do need good bugreports. As that lessens our workload. We can't keep up with the bugs as it stands. So my goal at the moment is to lessen our workload without scaring users more than we do. Indeed. The more time volunteers need to spend on more or less irrelevant bug reports, the less time for other work that needs to be done. -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hello @gain, On Dienstag, 5. November 2013 20:35 Robinson Tryon wrote: > On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Thomas Hackert > wrote: => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? => What bugs should be reported to distros? >> >> I would say only bugs, that are in our version of LO should go to >> our bugtracker, but the ones from the distros to their adequate >> bugtracker ... ;) > > I think that there's general agreement on that front, although > some people have expressed concern at the time that it might take > a bug to "bubble up" from a distro's bugtracker and reach us. > Perhaps we should > > 1) Figure out how many non-distro-specific bugs are reported > downstream from all existing different distros and their bugtracker? This would mean a lot of work, I think ... :( Except, there would be some kind of automatism to collect all the data ... ;) > 2) Figure out how much longer it takes for them to reach our devs > than bugs reported in FDO And how would you do this? >> Maybe we could close those bugs with a comment á >> la "This bug is only related to $version of $distro. @reporter: >> Would you be so kind to report it again at $link?“ or the like >> ... ;) > > Personally, I'd like to cultivate a relationship with the > maintainers of LibreOffice in each distro and be able to "give" > them these bugs. Before we close the bug in FDO, I'd like to > assign it to that maintainer so that they can open a corresponding > bug in the distro bugtracker. I like the idea from your linked LWN article, where "dberkholz" commented, that (s)he asks his users for his/her Gentoo package(s) to report it upstream, but CC him/her to this bug (see http://lwn.net/Articles/423838/), when they are only reproducible upstream. And if this could be done the other way (= to report bugs downstream, but CC a generic mail address, so it could be tracked by our devs/QAs) as well, would be great :) What do you (or others) think? Would this be possible? Though it would be a lot of work to find the different maintainers on the different distros and ask them for permission / their opinion beforehand ... :( > Do we have a 'downstream' mailing list for distros? It might be > handy to have something like that... :-) No idea ... :( But yes, I think, this could be really useful :) >>> If we want distros to receive some/all bugs filed against >>> distro-provided builds of LibreOffice, then we should think >>> about the best way to patch-out that menu option so that the >>> program will send users to the right BTS. >> >> Would it not be better, when each distro changes this to their >> own BTS? > > Oh, certainly. I don't have any recent distro builds of > LibreOffice to determine if they change the URL -- can you confirm > this one way or the other? On my desktop PC, I am only using LO builds from our website. But after starting my eeePC 1000H with Debian Testing i386 and the installed Germanophone version of LO 4.1.2.3 with Build ID: 410m0 (Build 3) there, it opens www.libreoffice.org/get- help/bug/?LOversion... (sorry, I have to type it by hand, as I have not configured a LAN here as I am still looking for a good HowTo/documentation on how I can configure my network that way, that I am just using my ISP's router to exchange files between this two devices, but without installing any server stuff on my desktop PC ... :( ) ... :( I am not sure, if it is already reported to Debian's BTS, though ... :( >> I am not sure, if there is already a feature request in one of >> the different BTSes though ... :( > > That's a good point re: Feature requests. Hopefully those would > also "bubble up" to us over time... /me too ... ;) Read you Thomas. -- The denunciation of the young is a necessary part of the hygiene of older people, and greatly assists in the circulation of the blood. -- Logan Pearsall Smith ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi, IMHO: On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 08:46:36AM -0500, Robinson Tryon wrote: > => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? IMHO, all bugs. It provides much better visibility of the issues at hand. And yes, I even think bugs that 'happen only with the Ubuntu builds, but not with the TDF builds' should be reported upstream. Here is why: Most of the time even those issues are root caused in upstream code, but do not manifest in the upstream builds. An example is fdo#68210, which: - was caused by changes in LibreOffice upstream - did NOT manifest in TDF or Debian build (both were not using mergedlibs) - did manifest in Ubuntu and Gentoo builds Pushing this "downstream" to distros too early only slows down communication -- as e.g. devs wont easily comment on other BTSes, and vice versa as accounts are missing. > => What bugs should be reported to distros? > > (Classic Example: Bug filed against EOL version supported in distro) For Ubuntu: Every bug that affect a supported version of Ubuntu should be reported to launchpad too, BUT -- and this is the important part -- with remote tracking the fdo bug[1] (and adding the launchpad bug in "see also:" on fdo). The only exception would be if its not supported anymore upstream (e.g. LibreOffice 3.5.7). This double bug tracking is some annoying overhead, so one has to consider if it is worth is: E.g. will there be downstream dupes of the bug anyway? Will there be valuable triage info from those (then its likely worth it)? etc. > => What bugs should be reported elsewhere? > > (e.g. Extension bugs go to extension devs?) If the root cause is by all likeliness not rooted in our code base (which is admittedly hard to guess often). > => What plans do we have in place to slurp-up bugs reported downstream? > > (Can we make it easier for downstream to push bugs to us? Bjoern - > Thoughts?) For launchpad there is launchpadlib: https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib which allows scripting in Python. This could be using to e.g.: - find all bugs on launchpad against "LibreOffice (ubuntu)" - copy the bug description into a new bug on fdo - link both bugs: - mark the fdo bug as a remote tracking bug in lp - add the lp bug as a "see also:" on fdo If someone volunteers on this I suggest getting in contact with Chris (https://launchpad.net/~penalvch) or Ubuntu Bugcontrol (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol). > => What should we support in the BSA? > > (The answer to this one depends upon our answers to the rest of the Q's) IMHO we already have a somewhat decent 'staging' of reports for upstream bugs: Inexperienced users might ask their incomplete bug reports/support requests on ask.libreoffice.org without needing anything but OpenID. Most of these reports are support requests and the rest need additional info to be complete bug reports anyway. As such, completing the report on ask and then file it on fdo (linking between both) does not seem too unattractive to me. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
For launchpad there is launchpadlib: https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib which allows scripting in Python. This could be using to e.g.: - find all bugs on launchpad against "LibreOffice (ubuntu)" - copy the bug description into a new bug on fdo - link both bugs: - mark the fdo bug as a remote tracking bug in lp - add the lp bug as a "see also:" on fdo If someone volunteers on this I suggest getting in contact with Chris (https://launchpad.net/~penalvch) or Ubuntu Bugcontrol (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol). Python only? -- Greetings, Rob Snelders ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 04:54:17PM +0100, Rob Snelders wrote: > Python only? launchpadlib is a Pythonlib. Of course, you can create a small wrapper script around it and then use it from other stuff. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi Thomas Thomas Hackert wrote >> But providing a valid email should be enough for all >> that. It should not be required to create an account. > > But how will you know, if it is a valid mail address? It could be an > one-way mail address or some fake address ... :( Remember all the > HowTos and documentation, which uses "example.com" address as an > example ... ;) Emails can be validated (in the same way your email client immediately informs you that an address is not valid: it checks with the target mail server) In any case if the user bothers to create an email account just to post a bug report, then he *really* wants to report the bug but he doesn't to be contacted! My experience is that I don't mind being contacted back if I report a bug but I won't register into yet another site just to report a bug (unless I start to use the bugged program regularly) I believe that it is important to get some feedback (even if it's hate feedback) from people who have a bad experience and are giving up on LO because of some initial obstacle... Maybe the obstacle is can be removed for others after them... Thomas Hackert wrote > Why do you think, it is for geeks? I mean, I am also not that geek, > when it comes to choosing the right component and the like, but I > prefer it over BSA ... ;) I'm sorry to tell you this: you collaborate in the QA of an Open Source project and therefore you are in the geek category :) Best regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081733.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi, Le 06/11/2013 17:08, Pedro a écrit : > Hi Thomas > > > Thomas Hackert wrote >>> But providing a valid email should be enough for all >>> that. It should not be required to create an account. >> >> But how will you know, if it is a valid mail address? It could be an >> one-way mail address or some fake address ... :( Remember all the >> HowTos and documentation, which uses "example.com" address as an >> example ... ;) > > Emails can be validated (in the same way your email client immediately > informs you that an address is not valid: it checks with the target mail > server) > In any case if the user bothers to create an email account just to post a > bug report, then he *really* wants to report the bug but he doesn't to be > contacted! > My experience is that I don't mind being contacted back if I report a bug > but I won't register into yet another site just to report a bug (unless I > start to use the bugged program regularly) > > I believe that it is important to get some feedback (even if it's hate > feedback) from people who have a bad experience and are giving up on LO > because of some initial obstacle... Maybe the obstacle is can be removed for > others after them... What we can see with the BSA in French, which in fact sends a mail with the BSA content to our QA list, is that people are not upset by being contacted to request more info, or even when they are in copy of the bug we have filled, they have always answered to our requests. And I think they are happy to see that their concerned have been heard. I think registration is much bothering than giving a e-mail and being contacted back. > > > Thomas Hackert wrote >> Why do you think, it is for geeks? I mean, I am also not that geek, >> when it comes to choosing the right component and the like, but I >> prefer it over BSA ... ;) > > I'm sorry to tell you this: you collaborate in the QA of an Open Source > project and therefore you are in the geek category :) hehe :) Kind regards Sophie ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hello Pedro, *, On Mittwoch, 6. November 2013 17:08 Pedro wrote: > Thomas Hackert wrote >>> But providing a valid email should be enough for all >>> that. It should not be required to create an account. >> >> But how will you know, if it is a valid mail address? It could be >> an one-way mail address or some fake address ... :( Remember all >> the HowTos and documentation, which uses "example.com" address as >> an example ... ;) > > Emails can be validated (in the same way your email client > immediately informs you that an address is not valid: it checks > with the target mail server) really? I seem to remember, that I have heard/read somewhere, that it is not that difficult to configure your MUA to fool the receiver with a different mail address ... ;) But I am not sure, where it was or how has told it ... :( But I remember a friend of mine, who changed his MUA that way, that it seems to be a mail of a celebrity, although it was only him ... ;) > In any case if the user bothers to create an email account just to > post a bug report, then he *really* wants to report the bug but he > doesn't to be contacted! O.K. > My experience is that I don't mind being contacted back if I > report a bug but I won't register into yet another site just to > report a bug (unless I start to use the bugged program regularly) I would not do it nowadays again, but still have a couple of accounts on different bugtrackers ... ;) > I believe that it is important to get some feedback (even if it's > hate feedback) from people who have a bad experience and are > giving up on LO because of some initial obstacle... Maybe the > obstacle is can be removed for others after them... Well, in my experience a lot of these "bad experience"s of users were mostly PEBKACs ... :( And then getting some kind of flame mail is IMHO not that helpful ... :( > Thomas Hackert wrote >> Why do you think, it is for geeks? I mean, I am also not that >> geek, when it comes to choosing the right component and the like, >> but I prefer it over BSA ... ;) > > I'm sorry to tell you this: you collaborate in the QA of an Open > Source project and therefore you are in the geek category :) Oh, you too are collaborating here to improve LO to some amount here, so ... ;) Thank you for your answer Thomas. -- Porsche: there simply is no substitute. -- Risky Business ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:14 AM, bjoern wrote: > On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 08:46:36AM -0500, Robinson Tryon wrote: >> => What bugs should be reported to our LibreOffice bugtracker? > > IMHO, all bugs. It provides much better visibility of the issues at hand. And > yes, I even think bugs that 'happen only with the Ubuntu builds, but not with > the TDF builds' should be reported upstream. Here is why: Most of the time > even > those issues are root caused in upstream code, but do not manifest in the > upstream builds. An example is fdo#68210, which: > - was caused by changes in LibreOffice upstream > - did NOT manifest in TDF or Debian build (both were not using mergedlibs) > - did manifest in Ubuntu and Gentoo builds > > Pushing this "downstream" to distros too early only slows down communication > -- > as e.g. devs wont easily comment on other BTSes, and vice versa as accounts > are > missing. Very interesting. So we've got the minimalist approach: Only accept bugs filed against TDF builds, and the "Get all the bugsand thus all of the data". Regarding bugs in other BTSes, it makes perfect sense that LibreOffice devs won't necessarily look in or have accounts for each distro. My general hope would be that maintainers/packagers would push bugs up to FDO, but regardless of how on-the-ball these people are, it's true that there's still going to be a delay, and there's still an added piece of technical/meatspace complexity subject to failure. >> => What bugs should be reported to distros? >> >> (Classic Example: Bug filed against EOL version supported in distro) > > For Ubuntu: Every bug that affect a supported version of Ubuntu should be > reported to launchpad too, BUT -- and this is the important part -- with > remote > tracking the fdo bug[1] (and adding the launchpad bug in "see also:" on fdo). > The > only exception would be if its not supported anymore upstream (e.g. > LibreOffice > 3.5.7). Drawing a dividing line between TDF-supported and EOL builds sounds good to me, but from a user perspective (and even from a LO community perspective), that line is much harder to keep track of than a dichotomy such as TDF build vs. Distro build. Our current discussion point re: limiting the BSA to only TDF-supported builds of LibreOffice seems like it could be very helpful in simplifying the bug-reporting process. It would be great if our process was as simple as "Go to the BSA, and follow the instructions there". Given that users currently have to have an FDO account before they can use the BSA, it would be nice if we could determine their LO version *before* we require a login so we could ask them to... - Download a supported build of LibreOffice or - File a bug with their distro Rob -- Any suggestions on how we might accomplish that with the BSA? > This double bug tracking is some annoying overhead, so one has to consider if > it is worth is: E.g. will there be downstream dupes of the bug anyway? Will > there be valuable triage info from those (then its likely worth it)? etc. If the devs could be best-served by having the bug reports in our bug tracker, then that seems like a reasonable place for them to live. As long as we're willing to resolve bugs as NOREPRO, we can stay on top of the volume of bug reports and keep our development process from drowning in input that's not actionable. >> => What bugs should be reported elsewhere? >> >> (e.g. Extension bugs go to extension devs?) > > If the root cause is by all likeliness not rooted in our code base (which is > admittedly hard to guess often). True, true. >> => What plans do we have in place to slurp-up bugs reported downstream? >> >> (Can we make it easier for downstream to push bugs to us? Bjoern - >> Thoughts?) > > For launchpad there is launchpadlib: > > https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib > > which allows scripting in Python. This could be using to e.g.: > - find all bugs on launchpad against "LibreOffice (ubuntu)" > - copy the bug description into a new bug on fdo > - link both bugs: > - mark the fdo bug as a remote tracking bug in lp > - add the lp bug as a "see also:" on fdo > > If someone volunteers on this I suggest getting in contact with Chris > (https://launchpad.net/~penalvch) or Ubuntu Bugcontrol > (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol). That would be a great way to get downstream-filed bugs into Bugzilla. I'm sure that other distros are using other tools, but given our large number of Ubuntu users, this seems like a great place to start. >> => What should we support in the BSA? >> >> (The answer to this one depends upon our answers to the rest of the Q's) > > IMHO we already have a somewhat decent 'staging' of reports for upstream bugs: > Inexperienced users might ask their incomplete bug reports/support requests on > ask.libreoffice.org without needing anything but OpenID. Most of these reports > are support requests and the rest need additional info to be complete bug > reports anyway. As such, co
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi, On 06-11-13 17:48, Thomas Hackert wrote: Hello Pedro, *, On Mittwoch, 6. November 2013 17:08 Pedro wrote: Thomas Hackert wrote But providing a valid email should be enough for all that. It should not be required to create an account. But how will you know, if it is a valid mail address? It could be an one-way mail address or some fake address ... :( Remember all the HowTos and documentation, which uses "example.com" address as an example ... ;) Emails can be validated (in the same way your email client immediately informs you that an address is not valid: it checks with the target mail server) really? I seem to remember, that I have heard/read somewhere, that it is not that difficult to configure your MUA to fool the receiver with a different mail address ... ;) But I am not sure, where it was or how has told it ... :( But I remember a friend of mine, who changed his MUA that way, that it seems to be a mail of a celebrity, although it was only him ... ;) I have always learned to turn that feature off. So you can't verify a mail-address against the mailserver I maintained. I don't think I'm the only one as that is a way to fight spam. So they can't file bugs anymore? In any case if the user bothers to create an email account just to post a bug report, then he *really* wants to report the bug but he doesn't to be contacted! O.K. I have yet to see a valid other way, and somebody to implement such feature. I think we should at least make the registration-requirement later in the process but even that I haven't implemented yet due to time shortage/other features to implement. -- Greetings, Rob ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Hi Rob Rob Snelders-2 wrote >>> Emails can be validated (in the same way your email client >>> immediately informs you that an address is not valid: it checks >>> with the target mail server) > > I have always learned to turn that feature off. So you can't verify a > mail-address against the mailserver I maintained. I don't think I'm the > only one as that is a way to fight spam. So they can't file bugs anymore? I was thinking about regular people who use regular mails. Not people running their own servers... And the answer would be no, they couldn't. But then again, you can't register to Bugzilla without a valid email, so I can't see why people are arguing against my suggestion... https://bugs.freedesktop.org/createaccount.cgi Rob Snelders-2 wrote > I think we should at least make the registration-requirement > later in the process I disagree. I think that the requirements must be obvious from the start. If a registration is required the user should know and agree with it. When I come across sites that do those kind of tricks, my reaction is to close the page immediately. And then the site looses my feedback and I am pissed because I wasted my time... -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081765.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
On 06-11-13 19:08, Pedro wrote: Hi Rob Rob Snelders-2 wrote Emails can be validated (in the same way your email client immediately informs you that an address is not valid: it checks with the target mail server) I have always learned to turn that feature off. So you can't verify a mail-address against the mailserver I maintained. I don't think I'm the only one as that is a way to fight spam. So they can't file bugs anymore? I was thinking about regular people who use regular mails. Not people running their own servers... I think that a lot of hardcore users would be mad if you exclude them. I wouldn't want that, as some of our developers are those users, I for example wouldn't be able to work on the BSA anymore. So a big NO against any such rule. And the answer would be no, they couldn't. But then again, you can't register to Bugzilla without a valid email, so I can't see why people are arguing against my suggestion... https://bugs.freedesktop.org/createaccount.cgi Ah.. the bugzilla-page you are pointing to doesn't do that either. It just does a simple regex-test (which only validates if the text entered could be a email-address) and then sends you a email. That is a totaly different process then you explained. Rob Snelders-2 wrote I think we should at least make the registration-requirement later in the process I disagree. I think that the requirements must be obvious from the start. If a registration is required the user should know and agree with it. When I come across sites that do those kind of tricks, my reaction is to close the page immediately. And then the site looses my feedback and I am pissed because I wasted my time... Ok. Maybe I explained it wrong. The login is explained and you can see the login-button from the start. But you are not required to login/create a account until the last step. Is that better or still a bad idea? -- Greetings, Rob ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Pedro wrote > My experience is that I don't mind being contacted back if I report a bug > but I won't register into yet another site just to report a bug (unless I > start to use the bugged program regularly) Hi! Many bugs are reported by users who forgot about their reports. When asked to provide more details (for instance by NEEDINFO mass mail) they are noticing that the bug is already fixed, they provide additional infos or just write that they don't use LO or care anymore. If such bug is hard to reproduce, do not have a cc list and do not have obvious duplicate should we care? I do not think that we should babysit bug reports - already there are a lot of them in fdo, not mentioning other bug-trackers (novell, redhat), or those on aoo issues system. If you do not want to register - then in Bugzilla world you just do not care about a bug. File and forget is not a way to do bug reports imho. Best regards. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081779.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:58 PM, bfoman wrote: > Many bugs are reported by users who forgot about their reports. When asked > to provide more details (for instance by NEEDINFO mass mail) they [...] > don't use LO or care anymore. [...] > I do not think that we should babysit bug reports - already there are > a lot of them in fdo, not mentioning other bug-trackers (novell, redhat), or > those on aoo issues system. >From a big-picture perspective, I don't think unanswered NEEDINFO requests are our biggest problem (Joel - Stats?). I think that we have issues 1) Triaging all of our bug reports promptly 2) Fixing all of our bugs promptly Right now we have a policy of closing old NEEDINFO bugs, so those bugs will eventually die. They might seem like clutter in the meantime, and we should examine how much time we spend on reports that just end up in the NEEDINFO pile, abandoned by the bug reporter, but that's a separate issue. > If you do not want to register - then in Bugzilla world you just do not care > about a bug. File and forget is not a way to do bug reports imho. Solid stats here would be very helpful. - What percentage of bug reports get triaged to NEEDINFO and go nowhere? - Users will lose interest if we take a long time to triage bugs. If we triage within a day vs. week vs. month, how much more likely will we get a response? (i.e. What's the critical window in which we need to address our bug reports?) Also: How many bug reports require communication with the bug reporter? If someone reports a typo and we fix it, the original report is usually all we need. --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
Rob Snelders-3 wrote > I think that a lot of hardcore users would be mad if you exclude them. I > wouldn't want that, as some of our developers are those users, I for > example wouldn't be able to work on the BSA anymore. So a big NO against > any such rule. We are discussing about a simplified method for a newbie to submit some report... How did this escalate to hardcore developers? Hardcore developers should subscribe to Bugzilla the standard way :) This is about a *user* friendly email verification for first users. Rob Snelders-3 wrote > Ah.. the bugzilla-page you are pointing to doesn't do that either. It > just does a simple regex-test (which only validates if the text entered > could be a email-address) and then sends you a email. That is a totally > different process then you explained. Yes, I know the method is different. I never imagined that validating an email address would be such a problem... Rob Snelders-3 wrote > Ok. Maybe I explained it wrong. The login is explained and you can see > the login-button from the start. But you are not required to > login/create a account until the last step. Is that better or still a > bad idea? That is obviously better than having the login as the first step and if it is clear that it is a requirement then it allows the user to choose if he wants to continue. I just realized that once logged to BSA I can't log out :) BSA is a BIG improvement over Bugzilla but it is still too technical... Isn't it much nicer "LibreOffice version you were using" instead of "Version the bug appeared"? My 2 cents ;) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081788.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Where should users report bugs?
bfoman wrote > I do not think that we should babysit bug reports - already there are a > lot of them in fdo, not mentioning other bug-trackers (novell, redhat), or > those on aoo issues system. Yes, there are too many bugs in fdo. Both because the project has very little QA people and also because some bugs are boring to fix... bfoman wrote > If you do not want to register - then in Bugzilla world you just do not > care about a bug. File and forget is not a way to do bug reports imho. I agree that in a perfect world people should contribute and care. But in the end it is not the user who has a problem. The obstacle is in the software. The user may choose to live with it or to abandon the software. He/she may choose to contribute by reporting it so that it is fixed/improved even if he/she has already moved on and the community should be thankful for that. In the end it is the software that has the problem. Then it is up to QA to verify it and the Devs to fix it so that the problem does not affect present and potential users. Another 2 cents ;) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Where-should-users-report-bugs-tp4081505p4081806.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
